×
We are excited to announce that Outrage + Optimism is now part of the TED Audio Collective. This news represents an exciting continuation of the collaboration between our organizations, which began with our strategic partnership with TED Countdown.

The TED Audio Collective is a curated collection of podcasts sharing ideas on a range of subjects, including psychology, business, and design. On TED Climate you’ll hear talks from some of the leading minds in the field on crisis solutions, challenges, and insights that give listeners the information and hope we need to keep fighting.

You can view the full list of TED Audio Collective podcasts here, and listen to them wherever you get your podcasts.
Outrage + Optimism logo

Behind the scenes on the politics, investments and actions meeting the climate crisis head on

Arrow
Global Optimism logo

Stubborn optimism is a choice. Join us in tackling the climate crisis with conviction, scale and speed

Arrow

269: COP16: Making Peace With Nature?

With Monica Medina

Watermark of logo

About this episode

This week, Christiana has a fascinating window into the Biodiversity COP negotiations underway in Colombia. From Cali, she’s joined by Freya Newman and Irene Suarez Perez from the Global Optimism team who give us the lowdown on what’s going on inside and outside the negotiating rooms. They tell what’s unique about Colombia hosting, how it’s given a platform to Indigenous Peoples and local communities; and why business is talking about love as well as finance. 

At COP15, 196 countries agreed to set up a fund for projects to conserve and restore nature – but it has struggled to attract large contributions and now negotiators are clashing over what to do with it.

To try to make sense of this, Monica Medina also joins Christiana from Cali. Monica is an Arnold Distinguished Fellow with Conservation International and the US’ first Special Envoy for Biodiversity. They have an animated chat about funding and the essential synergies between climate and biodiversity. They dive deep into the issue of Digital Sequencing Information, asking: how do we ensure that nature gets reimbursed and the people who steward nature get compensated in a market system? And Medina shares her optimism about a new oceans fund and her outrage about destructive subsidies.


NOTES AND RESOURCES

GUESTS
Monica Medina, Arnhold Distinguished Fellow with Conservation International, former Assistant Secretary of State for Oceans, International Environmental and Scientific Affairs and the first US Special Envoy for Biodiversity and Water Resources
LinkedIn | Instagram | Twitter (X) 

Irene Suarez Perez, Senior Advisor - Nature & Food System Transformation - Groundswell at Global Optimism
LinkedIn

Freya Newman, Advisor, Groundswell at Global Optimism
LinkedIn


Please fill out our Annual Listener Survey!


Learn more about the Paris Agreement.

It’s official, we’re a TED Audio Collective Podcast - Proof!
Check out more podcasts from The TED Audio Collective

Please follow us on social media!
Twitter | Instagram | LinkedIn

Full Transcript


Christiana Figueres: [00:00:12] Hello and welcome to Outrage + Optimism. I'm Christiana Figueres and we have no Paul and no Tom today, we're going to be covering what is going on at the UN biodiversity COP in Cali, Colombia. Thanks for being here. So, friends, we indeed have no Paul and no Tom today, but they will not be sorely missed because I am delighted to be joined from Cali, Colombia by two of our wider Global Optimism team members, Irene Suarez and Freya Newman. Hola hola chicas. How wonderful to have you and welcome to the show. So delighted, A, that you are there doing the hard work, but also taking the time at this ungodly hour of the morning to join us and give us a bit of the feel of what is going on in Cali, Colombia. So who would like to give us a little description of the vibe? Because, you know, most of our listeners will be either pretty proficient or at least knowledgeable about climate COPs, but not so about biodiversity COPs. So from that perspective, because both of you have been to both, what are the differences, Freya? Load More
Freya Newman: [00:01:56] Hola, buenos dias. I sound really rough as I start speaking, don't I?

Christiana Figueres: [00:02:00] It's okay, it's very early.

Freya Newman: [00:02:03] And we went salsa dancing last night, which doesn't help.

Christiana Figueres: [00:02:06] Oh, no, it does help. I wanted to ask. Yes, yes, yes. Very good. When in Colombia, you have to go salsa dancing.

Freya Newman: [00:02:14] Especially in Cali, we heard. And it was also the the world championships for salsa dancing taking place alongside the COP in Cali at exactly the same time.

Christiana Figueres: [00:02:23] But not at the COP.

Freya Newman: [00:02:24] But not at the COP, although it should be at the COP. I think blue zones could always do with more music and dancing.

Christiana Figueres: [00:02:31] Indeed.

Freya Newman: [00:02:31] But this, this is my first biodiversity COP. I've been to three climate COPs and this is my first biodiversity COP, and I think it's a very different energy and vibe compared to the climate one. The blue zone is much smaller and quieter, and it really feels like everyone is there for negotiations. Whereas at the Climate COP, there's so much stuff going on on the side and I think overall it just feels a lot more humble than the climate COPs is I think how I'd describe it, but that said.

Christiana Figueres: [00:02:58] What do you mean by humble Freya? That's an interesting term to use. What do you mean by that?

Freya Newman: [00:03:02] Well, I think there's a lot less ego. It feels more collaborative because everybody here is really in the negotiations. And like, there's way more practitioners on the ground, more indigenous peoples and local communities who are at the heart of all of these different efforts, and so it just changes the vibe compared to the climate COP, which has a lot of crazy stuff going on on the sides. What do you think of Irene?

Irene Suarez: [00:03:25] So the biodiversity COP in in Cali has had an enormous presence of whole society. And and one can see here the, the general vibe is of, of uplifting this whole society approach to, to reversing biodiversity loss by 2030, which is a vision in the global biodiversity framework. And I think Colombia has really enabled the presence of whole society and in not only outside of the negotiations, but also within the negotiations. So there there is a massive area called the Green Zone, which is vibing with music, it's vibing with art, with different forms of representing how we all are nature, and that we must show up for what we love which is which is nature and ourselves. And and that's also coming into the the negotiation rooms. And I think that humility of how we speak about nature is, is, is perhaps the point that Freya is referencing. So I was yesterday in the plenary, listening to the statements of, of heads of state and of different representatives at at the at the plenary of the high level segment. And I was hearing how the indigenous people representatives Hindou Ibrahim was speaking about how the indigenous people are like the Messi in the protection and the stewardship of nature, and they only have very, very little resources. It's less than 1% of total resources allocated for nature provided to them for this titanic effort that that they deliver. And she was using this analogy of Messi. And I'm just using using that as as a way.

Christiana Figueres: [00:05:42] Messi, as in the football hero? In Argentina.

Irene Suarez: [00:05:45] Yes, Messi as Lionel Messi. So he's he's the champion. So he is the champion of football. The the greatest of all times. And the point being is that indigenous people are exactly that. They are the stewards. They are those who really help, protect and conserve and restore nature. And and they should be uplifted as, as society does with a Lionel Messi. And and that should also be reflected in the finance that they access.

Christiana Figueres: [00:06:24] Interesting. And so I am assuming, from what I've been reading and seeing that the presence of indigenous people that you're talking about is much, much more powerful, visible and audible at the biodiversity COP than it is at the climate COP. Is that correct? For for good reasons, as you say.

Irene Suarez: [00:06:46] Absolutely Christiana, the presence of the indigenous peoples here is Titanic. They're in in all the hallways and different side events, but also in the negotiations because they and Colombia has been promoting their effective participation in the negotiations. And for this, there's an article, Article 8(j) within the Global Biodiversity Framework, which is about the adoption of subsidiary body for them. And so that's one key political point that's that's been addressed now by ministers in in the second week of, of the, of the biodiversity COP. But also there is another key aspect which is providing direct access of finance to indigenous people, that they do not have to go through intermediary bodies, through large NGOs, to access the already scarce resources that are available to them. So sometimes we hear about pledges that are being made for indigenous peoples, but really, how much of that money effectively gets to them on the ground is a very structural issue that needs to be addressed. And that is being brought to the table here in Cali.

Christiana Figueres: [00:08:08] And just just so our listeners get the, the, the numbers on this Irene, indigenous peoples today represent somewhere between 5 and 6% of world population, but they have been stewarding at least 40% of of standing intact nature. And some some authorities even say that it is up to 80% that is under their stewardship. And they have been doing this for centuries. And it is about time that that effort be recognized both from a responsibility perspective, the responsibility that they have taken on for such a long time, but also from the financial perspective. So I would say the whole participation of of those people in protection of biodiversity on this planet, about time that it be recognized.

Irene Suarez: [00:09:06] Absolutely. And Colombia, as we all know, in the different conference of parties, these gatherings of all signatories to to the Convention of biodiversity, each of the presidency provides its own accents, its own flavours to the COP negotiations.

Christiana Figueres: [00:09:24] Vibe, its own vibe, yeah.

Irene Suarez: [00:09:25] Its own vibe and energy and Colombia's priorities I find outstanding. And kicking off with this point that you just raised, Christiana. It's the social aspects and bringing this whole society approach and really uplifting the indigenous peoples and also the local communities for all these reasons that you've just mentioned. The other two priorities and vibes that that Colombia has been putting at the heart of this COP is how we elevate nature in the global political agenda vis a vis climate change, and particularly as Minister Muhamad, the the COP president herself has been saying, they are the same coin and there are all these interlinkages of how biodiversity is is affected by climate change, but also biodiversity loss exacerbates climate change and we must address them in an integral manner. And the third priority is actually the the whole motto, so to say, of the COP, which is peace with nature. And it's so important, I find that structurally important for us all, because it's about how we have peace with nature, which is ourselves, but also how business can show up and what that means for them, how they have peace with nature, how financial institutions have peace with nature. And and this is about, I believe, implementing that milestone agreement that was adopted in COP15 two years ago in Montreal, with the long standing vision of reversing biodiversity loss by 2030. So having peace with nature is showing us all how they are implementing that vision, and it's going to be a journey. We're not going to all get it right at the at the start, but we definitely all need to be every step of the way contributing to that vision. And that is the peace with nature that that the Colombians have put at the heart of this COP, which is fantastic.

Christiana Figueres: [00:11:43] Beautiful, beautiful. Thank you Irene, thank you for for bringing that in. Freya, your last words?

Freya Newman: [00:11:49] I was just going to say, I think you're talking about business and finance Irene. I think we've noticed that there's a lot of business here. This is an unprecedented biodiversity COP for business. I think there's over 3000 business here. And it feels like they're engaging in a different way. So they're using a lot less jargon than the climate COPs. And they're talking a lot instead about love, which we like a lot on this podcast. Irene?

Irene Suarez: [00:12:13] And that is true. That is absolutely true. I think this presence of business and financial institutions also reflect a growth of how their interests of contributing to avoid further nature loss is, is growing. So and I think that's because of the regulation. It's also because of disclosures becoming more inevitable, but also because there's an opportunity of investment. And so more businesses are stepping up to include nature in their business plans and have it present in their climate strategies. However, we we just saw the Forbes 500 report, sadly indicating that only 55 financial institutions have deforestation policies. And that is alarming because nature loss is driven by mainly land conversion and deforestation. And also there, honestly, there is no no excuse for that. There's no excuse for inaction because there are all the tools required for business and financial institutions to step up and contribute both to reversal of biodiversity loss and to delivery of the climate action. And just an illustration of that is the Finance Alliance of Net Zero, just launched here at COP16 their framework of how financial institutions can integrate nature into their commitments. So very excited about that Freya as well.

Christiana Figueres: [00:13:39] Bueno. Irene and Freya, thank you so much, ladies. Muchas gracias. We have to call it a wrap here as we go on to other wonderful conversations. Thank you so much for making the effort. I know it's always very hectic at COPs. Thank you for getting up very early after a very late night. Thank you, thank you and we look forward to the results at the end of this week. Thank you.

Irene Suarez: [00:14:09] Thank you, bye.

Freya Newman: [00:14:10] Muchas gracias, thank you. Bye.

Christiana Figueres: [00:14:13] Bye. Now also joining us from the COP in Cali. I'm delighted to be joined by Monica Medina. Monica was Assistant Secretary of State of the United States for Oceans, Environment and Science. She was the US Special Envoy for Biodiversity and Water Resources. Today, she is Distinguished Fellow at Conservation International and has been a long term participant in these conversations from a government perspective. So we are thrilled that Monica has also taken time to join us today and give us, perhaps, her her perspective as one who views these conversations and these negotiations from a from a national government perspective. Monica, hola hola. Thank you so much for taking our call.

 Monica Medina: [00:15:20] Hola, Christiana. It's so nice to be with you today, and I'm so excited to talk about what's happening here at COP.

Christiana Figueres: [00:15:27] Well, we're excited to to talk to you, Monica. And let's just get the the uncomfortable truth out of the way pretty quickly. And that is that the United States has yet to ratify the biodiversity convention. Enough said about that. We don't need to go into that, but really appreciate that despite that, that you have been such an active participant, in, in the negotiation of this COP and Monica so, so we're in the second week. Would love to hear from you how you compare the trend of the discussion that you have heard over the past one and a half weeks to previous COPs of biodiversity. How, how how would you say we have been able to pick up from Montreal and from a 30 by 30 target that was achieved, how are we picking up from there? And now actually going into implementation slash financing, which is the most important part of this conversation, how are we doing on that?

 Monica Medina: [00:16:46] Well, I think there are several other ongoing meetings that actually have a big bearing on how well we do in achieving the 30 by 30 target. So, for example, the climate COPs, obviously, one of the big issues here at this COP and in general is how much to integrate nature and nature finance to boot, into our climate discussions and how much to synergize the two sets of meetings. So it does help that in the intervening time since Montreal, we had a very important climate COP last year, a lot of progress was made and a lot of emphasis was put on nature. Nature has been making bigger and bigger inroads into the climate COPs, and I think that's a good thing. But I do think it's hard with a two year gap to keep the momentum going. And it would be an interesting thought given that we only have six years left, it would be interesting to see whether we could organize more CBD COPs in the interim, because I do think these meetings play an important role in galvanizing momentum and ideas and funding and getting corporate commitments and philanthropic commitments, and just the the incredible creative juices of having 20,000 people all focused like a laser beam on how do we reach this incredibly ambitious goal. It's really a great thing. It's a lot of work to put them on it, it's, it's not an easy thing, but it might be what we need. We may need to, to meet more often. We do have also the UN Ocean Conferences. And there's one coming up next year. And there was a pre-meeting earlier this year. And, you know, 70% of the planet is ocean. So if we're going to get to 30%, we have to get to 30% of that 70%, which is huge. And until recently we couldn't even protect that. So now there's a lot of emphasis on that. There are lots of other meetings that are going on. Another big one, the convention that governs Antarctica, a huge part of our, important wildlife biodiversity is down in Antarctica. It's it's not a country. It's controlled by 26 countries. And we are working very hard to get a giant marine protected area in Antarctica, actually three, but three at once. And that would be a huge step forward. So even though the CBD COPs aren't happening, other things are happening that keep the momentum going. And I'll mention one more COP because, it is an important one, and it's the third one of this year, and it's often forgotten. It's the CCD COP, that's on the COP on desertification, on drought and on basically restoration of land, which has been so degraded. And that one is yet another important meeting that will keep this conversation going.

Christiana Figueres: [00:20:01] Absolutely. And you'll you'll be happy to know that our listeners will already be attuned to this, because we did an episode that covers at a very, very high level, all three COPs that we will have from now until December. So listeners will be well aware of of the three COPs and the relationship. But, Monica, you have a soft spot for oceans. And so let's just let's just start there because, we don't usually address oceans as much as we ought to. And I have several friends who remind me of that constantly. I also have a friend who put a blue marble into my computer case many years ago and told me, this is so that you remember oceans, and so that blue marble comes with me everywhere I go. So let's just talk a little bit about oceans, because the 30 by 30 target that was, that was ascribed to in in a previous biodiversity COP covers both land and oceans and could could you just tell us a little bit about how that how how the ocean conversation, I wanted to have three conversations with you, by the way, just so that you know, oceans, land, how are we doing on land protection and then finance okay. Those are the three conversations that I wanted you to update us on, in in the context of Cali. So first with oceans, have we progressed? Has this been a helpful conversation on oceans?

 Monica Medina: [00:21:38] Well, I do think there is important progress being made, but it's way behind the other areas of conservation that we need to achieve in reaching that 30 by 30 goal. We have only 8% of the ocean protected at this point in time, and only 3% of that is effectively managed. So it's a tiny sliver of our planet in this giant blue orb, as you said. And we need to do much more. It's great that we have Peter Thomson here, he's the UN Special Envoy for Oceans, and he has really been pushing hard for countries to come forward with protected areas that they would like to see done in the next six years, so that we can identify the the places that we really want to focus on for protecting. And a lot of those will be in the high seas, and we don't have the treaty yet ratified that would allow us to create those protected areas in the high seas. So one of the best presentations of all was done by the new Minister of Environment of Panama, who said, what are you all doing here? Go back to your countries and ratify that treaty. Which was a funny joke, but it's serious. We need to to get more countries to ratify. And that's another one where I'm afraid the US may not step up and it's it's quite disappointing, but I will be working hard on that, let me assure you. And on ratifying the CBD, by the way, I hope we can get there. But back to oceans. There is momentum now on oceans with this new global agreement on protected areas in the high seas, a greater recognition of the importance of oceans for keeping our planet healthy, for feeding us, for connecting us. So I think I have some I have some optimism in the in the outrage and optimism categories. I think I put ocean in the optimism category because it is getting more and more attention. And we're talking about creating a champions group for oceans so that we'll have yet another for the protection of ocean areas specifically because there are lots of ocean champions out there. And I want to tip my hat to John Kerry and Sylvia Earle and so many others.

Christiana Figueres: [00:23:56] Indeed, indeed.

 Monica Medina: [00:23:57] And so anyway, I'm optimistic about oceans, but we need more and we need more funding. And that's the place where we've completely fallen behind in oceans. It gets only 3% of the great big, climate funding. And of course, it's absorbing a huge amount. 90% of the world's excess heat is being absorbed in the ocean. So we know we need to be really focused on it.

Christiana Figueres: [00:24:25] Yeah. So a direct relationship between the biodiversity COP and the climate COP indeed, the fact that the oceans have played the role of buffer to absorb both heat and CO2 for such a long time and may be losing that ability over time. Monica also wanted to talk to you about land, because the 30 by 30 target also covers land, of course, and there is such a vibrant conversation about time, a vibrant conversation about the fact that indigenous peoples have been playing the role of stewards of of so many of our still protected lands. How are you now toward the end of the of this COP, how are you feeling about the participation, the active participation of indigenous peoples and the recognition that is being given to their very important role in protecting these lands and slash the other side in recognizing that that is an expensive activity and that the funding, the finance that has come from those, that extraction of genetic resources has not found its way back to its rightful owners. So how do you assess that conversation in Cali?

 Monica Medina: [00:25:55] I think it goes in my optimism category again.

Christiana Figueres: [00:25:59] All right.

 Monica Medina: [00:26:01] Only because it was so bad before. It's a little bit like, you know, you had nowhere to go but up a few years ago when indigenous peoples were really pounding on the door and asking to be included. And I think now they are very much engaged in the conversation. Could it be more? Of course. I think there's no doubt that we need to continue to make sure that we have as many representatives of indigenous peoples and local communities, and I've been really interested to see Afrocentric communities coming forward and speaking up more, which is really interesting, so I think, I think we are getting there. And so I put it in my optimism category, because I've seen so much progress over the amount of time that I've been participating in these international meetings. But there is way more to go, and there is way more to go when it comes to finance for those particular protected areas that impact indigenous peoples. And I think, you know, with the Brazilian COP presidency for the climate COP in a year, that's going to continue the focus. I love this southern hemisphere energy that, that happens at the COPs in the in in here in South America in particular. I think it's going to be great to see the next one as well. There's a lot of despite the fact that they're still negotiating about the synergies between the two actual agreements, I think the synergies between the COP presidencies, between this biodiversity COP and the climate COP in Belém in a year, are are just going to be, you know, huge and and indigenous peoples will be a very big part of the conversation in Belém. And that's giving them more room to be outspoken here.

Christiana Figueres: [00:27:54] Well, it definitely is better than where we were and completely insufficient right. Both both of those are true at the same time, and I'm glad that you put it in the optimism category Monica and I think, you know, those that are directly affected are would would recognize that there is progress and say, absolutely not enough, absolutely not enough, especially for financial recognition. What is your sense of any progress on financial recognition of of the role of indigenous peoples, of the value of genetic resources. Where do you see that conversation having advanced over the past week and a half?

 Monica Medina: [00:28:50] I think it's still, you know, we're just at the leader segment. And so often, you know, the text gets narrowed, but there's still brackets. And the the question about digital sequencing and genetic information and how that will be handled is still up for grabs. I think the the amount of funding going to indigenous peoples is not sufficient, but I think that fits within the overall outrage category. And that's where my outrage comes out, is the overall funding for nature is not sufficient, and the amount it provides to us in terms of the ecosystem services, something your listeners are all familiar with. But, you know, we just don't have an economy. We don't have a society, we don't have a life without nature. And it doesn't get included in our economic, our market economies very well, if at all. And, and I think that disadvantages the whole world, but particularly indigenous peoples who have been the stewards, the best stewards of nature all this time. I think the digital sequencing question is a really challenging one because it is, something that's not familiar to many many people in this negotiation, many people, don't really understand exactly how it would work. And it's so it's a very hard thing, I think, to negotiate, because it is quite technical.

Christiana Figueres: [00:30:25] And just for our listeners, let's get a tiny bit nerdy here. What you're talking about digital sequence information is known in the biodiversity conversation as DSI, and what it actually refers to is digital data that is derived from genetic resources, such as DNA and RNA sequences that are extracted from plants that very often are in the territories protected and lived in by indigenous peoples. And these this DNA or RNA sequences, is being used already right in many different fields in biotechnology, in pharmaceuticals, in food production, in vaccine development. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so the big conversation here, or in fact, I would actually say the big fight here is, on the one hand, Monica, as you have explained, how can we ensure that all of this information, this biological genetic resource information that is key to, to vaccines, to to medicines, to so many things that are important to everyone in this world, how can we ensure that it is accessible and that in the best of all cases, it is actually open source. And at the same time, how do we ensure that there is fairness in the system such that those who have been stewarding these plants for thousands of years get financially recognized for the fact that they have stored this for years.

Christiana Figueres: [00:32:11] And so at COP15 in Montreal two years ago, governments agreed to set up a mechanism to share the benefits from the use of these DSI on genetic resources, including perhaps a global fund. And so now at COP16 the talks should be focusing on how is this mechanism going to work. Not an easy issue at all, but it is a it's an interesting sort of rabbit hole that we've gone into here, because it exemplifies the kind of tension that is at the heart of many of these many of these conventions, and certainly at the heart of the biodiversity and the climate convention, which is how how do you come out with a fair and equitable agreement that those who have put solutions on the table are recognised for that, and that those that need the solutions get the access to those solutions. And so thank you for bringing that up. I wasn't sure, Monica, if we were going to go into that rabbit hole, but thank you so much for bringing it up because it is a very, very important part of this COP and exemplifies the dynamic of the conversation.

 Monica Medina: [00:33:28] Agreed. And it's really at the heart of what is at the centre of, it's at the heart of what this conversation is about, which is how do we make sure that nature gets paid back and the people who steward it get paid back, get compensated in a market system for using that. And that's really what this COP is all about. It's what we're struggling to overcome. If we had set up a system in the first place where nature was reimbursed and the people who protect it were reimbursed, and conserving it was something that was valued in our economies, we would have figured this out already. The problem is we're trying to do this now at the very end. But there's explosive potential for these, DSI bits, you know, for how they could be used. And, and it shouldn't be just free.

Christiana Figueres: [00:34:25] It shouldn't be free. And there has been so much bioprospecting that has occurred right in on their lands without their permission and without without their without them being recognized. So, about time that this is actually on the table, out in the open and, and hopefully finding its way toward a solution. I don't have any expectation that this is going to be solved between now and the end of this COP, but but it is absolutely on the table and, and and really demanding the attention from everyone who, who is there. So that is a good piece. Monica, is there anything else that you would like to add? What are your feelings for the last few days of the COP? I know the biodiversity COP is now almost at the end of the second week. They have chosen in the Biodiversity COP to continue the tradition of having the high level segment, which is when ministers come at the end of the COP, in the climate convention we turned that upside down in in Paris and have a high level segment at the beginning of the COP, because we felt that we needed the political direction for the whole two weeks. In the biodiversity convention they are still holding their their political high level segment at the end. And as you say, so many of these texts and agreements are in what we call square brackets, another nerdy term, square brackets, means the text is there, but it hasn't been agreed to, and so it remains visibly bracketed in square brackets, literally, until there is enough political consensus to remove the brackets or change the text within the brackets. So I am sure there are lots of square brackets right now and and ministers coming in to provide political guidance. But but but but what is your sense of where we're going to end up at the, at the end?

 Monica Medina: [00:36:36] I think we will have made significant progress, but I don't think it will be nearly enough on financing. We will need, I think, some continued conversation about whether to create a separate fund for nature, or whether the one that the GEF has created for the biodiversity framework and the 30 by 30 goal specifically, whether that's enough. I, I wish I had a good sense of whether I thought a new fund would help. It takes so long to set them up and I think the processes are are difficult. I would rather have us focus on how do we put more money into the fund we have. But I understand that there's a desire to see a big fund that the countries themselves, who are biodiverse, rich countries, have a little more control over. So I, I understand that and I think that the conversation around Brazil's Forest Fund, for example, is a is a really interesting one that will continue. So interestingly, you talked about the comparison between COPs and I do think the high level segment at the end may help to bring things to conclusion sooner. So, you know, the the climate COPs tend to go into over time, if you will.

Christiana Figueres: [00:37:54] Indeed they do.

 Monica Medina: [00:37:56] And I think this one will end on time because we have the ministers here at the end. But again, there are many good conversations that are just starting, one that I'm particularly interested in, that we at CI have been working on is on subsidies. You know, so much of what we do back to that, how does our economy work against nature now, not only have we not valued nature, we're actually doing things in our governments that make it cheaper to use nature for nothing right, we subsidize the exploitation of nature.

Christiana Figueres: [00:38:31] Subsidize the destruction of nature.

 Monica Medina: [00:38:34] Yes, it's crazy, right. You know, we had a great presentation by a wonderful UK parliamentarian here who said, normal people don't think this way, why do politicians. And I thought, well, I can't really answer that question, but I do think the conversation about things like subsidy reform, which is another nerdy topic and a hard one because it requires people to change the way they operate and to think about things, kind of reversing things, maybe thinking about how can I conserve more water instead of using more water. How can I find ways to make the soil more regenerative, even though it doesn't look so nice with all those weeds in between seasons right. There are ways that we we really need to rethink many of our processes and our, our economies in order to make nature much more valued and protected. And that conversation is starting here now.

Christiana Figueres: [00:39:32] Absolutely. And just, just just to give listeners a sense, there are let's just call them destructive subsidies that are operating against us now in the in the fossil fuel world, global subsidies have already exceeded $1 trillion per year.

 Monica Medina: [00:39:57] It's terrible, it's just terrible.

Christiana Figueres: [00:39:57] And I mean, just think of how we could shift that trillion dollars right toward solutions for both climate and biodiversity. What a big change that would be. And then, of course, there are destructive subsidies in the agriculture in the agriculture world as well. Et cetera. Et cetera. So, so yes. And the IMF has done quite a bit of study of the, the level of these, what I'm calling destructive subsidies that is not the official term, but that is my term for them. 

 Monica Medina: [00:40:33] It's true so you can say it.

Christiana Figueres: [00:40:36] But but yes, I hope that that conversation actually goes, goes deeper and faster because what a waste of money. It is not just wasting money it is really, you know, suicidal. It is suicidal for the planet to have these destructive subsidies in place. Monica, thank you so much.

 Monica Medina: [00:40:57] Thank you.

Christiana Figueres: [00:40:57] All the best for the last few days.

 Monica Medina: [00:41:00] Thank you so much. Yes well, I mean, I think it is an exciting time. I think this COP will have some some success, but we'll leave ourselves a lot of room to continue to do more work. And of course, I'm heading back to the US for our elections next week so.

Christiana Figueres: [00:41:16] Yes you are.

 Monica Medina: [00:41:17] Big election and it matters a lot. We have two very different candidates, one who is all about destroying nature, and one is all about clean air and clean water, despite what they may say. And there's always somebody else out there we could persuade. But of course, it matters a lot, I think, to the world. And I will say it does have an impact on on this impetus, this, you know this wave, I hope, of protection for nature.

Christiana Figueres: [00:41:43] Absolutely, absolutely. It is a hugely consequential election with deep, deep consequences for the United States and for the world. There is no doubt, no doubt about that. Monica, thank you so much.

 Monica Medina: [00:41:58] Muchas gracias. This was so fun, thank you.

Christiana Figueres: [00:42:01] Muchas gracias. Wishing you all the best for the last few days and we will be attentive to the final results. Thank you so much for joining us today.

 Monica Medina: [00:42:12] Yes. Thank you. Well, we'll be sprinting to the finish here. Thank you Christiana, for all you do for nature and for this conversation, it's been great.

Christiana Figueres: [00:42:21] Thank you Monica. Okay, folks, so that was one episode from the COP in Cali. We will be back next week with another deep conversation that has to do with the biodiversity COP. And then of course, it will be time for the US election. So here is a spoiler alert. We will be back with you with a conversation about the US election, when we know what the election results are. But before we leave today, just wanted to let you know that we're putting out our listener survey and we would love you to fill it in. It only takes a few minutes. We really want to know what you think of the podcast where you think we ought to be going, and please do give us as much guidance there as possible. We will be reading what you sent in. See you next week with Tom and Paul again, and then holding our breath for the results of the US election, bye.

Share

Latest Insights