214: Climate Week NYC: Love is the Answer

Tom: [00:04:34] Great. Okay. So so so let me give you some of my observations that I am incredibly sure that you're drawing your own conclusions from afar, because I know you're watching what's going on here. The first thing to say is that as you exactly as you say, Climate Week is basically a spin out of this largest of of most important international geopolitical moments of the UN General Assembly. And and going back all those years to when you and I have been here Christiana, Climate Week swirls around the core and the core is the heads of state showing up, showing the way of climate ambition, of doubling down on what they should be doing, and then that leads to an interplay between that very high level of geopolitics, the non-state actors, the investors, the businesses, everyone kind of comes in and out and interacts with that. And that is what leads to the momentum that comes often out of UN General Assembly week, particularly when the Secretary General is hosting a Climate Summit as he's hosting this week. Now, this year is is really weird and I've been reflecting quite a lot on what's been happening. And I think that we have a situation where there is more activity than ever in the climate week part of it. I mean, the furious pace of meetings and receptions and all these other different things and good things happening all across New York with different stakeholders coming together. But I just can't shake the feeling that right at the heart we don't have that core of momentum being built because we don't have the heads of state showing up, talking about climate, doing deals, partnering with others. And you have encapsulated very well there the principal reason for that right, which is that many of them just aren't here.

Tom: [00:06:12] So it's we should get into why that is. But I have been having various different conversations. I've been in the UN a bit, but, you know, I've been outside as well. I had dinner last night sitting next to the Foreign Minister of a G7 country and also next to the Ambassador to Washington of a Western European country. And honestly, the we had various parts of the conversation, but a big part was about their concern about the UN's ability to solve the problems of the 21st century. And that started, of course, with geopolitics of war in Ukraine. But it pretty quickly went to climate change. And the tone that I was hearing there is that there have been some geostrategic mistakes of tone and of content from some elements of the leadership that have been pushing for and potentially in some people's minds, such a stratospheric level of compliance with an idea about what should be done, that many people can't meet that standard. And that's led to a falling back of participation from all stakeholders, from businesses, from governments and non-state actors. And what that's meant is that the momentum has just crumpled in on itself. From that perspective, and it gets mired in bureaucracy and, you know, and are we doing enough and tracking and all these other things. But what we miss is the essential essence of that wave of possibility that ultimately crashes over us and carries us forward, it on the outside, it's very weird. It's like a sort of tale of two cities. On the outside it feels like that's present, people are driving forward investing, on the inside, it feels bureaucratic, it feels mired in process. It doesn't feel like it has that vision and momentum that we so desperately need.

Christiana: [00:07:57] Well, Tom, I dare say that that description is one that we will have to ditto and repeat at COP 28. I think we will have a very, very similar situation in which governments are mired in, I don't know, fighting with each other, polarizing each other and holding each other to account, accusing each other etc etc etc etc. With very, very concerning language, I mean, the language that is being used, I'm just appalled because it does not call forth for collaboration and cooperation here at all. And yet you have total contrast program, right? Total contrast program. The tone among governments is is one of polarization and blame and the tone outside in what we can call the real economy is actually one of excitement, of increasing pace of change, of possibility. And then, of course, all of that you have to put into the bigger pocket of what science is saying. And science is saying, dudes, you are so running out of time. Right? So it's very interesting that you have these three tones there that I don't know, Tom, it seems to me like they're not intermingling, They're not talking to each other. It's almost like you have three universes with no Venn diagram between them.

Tom: [00:09:37] Right. And that's a really interesting analysis. And there are some points of intersection in unlikely places. So the march was interesting. I went on part of it and we're going to hear a bit later one of the vignettes from Mary Robinson, who I spoke to, who talked there. And then after that there was a roundtable I was participating in that had CEOs of some of the largest companies here, as well as some of the most prominent activists and school strikers. And the roundtable was kind of facilitated about what really unites us. And it was a joyful experience, actually, because for the first time, apart from some of the retreats that you've been so important in organizing Christiana, I felt a sense of common purpose. The biggest, why, of why are we doing this? Actually, there was, and many of these people have actually been on these retreats. There was kind of a breaking open and a realization that the spirit and the desire that animates a net zero commitment from a car company and someone gluing themselves, you know, to the road in front of a building actually had a unifying collective spirit behind it. And there was a unity, which we've always talked about, right. And to see that in the room was really something. 

Christiana: [00:10:38] Fantastic.

Tom: [00:10:38] But that was that was collaboration and crossover of Venn diagrams between two groups who are on the outside, right? That didn't Venn diagram over into the the thing in the middle of the swirl, which should be the General Assembly, which should be the engine of momentum that actually drives and that we all respond to. And we're recording this on Wednesday morning. Today is the day of the UN General Assembly, of the UN Secretary General's Climate Summit. I mean I sort of exposed myself potentially here for saying something that will be wrong by the time we put it out. But I've heard a lot of concern about it, to be honest with you, because what I've heard there is that there has been a tendency to set, again, set the bar really high for participation and to hope. And there's nothing wrong with doing this right in theory to set the bar really high and hope that because everybody wants to then get over that bar and be at the summit, people will jump and will improve. But that the bar was just too high for people to reach. And so therefore, the net effect of that is not going to be the overwhelming momentum that we hoped it would be. It would be something a little bit in the middle that maybe has a lot of integrity but doesn't have the momentum that we need.

Paul: [00:11:44] Well, maybe.

Tom: [00:11:45] Maybe.

Paul: [00:11:47] I'm reading a story here from 2011 that a lot of people missed, and that is that Belgium had not had a government for over 15 months. And during that time their economy had outperformed the UK, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands, Finland and Switzerland. What I'm driving at is that we have for a very good reason, seen national governments as incredibly important. They are. We have seen geopolitical drama grow up like we never imagined it would. And people talking uncouplings and the strains over Ukraine and all the rest of it. And then there's a story of a great coming together between, for example, activists and non-state actors, corporations, investors, cities. An amazing announcement with the Climate Pledge and the C40 about electrification of vehicles. You know, I think nature finds a way and we should be very worried, very concerned about those geopolitical tensions at the international level between nation states spilling over, and we all must attend to that. But let's also kind of notice and celebrate that the will of the people of the world to resolve this problem is finding other channels of expression.

Christiana: [00:12:51] So where are you, what is your sense, Tom, if we move taking a page there from Paul, if we move to corporates in New York right now and you were present at the Climate Pledge Summit, which is a mini mini reality, but a pretty impressive one.

Paul: [00:13:17] Growing.

Christiana: [00:13:18] What is your sense from that but also from other conversations that you may have been having of where are corporates, especially with respect to that challenge that you pointed out with this expectation of perfection in a very, very high bar. How are corporates reacting to that?

Tom: [00:13:43] Yeah, it's a great question. Let's go there. I want to just share one more quick thing about the General Assembly before we leave off the governments, which is part of this dinner I had last night as well. And you will recognize this, Christiana, we talked about this last week. So this Foreign Minister of Foreign Affairs was sharing that in, in this person's experience of going to the G20 in the recent heads of state. The swagger has been returning to Lavrov, in particular, the Russian Minister of Foreign affairs, as he sees in his perception and in her analysis, some deeper element of Western unity crumble on Ukraine. Principally the G20 statement and the analysis that was given to me is that today and tomorrow he will sit in the Security Council room and face off personally against Zelensky. Now that's going to be behind closed doors. But I mean, honestly, it sent shivers down my spine, the idea of the audacity of doing that. And I think that will then turn into I don't know what that will turn into, but that's, I thought, an interesting insight into the changing posture of Russia with regards to that war.

Christiana: [00:14:45] Yeah, that G20 watered down statement. There were many positive things that came out of the G20, but the fact that the position on the Russian invasion of Ukraine was watered down from last year was hugely concerning then. And we talked about it last week on the podcast. But now the repercussion for New York, that is huge.

Tom: [00:15:08] Yeah. So to your question, I mean, I think that, I think there's again, a mini tale of two cities. I mean, it's a sort of fragmentation to a certain degree of our universe, although I like Paul's optimism. I'm seeing in the people that I'm meeting, and it's a qualitative assessment because I've met a lot of different businesses, but I've sort of been doing more meetings and sitting in lots of conference rooms. There is a doubling down on a commitment to the outcome. There is a realization that we have real momentum behind us because the data is now demonstrating that actually the solutions are so economically beneficial writ large across the world in all geographies. There is a concern about how is this done. It feels like it's obviously not the straight shot it was in the past where you make a commitment, you go ahead and do it and that yields just great benefits for you as a corporate reputation. It feels like you enter into a very complicated world of stakeholder management where some people are going to say, you're not going fast enough, some people are going to say you're wasting money.

Tom: [00:16:11] Other people are going to say you're a woke capitalist. And so there's a sort of a sort of hesitancy and a degree of, just kind of not quite knowing what to do next. I think from many people, of a realization we want to keep going. No one wants to say, we're not going to do this anymore. Everyone is in this for the right reasons, but nobody quite knows how to like make the case in the way that they did before. It doesn't quite work anymore. So people are experimenting with different things and driving forward. And you said about the Climate Pledge, I mean, now pivoting to, you know, enormous amounts of implemented action, that's really exciting. That's happening in other areas as well, which is great. But that I feel like I'm seeing play out some of the dynamics we've talked about of both commitments, maybe there's some greenwashing, there's certainly a lot of green hushing. There's, people don't really know what to do, I think, at this moment in that regard.

Paul: [00:17:01] And maybe, you know, that's one thing I thought was so exciting about the Climate Pledge getting together with the C40 to accelerate the electrification of vehicles, particularly, you know, working with cities, this massive network of cities, because as Mark Watts has pointed out, you know, the C40 members are regulators themselves. So we might once again have this dysfunction at the national government level. But the degree to which city governments and business can just plow ahead, accelerate deployment, that I think is something we can be positive and optimistic about. So it is indeed a tale of two cities, dysfunction at one geopolitical level, but people really getting on with things at the other level.

Tom: [00:17:35] Hmm.

Christiana: [00:17:36] So Tom, in addition to all of your, you know, white tablecloth and candlelit dinners.

Paul: [00:17:43] Wining, dining.

Christiana: [00:17:44] With all these famous people.

Tom: [00:17:46] I haven't seen a single candle. I must point out.

Christiana: [00:17:48] Hold on. Are you actually doing some work for this podcast? Are you actually doing what you said you would do, which is have your microphone with you and interview some people for us? How's that going Tom? 

Paul: [00:18:00] Lunches, breakfasts, drinks, canapes. 

Tom: [00:18:01] So I have actually carried my heavy microphone around New York all week, but I haven't used it once. But that doesn't mean I haven't been working. So I've just been using my phone and recording voice notes when I see people. So yes, it's been great. And actually we've had some fantastic comments from many of our friends. You'll recognize all of them.

Christiana: [00:18:16] Fantastic. And so we can drop them in here.

Tom: [00:18:18] Yes, let's drop them in. So we're going to kick off, I think, with Sally Fouts, Director of the Climate Pledge at Amazon. She and I have been together several times throughout the week, most recently at Goals House, which is in Central Park and has been sort of a centre of many different events. And I caught up with Sally after an event with Mastercard. So I'm standing here with Sally Fouts, good friend from Amazon, Director of the Climate Pledge. It's so nice to see you. I see you at these different events around the world, yeah.

Sally Fouts: [00:18:44] Yeah, it's great to see you, Tom. It's fun to catch up.

Tom: [00:18:47] So listen, you know, you are now something of a veteran of these events, having gotten into the climate space some years ago with the Climate Pledge, going to COPs, coming to these, I'd love to hear first your kind of broad analysis of like, you know, how does it feel to be here this week? Are you do you feel like it's the same as previous years? Do you notice any difference? What are your impressions?

Sally Fouts: [00:19:05] Yeah, I mean, it's day two, but honestly, I feel like there's a lot of energy this year. It feels maybe it's because the sun's out today. I don't know what it is, but there feels like there's a real tangible energy in the air. We're seeing a lot of momentum. You know, speaking on behalf of the Climate Pledge, we've seen lots of interest in companies joining. We you know, we're up to more than 430 companies now. And a lot of them want to work with us on projects, work together on projects. So it's been really exciting to see that kind of shift into real action and momentum.

Tom: [00:19:36] Amazing. And you have, I know there are events on that this week. Just tell us a word about that.

Sally Fouts: [00:19:40] Yeah, we have our second annual Climate Pledge Summit event on Thursday, which is an event just for signatories of the Climate Pledge. And we'll go through a variety of topics and speakers and we're really excited to just bring that community together. We'll have working sessions where companies can come together to, you know, talk about really hard issues and how they can work together to solve them. And, you know, one of one of the projects that will be featured there actually was just announced today, and that is a project with C40 to engage cities on decarbonization of their middle mile transport. So that will be one of the many topics that we'll cover on Thursday, but really excited for it.

Tom: [00:20:17] To drive collaboration. Amazing. Sally, thank you so much. Look forward to seeing you throughout the week.

Sally Fouts: [00:20:20] Likewise, Tom.

Paul: [00:20:22] Let's hear from Mary Robinson. She spoke regarding the climate march, right?

Tom: [00:20:30] Mary, it's been a huge pleasure to run into you in the B team workshop here. After ten years of the B team, you've had the most amazing day so far where you've not only participated in, but also addressed the march of a couple of hundred thousand people. I'd love to hear. How are you feeling on the first day of the of Climate Week? What's been achieved there and what you're hoping for?

Mary Robinson: [00:20:46] I thought it was important as Chair of the Elders to begin this Climate Week, as far as I'm concerned, by taking part in that march that is to end fossil fuels, I kept emphasizing with just transition, remembering the workers in coal and oil and gas and indeed in my country peat, they need just transition and that costs money. Governments have to put up that money and we have to talk in terms of bringing people with us. But the Elders have taken part in marches before. And, you know, I'm aware we want to align with those who are really calling for much more change than we're seeing and much more courage in the leaders. And what we need is to build up a broader movement that will actually influence, especially Democratic leaders. They won't take hard decisions at the moment because they want to get re-elected and they think if they take hard decisions, they won't get re-elected. So we need the pressure on them to say we actually want to stop subsidizing what's harming us, to move, to incentivize clean energy, which obviously the Inflation Reduction Act of President Biden does. But then the United States is not cutting fossil fuel. There was a lot of reference to, you know, the fact that it's expanding and it's as if we're not realizing the danger we're in. I will take part tomorrow as a Guardian of the Planetary Boundaries which we're launching and I've known Johan Rockström's work since 2015 and very much admired it. We need a good scientific framing of where we are, and we need to understand that as humans, we are part of nature. We are nature. We're not separate from it and we're destroying the ecosystems. And so being at the march was a good start from my point of view. The rest I can talk about, but I was glad to be there.

Tom: [00:22:48] Mary, you're always so inspiring. It's wonderful to run into you. One quick word. How was the vibe at the march? Was it joyful and fun?

Mary Robinson: [00:22:53] It was a bit of fun all right. Yes. But there was an underlying anger. Yeah. People are really angry that we're still subsidizing to such an extent what is destroying us and that leaders are so slow to change and that the system is so unequal and just simply not catering for the realities of people's lives.

Tom: [00:23:18] Thank you so much. Now, as you will know, Christiana, and you as well, Paul, one of the cardinal mistakes of Climate Week is getting into a car, which always takes about 20 times longer.

Paul: [00:23:27] Why would you do that? The whole of the Upper East Side is closed down. You're out of your mind.

Tom: [00:23:32] I know. But every now and then I make the mistake once every year and get into a car and it takes me three hours to cover four blocks. But in one instance, it was great actually, because I was in the car with Celine Herweijer, the Chief Sustainability Officer of HSBC,  Ellen Jackowski, the Chief Sustainability Officer of Mastercard, and Isabelle Offer, who is a young, brilliant, emerging photographer from New York. So the three of us, four of us, including me, travelled a few blocks to an event. And of course, I thought it would be a good opportunity to record them. So here they are.

Christiana: [00:23:59] Yay!

Tom: [00:24:01] All right. Ellen's ready. Okay, Ellen, Ellen Jackowski, friend of the podcast. You've been on before. Tell me, how's UNGA look to you?

Ellen Jackowski: [00:24:12] Well, per usual, my agenda is very packed, but I've come with an agenda as well, and that's what I'm really excited about. Mastercard is focusing on how do we drive sustainable consumption across our value chain from our 90 million merchants all the way down to our 3 billion cardholders. And there are so many people here who can help us accelerate this work. So I'm here on the hunt for new partnerships, new ideas, new action to do together in partnership with the tremendous thought leaders that have all come to New York.

Tom: [00:24:45] Amazing. All right. Love it. Sustainable consumption. Now, I'm going to go to Celine  in just a minute, we don't often get a chance to ask people, what does UN Climate Week look like for somebody who is in a different era? I've got Isabelle Offer in the car here, the most amazing emerging photographer. Just give us a couple of sentences. What do you think? The world comes to New York for Climate Week, one week a year. Does it make a difference?

Isabelle Offer: [00:25:05] Well, I think I'd wish that, you know, people of different areas like of different generations were a part of this more like, I felt like it was definitely only a specific group of people that were there. I don't know, in my eyes, I maybe hope more people were aware and maybe more people could put their input into these conversations. I don't know, maybe it's already happening, but I don't, I don't know because I think then maybe the whole world would definitely know that it was Climate Week, because I'm sure most of my friends have no idea all the amazing events going on this week.

Tom: [00:25:44] It always strikes me that, I think it's a great point. It always strikes me that it doesn't integrate across generations and it doesn't really integrate into New York. So I think it's a really good point. Celine, HSBC, are you ready to give us a couple of thoughts?

Celine Herweijer: [00:25:55] I'm ready, I'm ready to give you a couple of thoughts. So, I mean, we are not far away from 2024, which means we're six years away from 2030. We've got a is it 43% emissions cuts by 2030? We're way off track. COP 28 around the corner. I think in general, people are here to try and again, look at how we can speed up action, partnerships, collaboration. There's a lot of financial sector actors here this year. We're here. We're going to do probably some big announcements around the climate tech and financing space. I think for us as a bank, we sit here, we look at $150 trillion needed to finance the transition in the next three decades. So there's a huge role that all banks, all financial actors need to play to channel that finance, of which 60% is in emerging economies, which is the intersection of the SDGs, is therefore critical in that. But I think in general at the moment, it's interesting. There's a you know, there's a lot happening, but we're still way short of where we need to be. And I think this is the exact warm up that we need to COP 28 and hopefully have a positive outcome at COP coming up. But yeah, interesting as always.

Tom: [00:27:08] Amazing. All right. Well, still only Sunday night, a long week to go. Very happy and lucky to be in the car with three brilliant women going to the B team reception. So thank you all.

Christiana: [00:27:19] Tom, there's a part of me that is having a little bit of a deja vu here because. 

Tom: [00:27:27] Me too.

Christiana: [00:27:28] In the, in the face of national governments having a really hard time on big strategic geopolitical invasions, security council etc etc etc. But that rubs off on climate as well, in the face of them having a very hard time. I'm having a deja vu about the fact that while that is true, we are actually seeing cities move forward, states move forward, corporations move forward, civil society move forward. It is very much of a 2014 2015 spirit, I would say. And I just wondered whether you might be able to compare that. Is that actually true? What are you seeing on the part of cities, states, regions? How, what sense are you getting there?

Tom: [00:28:28] Well, I mean, the interesting element about your question is the interaction between the two. And I actually think that that's where that analogy doesn't hold true, although it holds true in other ways. I mean, my memory of 2014, 2015 is that there was what became known as the ambition loop, right? So that you would then see investors would make commitments that would drive corporations forward. The movement of corporations would drive down costs, we'd then see cities and regions move forward. That would give confidence to governments, and then their movement would build momentum for civil society. And wherever you started and however you describe that loop, those different players would interact and their ambition rubbed off against each other, which I think was the key we've talked about to the Paris Agreement and other breakthroughs in those days.

Christiana: [00:29:10] An ambition loop that was intentionally created.

Tom: [00:29:13] Right, exactly. It was a strategic design, right. And in the end, it and like all good strategies in the end sort of went outside of anybody's control and ran off on its own, which is what needs to happen. Whereas this week what you have is, you know, momentum and, you know, forward momentum certainly from some of those other non-state actors. But as I said earlier, with that little tinge of complexity around how do we present it and what do we do. But at the same time as all of that's happening, for example, Rishi Sunak is back in London watering down the UK climate commitments. We have this, you know, situation where it's not leading to an ambition loop and you see instead a breakdown where national governments, in many cases not all, are actually pandering to short term political interests that they are regarding as you know, I mean, in the UK, for example, the Daily Mail have been running this Save our Boilers campaign, for God's sake, where they're trying to prevent us from.

Paul: [00:30:08] Save our asbestos, keep cigarettes, you know.

Tom: [00:30:11] Yeah exactly. From trying to prevent the government from mandating the removal of gas boilers and the introduction of heat pumps. I mean, it's just, you know, sort of the nostalgia for gas boilers beggars belief. And we now have political leadership listening to that and pandering to those interests rather than the industries of the future that want to rely on the vision and the leadership of countries like the UK to say that they're going to do what they said they'd do. So I think that that loop and that interaction isn't functioning in the way that it should, and that's part of our problem.

Christiana: [00:30:42] And then of course, shining light, there is California.

Paul: [00:30:45] Am I right in thinking that you got to speak to the rather brilliant Wade Crowfoot, who I think is the Secretary of California's National Resources Board, is that right?

Tom: [00:30:55] He is, and actually so he came to a workshop that I was hosting. And also I've long admired, you may not remember this, but when Trump went to California a few years ago and said that, and said that the forest wouldn't burn if we swept them properly, Wade was the guy who just publicly took him down and just was absolutely fearless in telling him he was an idiot. And so he's long been sort of a hero of mine. So it was lovely to see him in this workshop and he's very compelling. So here he is. So, Secretary Crowfoot, California Natural Resources, it's so good to meet you. I've been such a long admirer of everything you guys are doing.

Secretary Crowfoot: [00:31:29] Well, thank you. I'm excited to be here at Climate Week. I mean, you can feel the energy.

Tom: [00:31:33] And a big week for California apart from anything else, right? Your governor signing these bills yesterday. Just give us a word about that. And then I want to hear your overall reflections of being here. 

Secretary Crowfoot: [00:31:41] Yeah, so our state leaders have come together and said carbon disclosure is critically important. And so we have passed and the Governor has announced he will sign landmark legislation that requires essentially disclosure of carbon emissions for our largest companies in California. We think it's a model that the rest of the world can emulate.

Tom: [00:31:58] So that's obviously going to go well beyond California because so many companies operate there. So that's actually going to be systemically, hugely relevant for the global economy.

Secretary Crowfoot: [00:32:05] Well, and we're fortunate that some of the world's largest and still fastest growing companies are headquartered in California. So you're right. We do think it has a global implication. 

Tom: [00:32:13] I think it's fascinating. And I know there was a lot of uncertainty about whether he was going to sign it right away. And then he just came out and did it on the first day of Climate Week.

Secretary Crowfoot: [00:32:18] That's the beauty of Climate Week, is it's a platform. And of course, our Governor also announced that California will be suing big oil companies for what is a decades actually of deceit as it relates to the impact of combusting fossil fuels on climate change. This builds on other lawsuits of course, we're excited to bring the size and scale of California into this fight. 

Tom: [00:32:42] Amazing. And tell us a bit, because your job is very interesting. You look at resilience, natural ecosystems, of course, fires in California. How do things look from where you sit at the moment? 

Secretary Crowfoot: [00:32:51] Well 20 years ago, climate adaptation was sort of the nerdy, wonky side of the climate action movement because it always seemed like it's in the future. What we realize, you know, now is it's a matter of life and death. And so we're protecting Californians from wildfires, droughts, floods, extreme heat. These are all extremes we've never experienced to the extent we are now experiencing them. We know this is happening in other parts of the world, Canada, Hawaii, Greece with the wildfires this summer. Increasingly, we know that keeping our people safe, building our resilience has to happen with the charge towards carbon neutrality. So in California, which we're known for emission reductions and technology advancements, we're now focused on actually pairing that with climate resilience and protecting and restoring nature. We think you need all three. 

Tom: [00:33:34] Amazing. Okay, and final question, impressions of being here at UN General Assembly Week. What do you think?

Secretary Crowfoot: [00:33:38] Always critically important to get people together. And we heard this morning from some of our colleagues in the global South just talk about the real impacts of climate change and continued inequities in the work that we do. So to me, it's a bit of a reality check. It's an ability to come together, share information and ideas. You and I have been in a couple of sessions today that sort of blew my mind I'm going to take back. So it's about momentum building. I think we need to be clear eyed about the existential nature of the crisis, but we also need to recognize that good things are happening and we're building progress. And so we can be both alarmed and optimistic, which is why I love your work.

Tom: [00:34:15] Amazing. Thank you so much. Great to meet you. And great you're here. Good stuff. All right. 

Secretary Crowfoot: [00:34:20] Thank you, yeah, I'll give you a hug, great work, seriously.

Tom: [00:34:23] All right, well it would be great to stay in touch.

Paul: [00:34:25] So if I can respond to that lovely thing. It's so sweet to hear him talk about carbon disclosure, which was what we were talking about 23 years ago. And now the great state of California passes it into law. So that is going to change the whole world. Let's just remember that, you know, it's kind of complicated how you count it, but California is arguably the fourth or fifth largest economy in the world. They've passed this amazing new regulation. So well done to them, because I'm sure it will accelerate the success of that great state. But I've got to pick up something else pretty earth shattering from California in Climate Week. The state of California is suing these oil and gas companies. Now, we touched upon this before, but can I just quote a little bit, I don't know if you were there, Tom, but Governor Newsom said the following in New York. He said that for more than 50 years, big oil has been lying to us, covering up the fact they've known how dangerous the fossil fuels they are for our planet. And he says California taxpayers shouldn't have to foot the bill. California is taking action to hold big polluters accountable. Now, this is my point. The state of California ain't Greenpeace. It isn't Client Earth. It's the fourth or fifth largest economy in the world. Can you feel that on the streets of New York where I desperately want to be but I'm not?

Christiana: [00:35:35] No, that is so true, because litigation, climate litigation has, of course, been very, very helpful in the past. And there are, I think, 1500 cases on climate litigation ongoing. But as you say, Paul, most of them are coming from groups of young people or Client Earth. God bless them, they've done such a brilliant job. But not a gorilla, right? The state of California is a gorilla. It is a gorilla in its economic power. It is a gorilla in what legal arguments it can bring forward and what legal teams it can actually assemble. Now, the oil and gas companies should actually be shivering. This is really going to get them.

Tom: [00:36:26] Yeah, I completely agree. And actually, one of the tones on the street has been real anger towards oil and gas companies, not only in the marches, but in all of the rooms I've been in. 

Christiana: [00:36:34] Wait, wait, wasn't one March only against oil and gas?

Tom: [00:36:37] Only about that, only about that. So that clearly was the potency. But even amongst people who are, you know, not necessarily instinctively, immediately climate activists, but are engaging in the issue from another perspective, that has also been a strong theme. I think it's amazing. It's brilliant. He signed both these bills. I think that they were, there was not clarity that he was going to do it even a little bit before. And I think that's part of the power of Climate Week. You know, this forcing event accelerated that. It's also very interesting politically that Gavin Newsom is doing this now. So I've also heard from various different officials and people that we've known, Christiana inside government, that there is a big campaign to get Biden not to run for a second term internally inside the government. And so therefore there is a big discussion and I'd say it's 50/50 from I mean, what do I know, right, but from the analysis I'm hearing from others, 50/50 that he might not actually run for the second term and the front runners to take over from him would be Kamala Harris and Gavin Newsom. So part of what he's doing is also politically positioning for an opportunity that may or may not come. These are, of course, only rumours, but he has made a calculation that it is in his interest to do that. 

Paul: [00:37:47] Big stuff.

Christiana: [00:37:49] I think it's interesting that his political analysis makes him conclude that it is in his interest to take a very clear pro climate position in view of a potential presidential race. That is a fascinating, fascinating analysis and conclusion that he is making, because I would understand if he stays within the confines of California, you know, very Democratic, everybody agree not everybody, but most people agree. But if his political analysis is that on the stage of the country, on the national stage, this actually helps position him. That's that's very, very interesting with respect to where he thinks that public sentiment will be by the time that that the next presidential election comes around.

Paul: [00:38:45] But Christiana, democracy is about choices. And you put up with me reading out extensive comments by Donald Trump in his interview with Tucker Carlson criticizing electric vehicles, wind energy, renewable energy systems, low energy heating systems. He was very specific. So you can argue that fossil fuel interests, either commercially or politically, either from the US or from outside, are backing Trump 100%. So actually going the other direction and doubling down on on a clean, green future economy is giving voters a real choice, which is what democracy is all about. Christiana, Tom, can I chip in a thing here? I actually wanted to share a podcast recommendation with our listeners. It's about one of our allied climate shows, which I think listeners will really enjoy, especially this Climate Week. And it's called Climate Curious. And there are two co-hosts, Maryam Pasha and Ben Hurst, and they kind of lift the lid on climate emergency, so to speak. And they're joined by some really relatable climate pioneers and plus some pretty hilarious segments, including Climate Confessions, which is trying to break down the perfectionism around climate change by asking that extremely difficult question, what's the habit you can't kick? So I kind of think that we want to steal that idea. It's so good, actually, to be honest with you. The top episodes include How Deleting Emails Ignited a Climate Movement, Pride in the Wild, What is Queer Ecology, Meeting Latinas championing climate justice in Chile, And Why Mindfulness is a key to climate action. And finally, what is Space Trash? Apparently, in which there's more and more. Now they say that their podcast is for people who find climate conversation confusing, scary or boring. And I think it's the same for us because it can be all of those and it shouldn't be. And it's on all podcast platforms. Climate Curious again is the name and it's by TEDxLondon. So if you see the TEDx logo, that's the one. Anyway, sorry, I just wanted to share that with you because I think it's so cool.

Tom: [00:40:43] Nice.

Paul: [00:40:43] So what else Tom has like struck you because you're channelling the sort of climate political thing of the world and what's passing through your beam of light?

Tom: [00:40:53] All right. Well, so there was another dinner I went to, which was hosted by Potential Energy and John Marshall who is a former guest on this podcast.

Christiana: [00:40:58] Tom, you must be putting on a lot of weight?

Tom: [00:41:00] Honestly Christiana, it's a disaster. Exactly. But the good news is I'm walking 30,000 steps a day, so that's more than I usually do. This dinner, he set out research that they'd done extensively. And don't forget, John is one of the principal marketeers of the world as former Strategy Director of Lippincott. I mean, he spent decades selling products and he set out the dinner and he said, for years I've said, okay, I'm selling shampoo or toothpaste or whatever it is. What is the core message? What's the biggest why behind why you do this? And the answer they then set, set out to find in this context was what's the big universal why on climate change, if you're trying to sell it to as many people as possible across the G20, they did it across the whole G20. They couldn't go to Russia. But other than that, and they started to message test because most of the reasons that we give and the messages and the visions that we give aren't big enough to actually incorporate the whole of society, right. Keep it in the ground is a great message but it's not a unifying message that brings everyone in, even economic growth they tested. All of these are small messages that get certain percentages of the population together, but they don't actually drive a consistent, positive response from upwards of 80% of any population. So they did very extensive testing, which of course is an expensive thing to do. And he presented this. And would you like to guess?

Christiana: [00:42:23] I'm sitting at the edge of my seat.

Tom: [00:42:25] What the biggest why is? It's neither optimism nor outrage, which I was hoping he was going to say. And he presented it in this lovely, slightly sheepish way. Of course, it's love. Actually when you drive it down, it's love for our kids. It's love for each other. It's love for our planet. And when you are able to have that irreducible core manifest in the ways that you talk about this, it's not it's not anger, you know, anger has a place, of course it does. All these different perspectives and ideologies have a place. But if you look at the data, the thing that gets most people engaged across all of the countries that matter to drive down emissions reduction is love.

Christiana: [00:43:05] You know, it's so interesting that you say that because for a while now, Tom, I've been noodling on what is the difference between how we interpret love and how we interpret solidarity?

Tom: [00:43:21] Mmmm.

Christiana: [00:43:21] And, you know, most of the African heads of state in New York were speaking about solidarity with Africa as they should. But I wonder if it isn't time to recapture the concept of solidarity. Solidarity, a call for solidarity should not be the equivalent of a of blame, of making people feel guilty, of continuing the victim, perpetrator, perpetrator dynamic there. Is it not time for solidarity to be much, much closer to love?

Tom: [00:44:06] Right. Well, the interesting thing about that, and I actually shared this at a breakfast that we did, is when you view the world that way and you stay closer to the source, love manifests as a car company trying to drive down emissions. It manifests as an activist. It manifests in all these different forms. It manifests as justice, solidarity. But we drift so far from the core that we think those things are the real work. But actually they're the real work because they connect us back to the love behind us. So the closer that connection can be, the closer we are to that universal expression of it, the deeper the collaboration between everybody who works in different ways can be.

Paul: [00:44:43] Yeah, I mean, just it's such a it's such a beautiful point. And I was reading some comment about, you know, the increased costs for consumers from decarbonization, which may or may not be true. But as Jon Alexander, who's been on the show, would say, you know, consumers don't have love, right. People have love. And let's just remember that they're not consumers. They're people. And they've got love in them. And, you know, nobody wants to hurt their children or grandchildren. Nobody. 

Tom: [00:45:11] Yeah. Now I know we need to go. And I'm just instinctively going back into asking questions mode, which you can put me back in my box if you want. But there's one question I want to ask, which is.

Christiana: [00:45:19] No, but we're supposed to be asking you questions.

Tom: [00:45:22] I know. 

Paul: [00:45:23] And what about Phil from Brunswick, you've got this genius, and I want to hear from him?

Tom: [00:45:27] All right, so let's stick Phil on and then I'm going to ask my question afterwards. Here's Phil Drew. All right. So Monday afternoon and I'm now sitting in midtown, sitting outside having a cup of tea with Phil Drew from Brunswick, who will be known to many people, legendary in his ability to tell compelling stories to the press about climate. Phil, it's so good to see you. Listen, this UNGA feels so weird, right. I mean, we've got a bad participation from heads of state. The SG's doing his Climate Summit. Events are going on across New York. And one thing I've been thinking about today is how do you tell the story of what happens here? Because it's so much. But when it becomes so much, there's a danger, it's like a schmeer and we kind of lose the signal in all of that noise. What do you, how are you going about trying to convey to the world what's going on here?

Phil Drew: [00:46:13] Thank you, Tom. What an impossible question to try and answer, especially in this muggy New York afternoon. Well, I think what is emerging from this Climate Week, even though it's only the opening day, it's actually some areas of some centers of gravity. And if I.

Tom: [00:46:30] I'm just going to have to correct Phil's holding of the phone.

Phil Drew: [00:46:32] Apologies, I'm such an amateur at this.

Tom: [00:46:33] Hold it a little bit further away. There you go.

Phil Drew: [00:46:36] It's like being in The Apprentice, like speaking into the end of a telephone rather than the earpiece. Some centers of gravity are already beginning to emerge, and I think those centers of gravity will either be reinforced as the week goes on or maybe even adjusted. So if I think about this opening few hours of the first day, the things that are really jumping out to me as anchor points are around the intersection between nature and net zero. Of course, obviously we've heard that as a theme many times before, but actually there seems to be a renewed sense of momentum, new launches, a coincidence of launches that are taking place, particularly around the role of private finance and scaling those solutions. We know that's obviously going to be a key theme of the COP, energy systems, but also the important, the importance of transforming land and nature is going to be really, really key. So I'm looking out for those sort of red threads, transition plans. Obviously, this is a really critical juncture from intent to implementation and we're going to hear more of that, I expect, at the UN Climate Ambition Summit, and we're already starting to see people anticipate that. So a number of banks and asset managers that are actually holding private salon dinners tonight and through the week on that will probably no doubt hear a bit more on on at Bloomberg.

Phil Drew: [00:47:58] So it's really difficult, isn't it. But I think what you can start to spot is where are where are people gravitating towards and how can that start to thread together to tell a more of a coherent and comprehensive story. And there are some big arcs within that. This shift from net zero intent to implementation. How are we actually following up on pledges with plans. The big focus on how do we really lean into some of those intersectionalities and those interconnections, not just on climate and reducing emissions, but on and building resilience. And what's the role of nature in that, given that we've heard so much about energy. And of course, obviously this is taking place against, as you mentioned, the Global Stocktake, a wall of skepticism. So I'm sure we'll hear a load about greenwash and how you can really demonstrate credible action against the timelines that are still on the cards. So I don't know if that goes some way to making a fist of an answer towards your question.

Tom: [00:48:55] That's a great answer. And it's both, I mean, it's both the great opportunity and the great challenge of this moment. And also for someone like you that you that it takes a few minutes right, to explain and put your arms around the totality of it. And then the clarion call that comes from that is difficult sometimes for people to hear because it's a lot. And that's all good stuff. But at the same time, we have to boil it down and kind of get the message through. So really appreciate it. It's good you're here, you're doing a good job.

Phil Drew: [00:49:20] Can I add one thing? I think one other meta theme that we're hearing about, and obviously this is something you and I, Tom, are spending a lot, it's the pace of change and exponential change. So if we think about sort of the context in which we're communicating this year relative to previous years where the momentum has been the thing that we've been hooking into here, really I think we're telling a hidden story or trying to surface it, a hidden or submerged story around actually change that is transforming at a pace that is far faster than people think. And I think people are starting to surface that subterranean narrative. And we might see by the end of the week that subterranean narrative actually becomes a very, very key part of the kind of scaffolding that people are hooking onto in the road towards COP 28.

Tom: [00:50:10] I love it, that would be a great outcome for the week. I hope you're right. Nice one. Phil, thanks. Appreciate it. Okay. Can I ask my question?

Paul: [00:50:18] Well, just to say I absolutely loved him bringing in kind of nature because, you know, climate change, we always think greenhouse gas emissions up, nature emissions down, up and down. Thank you for bringing them both with your clarity of thought Phil. Tom.

Tom: [00:50:29] So I know we're coming towards the end of our podcast now, and I'm going to ask the question that I would have asked several times had Christiana been here throughout the week. You've now heard the analysis that I've put out from the time I've been here. You've been following this very closely, I'm sure through many your many friends who are on the street. We are in a really tough spot with the breakdown between government ambition, the relationship of the ambition loop, as we've talked about. What is your analysis of how we get out of this geopolitically? What needs to happen now?

Christiana: [00:51:01] Well, you know, I'm not sure about geopolitically, Tom, but let me take that question to a deeper level, because I think you're spot on when you say the more we get into the solutions or whatever, the farther we get from the real purpose here, which is love. And I've been thinking about the proverbial difference between the finger and the sun. You use the finger to point to the sun, and then you mistake the finger for the sun. And that's what's happening, right. We are putting forward the technological fixes, the geopolitical fixes, the nature fixes, the, you know, on and on and on and on and on. And there are just so many different fixes. Are the fixes going to come from cities? Are they going to come from states or are they going to come from marches? Are they going to come, you know? And all of that is sort of true, but not really. All of that is finger, but it's not the sun. And the more that we realize the difference between our choice of where we engage, the difference between that, whether it's, you know, we're engaging in one sector or the other or through one, one constituency or the other, but actually that we are all ultimately not just benefited but united in the ultimate purpose, which is a much higher understanding of the purpose of being a human alive right now. And why is it that we're here? What is the ultimate purpose of our lives? Sorry to get so philosophical, but it's your fault.

Paul: [00:52:50] No, it's exactly the right question. 

Christiana: [00:52:50] Because you use the the word love, right.

Tom: [00:52:51] It's exactly the right answer. Yeah.

Christiana: [00:52:53] And that to me is, you know, if we could, if we can identify and accept that everybody uses different fingers, but everybody is pointing to the sun, that would actually help. That would help because we would be able to to see that more clearly and move more quickly in that direction.

Tom: [00:53:19] I think you have absolutely nailed it. I think that's exactly the thing. I mean, in my understanding of Chinese philosophy, it's the finger pointing at the moon. But I think we can manage the difference between those two things. I think the point is made, I think that's exactly right.

Christiana: [00:53:32] I think the Buddhist's point to the sun.

Tom: [00:53:35] Anyway, whatever that is, you're absolutely right. That is exactly what we're doing. And we're arguing about which way we want to point to it from. But if we can all come back as much as possible, then we can see that we're all trying to achieve the same thing. And that's the really hopeful thing here, I love that.

Paul: [00:53:53] Well, let me try and build on an important part of my career, which is simply saying what Christiana said again, but in a different way. You know, I think that the, we've been we have been hiding as humans from like what we're doing here for thousands of years using religion as the kind of camouflage. Then we've been hiding from what we're doing here as humans for hundreds of years, using economics as the camouflage. But this test that has come in the form of climate change and the other, you know, poly crisis pulls the camouflage away and maybe we won't see it as a test. Maybe we'll see it as a gift and maybe it's a great big sieve. And out of this, we'll find out who and what we are and indeed what we were doing here. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if the answer was love. And I'd be proud to be part of any species that came to that conclusion.

Tom: [00:54:37] That feels like a pretty good place to end. What do you think?

Christiana: [00:54:40] Nice.

Tom: [00:54:41] Thank you. Lovely to see you both. I am sorry you're not here, and I would be enjoying hanging out with both of you here. But next time, we'll see when that is.

Christiana: [00:54:46] Next time.

Christiana: [00:54:48] Tom, thank you so much for putting up with the New York craziness and for taking the time to share it with us.

Tom: [00:54:57] Oh no, my pleasure. And lots of love, as I said from both of you, for everyone here. And to listeners, we'll see you all next week. Thanks for joining us. Now we have some music.

Paul: [00:55:09] And Tom get in some more cabs with some more people. You know, the worse the traffic, the better the interview. So get in those cabs.

Tom: [00:55:16] I'm not getting in another, I've made that mistake for this year. Okay. annie hamilton with the song Electric Night. A few more days of Climate Week to go. But we will be back with you next week. And I think we need to offer an apology to Nigel Topping who we said we'll get him back next week and then we all completely forgot so let's get him back.

Paul: [00:55:30] He'll be in some tremendously important room somewhere doing a tremendously important thing. So we give him a pass. Great to see you, Tom.

Tom: [00:55:37] Alright, bye everyone. Love you guys. 

Christiana: [00:55:38] Bye.

Paul: [00:55:39] Bye, y'all.

Clay: [00:55:40] Listeners, this is Clay, producer of Outrage + Optimism. Tom sent through one more voice note after we had already recorded this episode, and we really want to play it for you because we thought that the message of collaboration is a wonderful point to end the episode on before we play our artist track. So you'll hear from Harjeet Singh here in a moment. Then you'll hear this week's artist annie hamilton. So good. And then I'll catch you after the music to ask you something. So here's Tom and Harjeet.

Tom: [00:56:18] So I am now at Goal's House with Harjeet Singh from CAN International, who has been the most remarkable leader on climate justice and activism for a very long time. Back to Paris and well before. It's so nice to be here with you. Listen, you bring such an interesting perspective on how we are actually, you know, not delivering what we need to do, the pathways to it. This is a very strange UNGA. Many of the world leaders aren't here. There's a lot of events going on. I'd just love to hear your analysis of of what it's like compared to other summits like this and where you think we'll get to.

Harjeet Singh: [00:56:47] Yeah. Thank you very much and always a pleasure to be with you. This climate march was very different from the ones that we have seen in the past. The message that came out from this march was loud and clear. We were talking about the cause of the problem, and that's fossil fuels. The message to Joe Biden was very clear that he has to stop expanding fossil fuels and tackle the problem. And that message from young people was so inspiring and was so clear and really telling, what will be the implication if Joe Biden doesn't listen to the voices of young people and people who are suffering from the climate crisis around the world. And with UNSG taking that leadership and saying to the world leaders that I'm going to give you a stage only when you have something to deliver, I think that's a very powerful message. It has not happened. So we know the problem. We know that we have to solve it. And we are also now challenging the world leaders to step up. They can't just hide behind, you know, excuses or just pay lip service. They have to deliver now. And the way people have come together, the way they are sending that message loud and clear has to be heard. And the kind of conversations we had just now, it's about bringing everybody together. We need all hands on deck and we need to be collaborative. We need to change the way we have spent the last 30 years. We need to be honest. We need to be collaborating. We need to be looking at solutions, but we also need to put equity and justice at the very core of our work on climate. That's something that we actually avoided. And without putting equity and justice, without realizing people who are at the sharp end, people who have not caused the problem, yet they are suffering and they need to be also part of the solution and leadership. That's what needs to happen.

Tom: [00:58:25] Amazing. I love it. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Incisive as ever. Really appreciate it. Good to see you.

Harjeet Singh: [00:58:30] My pleasure. Thank you so much.

annie hamilton: [00:58:33] Hey, my name is annie hamilton, and this is a stripped back version of my track, Electric Night, from my debut album, 'The future is here but it feels kind of like the past'. This is a love song to a person, but also to the natural world. The sky, the lightning, the storms, the trees, the fruit bats, all of it. It's about living in the moment, really letting yourself fall into it and forgetting about the outside world for a while. If you like what you hear, go watch the music video on YouTube. It's basically just three minutes of me running around my house and climbing onto the roof in a pair of glittery homemade bat wings shot on a handicam from 1995 with my housemate during lockdown. You can also check out the full, dreamy, fuzzy version on all streaming services and find me on social media.

Clay: [01:02:09] So there you go. Another episode of Outrage + Optimism. annie hamilton, The Electric Night. You can go check out the glittery, homemade batwings and Handicam video in the show notes. And I love this. The full, dreamy, fuzzy version of the song, too. It just begs the question, why do we call a song a studio version when we can just call it how it sounds? Dreamy and fuzzy. I love that. More music from annie hamilton. You can spend this weekend also below in the show notes. And one other link for you. I was really inspired by the merch that she makes and the sustainability practices behind it, from production to shipping everything ethically and sustainably sourced. She even ships all of her merch in compostable bags that you can compost like right in your backyard. It's really amazing stuff. And she's written this whole page about it. Anyway, I've got the link. You can check out that below. I know a lot of musicians are listening here at the end. Please make sure that you go check out to see how annie is doing things. It's really inspiring. You might pick up some new ideas and of course you should just buy something too.

Clay: [01:03:19] She calls it her reaction to fast fashion. A quick thank you to everyone who recorded with Tom at Climate Week NYC. You made this podcast episode possible. Listeners go check below to connect with everyone who was on the podcast. It's kind of become this tradition to send Tom around recording people throughout the week, every year. I think we might do it at COP28 too. Anyway, we'd love to hear what you think about that. Should we keep doing it? And speaking of hearing what you think, we are looking for more reviews from all of you on Apple Podcasts, Spotify. People who are checking out our podcast for the first time. Go and read those and see what listeners who listen every week have to say. But also it really informs us here at Outrage + Optimism know what you like about the podcast. So we read every single review that comes in, and when you tell us what you like, we make more of it. So please leave us a review. Thank you for that. Looking forward to reading those. Okay. Enjoy your weekend. Thank you for joining us and for listening. We will see you next week.