299: COP30: Can Brazil deliver a global breakthrough?

Full Transcript

Tom: [00:00:00] This week. We talked this week. This week after my trip last week to. After my trip.

Paul: [00:00:08] It's not going well. Thanks, Paul.

Tom: [00:00:12] Hello and welcome to Outrage and Optimism. I'm Tom Rivett-Carnac

Christiana: [00:00:15] I'm Christiana Figueres.

Paul: [00:00:16] And I'm Paul Dickinson.

Tom: [00:00:17] This week we bring you an update on the preparations for cop 30. What's going to happen? What's the strategy and how can we get involved? Plus, we speak to Anna Toni, CEO of Cop 30, and Gustavo Westman, special adviser in the office of President Lula. Thanks for being. So, friends, lovely to be back with you. I have to say, first of all, before we start, you did a beautiful episode last week. I learned so much about Vanuatu, and I was deeply jealous of your exciting travels, Christiana, and how you got to experience this amazing place. So if there are any listeners out there who have not listened to last week's episode, I strongly encourage you to go back and listen to it.

Paul: [00:00:55] I actually went to Vanuatu by interviewing Christiana about her trip there. There was enough that took me there. So I was kind of, you know, zero carbon trip to Vanuatu.

Christiana: [00:01:03] Good job, good job.

Tom: [00:01:04] Well, if everyone who listened had that experience, it was a very low carbon trip to Vanuatu. It was beautiful and it really made me feel like I'd had an experience with the spirit of the place. So amazing work. And this week we're going to talk about the trip that I recently had to Brazil. And we have some amazing special guests who will make appearances later. But just before we get to that, there has been a consequential verdict in the case that we talked about a while ago, which is Luciano Loya in his case against RWE, and we talked a couple of weeks ago about this verdict. Cristiana, before we came on out, I described that as the fact that it was dismissed. But you quite rightly picked me up and said that's not the correct way to characterize it. So why don't you explain to the listeners what happened?

Christiana: [00:01:42] Well, as is usual in these cases, it can everybody can claim victory here. And it really depends on how you want to interpret what the court said. So the court has said that there is not direct, Let's say, direct risk of the glacial lake flooding Luciano's town, and therefore they did not allocate any compensatory funding for it. But what they did say, which I think from our point of view is the important part, is they confirm that companies can be held liable for climate damages in civil proceedings. So that was the whole point of the of the case. I honestly don't think Luciano did this. Well. I know for sure that he did not do this for the money in it or to be allocated any funding. He was suing R.W. this German company for about €15,000. That was.

Paul: [00:02:47] Correct. It was 0.5% of the cost of what was estimated to be the damage caused by the glacial lake bursting onto his town.

Christiana: [00:02:55] So evidently it's not about the money. It's about the principle of the matter. Yeah. The whole point is actually to build the jurisprudence that will be at the basis of future lawsuits. So I think it's a win.

Paul: [00:03:10] I mean, the principle is the key. You know, damages will end fossil fuels, period. Simple. Clear. That's my view.

Tom: [00:03:19] Okay. That's really helpful to explain that actually, because the key point as exactly as you say is the principle. And if we can move forward, the principle is established. Then we get to the point of damages when we can prove the connection. And that is tragically only becoming more and more evident as the time passes and the crisis gets worse. So thank you for explaining that, Christiano.

Paul: [00:03:36] Well, we're going to dig into it in future episodes, so let's move on.

Tom: [00:03:39] Okay. Should we turn to Brazil?

Paul: [00:03:40] Yes. What were you doing in Brazil, Tom?

Tom: [00:03:43] Well, this is my first trip to Brazil for many years. And my first ever trip to Brasilia. I was there for a couple of reasons. I was participating with our groundswell colleagues in a round table in Rio with various members of the government and Brazilian civil society. Looking at preparations for the Cop. And then I went with a delegation of companies that are part of the climate Pledge to Brasilia, and met with different parts of the Lula administration to discuss what the preparations were for the cop. I've got to say, I have had a kind of crash course in Brazilian politics, and I don't know how much of your lives. Youtube, probably. Cristiana. Quite a lot have spent time thinking about the vagaries and the nuances of Brazilian politics, but it is fascinating and complicated. And I learned the phrase coalition presidential ism when I was there. So Lula is, of course, the president, but he is leading a coalition government that he has had to pull together to enable him to get legislation through the Congress, which at the moment is very difficult given the nature of his multi-polar coalition. He has had to, in all things, kind of pass out responsibility for key jobs across government to different people that represent different political persuasions.

Tom: [00:04:56] So partly as a result of that, responsibility for Cop 30 sits in many places across his government. The logistics sit in one place, the strategy sits in another, the diplomacy sits in another. And it sort of blew my mind at how they're able to coordinate this across government. I mean, I had the sense they must spend their lives coordinating between different departments. I think it's very complicated. But also, I had a bit of an insight into the way in which they're trying to balance environmental and climate leadership into a country that is really gripped by populist politics. I mean, let's not forget Bolsonaro was in power before the previous election. There's another one coming up next year. And one amazing statistic I came across is. So let me ask you this question. If you were to poll rural Brazilians and ask them, are you in favor of both drilling for oil and gas in the Amazon and increasing Amazonian deforestation to support livelihoods of rural Brazilians. What percentage do you think would be in favor of that policy?

Paul: [00:05:55] Very high.

Tom: [00:05:56] 93%. So that is the context that they are trying to push through environmental leadership on the world stage. There has been a push to start real oil and gas exploration in the Amazon. Lula has come out in support of that. It's currently being blocked by his government. But that just gives you kind of a broad picture of the context that they're in and where they're trying to lead.

Paul: [00:06:16] Good news is the environment's 100% of everything. So it's a bigger percentage. Yes, 100%.

Christiana: [00:06:21] The the next election is October of 2026. Correct? Lula aspires to run again. Question mark. He had said in the beginning that he wasn't going to. But I think he has concluded that he better aspire for a re-election because the alternatives are way too scary for him. So is that is that true? And how does that aspiration, how does that affect how he sees the cop?

Tom: [00:06:48] Yeah, it's a great question, Christiana. And that's I think that's behind it being in Belgium, that's behind a whole load of different decisions that we've seen manifest. My understanding is he will run again and there is a whole array of kind of heirs to Bolsonaro who are lining up opposite him, who want to take on the right wing mantle. And as you just heard, that poll statistic, they have fertile ground to operate in and to try to talk to people and say, you know, these people in Brasilia, they don't represent you. So I think as a result of that, we're seeing Lula walk a very delicate political line where he is trying to lead the world on environmentalism and climate leadership and forests. I really do think that's true. Having met senior people in his administration. But the space he has to operate before he gets accused by his political rivals of putting a globalist environmental agenda ahead of real working Brazilians is incredibly slim. So you see him kind of playing both roles, like pushing for an end of fossil fuels, as we'll hear from certain parts of his government, but then pushing to expand oil and gas drilling in the Amazon, on the other hand. So that's going to be, I think, the nature of this political process that they're trying to undertake.

Christiana: [00:08:00] Yeah, it's such a difficult situation that he's in because he knows from his perspective, it is better for Brazil that his coalition continues in some way, shape or form. And he definitely wants Brazil on the international stage. But it's sort of counterintuitive or actually completely against most opinion in Brazil. It's a very difficult position that he's in.

Tom: [00:08:26] And actually, I was going to ask you Christianity. I mean, you've known Brazilian politics a long time since you were sort of supporting governments across Latin America and developing their strategies for climate negotiations. Was it ever thus in Brazil? I mean, is this what Brazilian politics is like on this issue, or is this different to how you've known it over the years?

Christiana: [00:08:44] I'm really stepping here above my pay grade. Thank you for giving me way too much credit for knowing internal Brazil. I have the sense that Brazil has always had to manage international positioning and responsibility on the one hand, and local interests or national interest on the other. I think they're always tried to manage that. I think they always positioned themselves internationally as responsible political, social, economic agents and then they have a hard time internally. So I think it's always been for them, but it is a starker version of it that they're facing this year in next year.

Tom: [00:09:24] Yeah. And because the election is so soon, right, it's just nine months after the cop.

Paul: [00:09:28] Pandora, Steve Bannon is sort of out of the box now and has sort of infected global politics with the idea that there's a trade off between kind of fossil fuel and deforestation, wealth and the climate. And unfortunately that's what we're up against in every country, I think.

Tom: [00:09:41] So just to get into it, I mean, the first thing I would say just as a very one liner, because I know this is on the minds of so many people in the climate movement who are trying to work out their own strategy for BLM. There's been all these rumors circulating. Will it be in BLM? Will it not be in BLM? It's going to be in BLM. It's going to be in an old airfield to the north of the city. They have been looking at whether or not they could position cruise ships in the town. Those cruise ships cannot be docked in the old town at the bottom of BLM due to dredging issues in the in the river. So they will be docked north of the climate negotiations. So there will be 5 or 6000 beds on those cruise ships. And in the south, in the old town of BLM, is where much of the accommodation is located. Many people are finding it's extremely expensive and I think there will be more beds made available. But the logistics are going to be super tough, so I suspect people will be sending smaller delegations. There will be less people on the ground in previous cops, and we will continue to keep you updated with information as that happens. But that's probably enough on logistics, because that's a subset of our listeners who are interested.

Christiana: [00:10:44] Sorry. I think we owe our listeners 1 or 2 more details.

Paul: [00:10:47] Okay. More lines.

Christiana: [00:10:49] There's no price control on lodgings. So you are charged thousands of dollars per night and the government is not going to step in. And that is true. Is that true?

Tom: [00:10:59] Correct. The government has made a decision not to step in. And I think that speaks again to the politics. Some people are renting homes for as much as the value of the entire home over those two weeks. And you can't blame them, right?

Christiana: [00:11:10] You can't blame them. And so that actually means that there is an inclusion issue here, because it means that those people who are on tight budgets, which is the majority of population on this planet, will not be able to go simply because they can't afford to. So, Tom, I'm going to really push you here. Is this going to be a cop for rich people?

Tom: [00:11:31] It's a fascinating question, and I think that two things will happen. I think that there will be less of the global climate movement going to be as there is in previous years, is, but I think you will see more participation and potentially more accreditation of people local to Belem who will then go and experience the Kop. So I think it will be more locally relevant than many cops that we've seen before, certainly in the green zone, which is the non UN zone, as veterans of the Cop will know in the blue zone. I also think you might see a smaller international delegation of the climate movement and more local people participating. And I think that's kind of what the Brazilians want.

Christiana: [00:12:08] And is there anything to some rumors that I've heard that part of the non negotiating space, the non-formal space, is actually going to migrate over to Rio, and that most of the climate community will be having its meetings and its events in real.

Tom: [00:12:26] It's a great question. So the week before the cop starts, there will be the head of state summit in Belem, which is before it gets designated as UN territory. So it's before the cop starts like a few days before.

Christiana: [00:12:38] But in Berlin.

Tom: [00:12:39] In Belem. But in Rio that week, there will be a whole series of climate related events, such as the Earthshot Prize, of course, Christiana, that you will be there for the C40 summit. Pri in person will be happening in Sao Paulo. So many people who are representing corporates or representing NGOs may decide to just go to Rio for that period and then maybe go to Belem for a night or two, or maybe not even at all. I think that's quite likely how people will end up participating.

Christiana: [00:13:06] Yeah, the night or two is not quite an option because most of the lodging you have to buy it for the whole two weeks or not. Isn't that.

Tom: [00:13:14] True? I think that's true. And the prices are, I mean, 25, $26,000 for two weeks. I mean, it's bonkers. Now, that may come down when the official beds are released from the cruise ships. They're going to be posted there, but it's not going to be it's not going to be cheap. So during my time in Brasilia, I spoke to Ana Toni, CEO of Cop 30, as we were walking around the enormous and beautiful Foreign Affairs building And obviously we are facing a very difficult geopolitical context to host a cop. That was actually where I started in my first conversation with her. So let's listen in to what she said. Anna, it's so nice to see you. We've had it. I've had the privilege of spending some time with you this week. We were together in Rio and we're together now here in Brasilia. You just gave this very inspiring message to a group of businesses gathered here in Brasilia around the cop. I just want to start off six months to go. How are you feeling?

Ana Toni: [00:14:01] I'm feeling good. Despite of what's happening. The geopolitics, you know, military wars, trade wars.

Tom: [00:14:08] It seems like a quite a difficult moment to run a cop if i'm honest.

Ana Toni: [00:14:11] At the same time, I feel that people really wanted to. In this moment of difficulty, people get together and wants to do things together. So the big word is togetherness feels that when you have a big problem, united all of us. So I feel united. I feel that people wanted to to really strengthen multilateralism and the importance of us together combat climate change. So I'm positive, but that's also by my nature.

Tom: [00:14:41] Yeah, there's a lot of positivity here in Brasilia, which, I.

Paul: [00:14:43] Mean, she's expressing what I think is the genius of Brazil, the call to collective action. And it can strike a chord from Tokyo to London, from Mexico City to Lagos can light up the world.

Tom: [00:14:54] 100%, Paul. And that call is what's what we need to hear, right? We have become used to focusing on our own part of this challenge. But there needs to be these moments of collective effort. And I think what the Brazilian government and Antonio in these great leaders are calling us to is to step forward at this moment when it's really needed, needed more than ever.

Paul: [00:15:11] By the way, I think you did a fantastic job of being roving reporter.

Tom: [00:15:14] I wish I'd brought more recordings because there were some amazing people, but we've got some great stuff coming up and I just want to set up. There are essentially four areas that we need to cover off in this podcast to help listeners understand. And this is how the Brazilian government itself is dividing up what needs to happen. There is the head of state summit that, as we've already said, will happen a few days before the cop in Belgium, the negotiations themselves and what Brazil is hoping to deliver through the negotiating process. Then there's the action agenda, which is all of the other non-state actors. And then finally, there is a word that many listeners may have never heard before, which is the mural mural. We'll put how to spell it in the show notes. And this is the desire of Brazil to create a big global movement that we are all participating in. So think of this as the layers of an onion with the head of state, some in the middle, and the negotiations, the action agenda, and then the mural, which is the critical context that all of this happens within.

Christiana: [00:16:08] So, Tom, let me let me ask you this. The head of State summit is going to take place in Belém, but before the UN conference starts. Why is that.

Tom: [00:16:20] So? Actually, a question ahead for you is has this ever been done before? Have they ever actually assembled heads of state while it's still national territory before it becomes UN territory?

Christiana: [00:16:28] No, it's quite creative.

Tom: [00:16:29] I think it's to do with logistics mainly. I think that the number of beds available in Belgium and how stacked and full the city will become. I asked a couple of people and they said they thought about this and thought about then adding as many as 100 or 120 heads of state into this very compressed logistical context, and they decided to just reduce the pressure and do it before. So I think it's as simple as that. Nevertheless, the opportunity of this head of state summit happening immediately before the Cop is to send a strong signal to negotiators, as you know better than anyone, Christiana, in order to try to drive them to actually deliver something really meaningful in the subsequent two weeks. So I think there's a few things we can maybe touch on that we might see come out of that head of state summit. And I think at the core of this, of course, is the next round of nationally determined commitments under the Paris Agreement. I can't believe I've explained this to you. Countries come back to the table every five years and provide their next round of commitments. This year in Brazil is the deadline for countries bringing forward their 2030 to 2035 commitments. And this is a really difficult political context. They were supposed to be in in February.

Tom: [00:17:39] And right now only 21 have been submitted. As we know well, Christiana, big, ambitious years are usually presaged by a big bilateral deal between the US and China to set the tone for the ambition. That's obviously not coming this year. So there's a lot of hope that actually the EU will play a big role to bring the world together. But the EU has not yet agreed to its own 2040 target. So there's a lot happening in the EU to try to bring them forward and then think, could there be an EU China summit? Would that enable them to show the world where we need to get to? The president has been traveling a lot, trying to speak to partners in the EU, in Saudi Arabia to bring forward this ambition that hopefully will land before we all get to Berlin. But the final moment that they hope will be delivered is that in Belgium? Countries will come back to the table with their nationally determined commitments that take into account the global stocktake that came out two years ago to actually get the world back on track to 1.5 degrees. But as we know very well, with the US completely absent from the negotiations. That's a really tough ask.

Christiana: [00:18:46] Okay, I have two reactions to that. The first, I have a pain at the bottom of my stomach to think that the country of Brazil needs to provide for security for X number of heads of state. How many heads of state are they expect?

Tom: [00:19:02] 100 100 to 120.

Christiana: [00:19:03] Okay. I mean that already gives me a pain at the bottom of my stomach. Because if you do this within the UN conference, then the UN security is completely deployed.

Tom: [00:19:14] That's a great point. I hadn't thought about that of course. Yeah.

Christiana: [00:19:17] But assuming and I, I definitely assume that they have considered this and that they are ready to step up to that. But the other thing, Tom, I am surprised that your comment is that they expect the EU to step up because that comes out of the paradigm that we will continue to see leadership from the usual suspects. On this podcast, we have discussed a couple of times that perhaps Brazil, this cop may be the beginning of new leadership of the BRICs, being that Brazil is one of the BRICs. So I wonder if in conversations with them, did they have any comments about the fact that in the absence of the United States and the EU, still uncertain about what it's doing, are they mobilising the BRICs? It seems to me like such a huge opportunity to change the paradigm of leadership 100%.

Tom: [00:20:19] And so I don't think obviously leadership can only come from the EU. They are definitely hoping the EU will step up and encourage China to go further, but that's not what they're relying on wholly. And in fact, a senior official said to me, a very nice moment actually, where she said, when you come here, do you feel optimism? And I was like, yes, I really do. I mean, everyone is like, we're going to do this. And they said, if you go to India, do you feel optimism? And I said, yes, I do. And they said, look, this is the thing. You go to the BRICs countries and you feel optimism and excitement and possibility, and they are very much pushing their BRICs colleagues because Brazil has come forward already with its NDC. They want to see India, China, you know, Russia, who knows South Africa and the other members of the BRICs step forward and take the lead here. However, the feeling I also got because I did ask that exact question, Christiana, is unless you see some commensurate partnering, mirroring leadership that comes from the EU and from others, that hand is not so strong that they expect the BRICs to step forward in the absence of all of those traditional what used to be called annex one country stepping forward. So there's still a degree of waiting to see what comes out of the EU before we see this leadership come forward from the BRICs.

Christiana: [00:21:32] Fair enough. Fair enough. But I think that that balance that you speak of is a pretty new balance. Yeah. Heretofore, we expected leadership to always come from developed countries. And the fact that there is I don't know if an expectation, but certainly an opportunity for some developing countries to step forward, I think is very exciting.

Paul: [00:21:53] Yeah. A Brazilian businessperson explained this to me once, saying, you know, when you start to see the direct flights from Sao Paulo to Mumbai, you'll start to realize that the axis has changed and that not everything is going via Europe or the US or whatever.

Christiana: [00:22:06] Yeah, exactly.

Tom: [00:22:07] Now, the other thing, which I think is likely to be landed at the head of state summit, is the Tropical Forest Forever facility. And this is something which is being developed very extensively and actively at the moment by the Brazilian government. And it is the creation of a new fund, which is pretty innovative in its nature to create a flow of revenue that can facilitate and encourage countries that have a large amount of standing tropical forests to preserve those forests. The Tropical Forest Forever facility is such a great idea that countries put money in. It generates a return, and that return is used to encourage countries that have significant tropical forests to keep it standing. How is that going? Because it feels like such a difficult moment to capitalize a new fund.

Ana Toni: [00:22:50] I think it's the right moment because also there is big doubts about how much more money can we get from donations. So yes, it's a difficult time where countries are diminishing their aid budget. At the same time, we're not asking for aid. We are asking for investment. It's a low return investment, but is investment. So what we are saying if you want to be part of the solution, get your money that you have invested in a pension fund. Continued investing in a secured manner that you get 3% or 4%. You get that return, and we use the money to generate more than 3 or 4%. And then this money is what is going to be remunerated in the people that are protecting the forest. So it's a different way of thinking is a public private.

Tom: [00:23:42] It could be donor countries, could be pension funds. It could be anyone who capitalizes.

Ana Toni: [00:23:46] Absolutely.

Tom: [00:23:46] Got it.

Ana Toni: [00:23:47] Absolutely. Especially pension funds. Yeah. Because those are obviously we will need.

Tom: [00:23:52] Long term patient capital.

Ana Toni: [00:23:53] Yeah, exactly. Those is because they spread between what they need for return secure return 3%. Triple A 3%. How do we use that money to generate more than 3% 4 or 5. And the difference between 3 and 4 and five. That difference is what's going to be remunerated. The farmer or the indigenous persons that is protecting the forest.

Tom: [00:24:19] I mean, what is astonishing about that idea is the delta between 3 and 4%, and the return you can get can save the world's tropical forests. I mean, people need to understand.

Ana Toni: [00:24:26] And why a pension fund or a government would not want to be part. Yeah, they're not losing absolutely anything. Yeah.

Tom: [00:24:34] This is an innovative idea. It's an innovative mechanism where money is put in and there's a return generated, as we said there. And the delta is actually what's provided to these countries. There are clearly challenges around where the money would be deployed. How what would the safeguards be. But I think it's actually a really interesting model, and I hope to see that they can capitalize it. They're seeking to raise 125 billion by the time of the Cop. And it seems to me a difficult moment to be raising money, but a bold initiative and quite exciting. What do you both think?

Christiana: [00:25:02] I think it's a brilliant idea, and I think it begins to crack the nut of what is the finance model, or the financial flow model that you can create in order to invest into forest restoration and forest preservation. So I think it's a great idea, and I have it from a very credible source that the current conception, there are quite a few loopholes and perverse incentives that could end up changing the impact of it to exactly the opposite to what it is intended to do. So I guess here, just a word of caution. Just to make sure that this very good idea actually gets executed in a good way.

Paul: [00:25:46] Yeah. A couple of decades ago, someone said to me that something like this had been proposed. And the idea, the fear was that anyone near a forest would buy a chainsaw and say, where's my money? Because it's you. You've got an incentive to be paid to not cut down a forest. But if there are proper government controls, look, you know, everyone wants free money and it's only said nobody's losing anything. But there's also money to to pay farmers, for example. Well, that does mean that someone's losing something. But, you know, guess what? Pension funds. The public invest in their best interests for the long term and the elderly invest for their grandchildren. So there is a business case for this. Actuaries can understand that, and it just requires the sort of the wisdom and the good judgment of pension fund trustees, of which there are many with a lot of wisdom and a lot of good judgment.

Tom: [00:26:26] Yeah. No, I completely take some of the concerns around this, but I think that what I take heart from and the same very good source that you referenced, Christiana, I think I spoke to the same person and I think that these are addressable. So we need to sort of like identify how we can make sure those safeguards are put in place. Now our production team are going to kill us in a minute because we've taken up most of the time, we should be a lot further on in this agenda. So let's move on and start talking about the other issues. Let's take a quick break first. And when we come back we will talk about the negotiations. Welcome back everyone. And one of the things that we talked about as a critical outcome that the Brazilian government is thinking around, is the negotiations under the INF treaty themselves. Clearly, since the Paris Agreement and then the finalisation of the rulebook and the implementation plan. There is less to negotiate, and this is more now about how do we pivot to action. But one thing that I think the Brazilian government are really feeling like they have a responsibility to navigate is language in the text that will come out of the cop around the end of fossil fuels. Listeners may remember that in Dubai, there was language in the declaration that was around transitioning away from fossil fuels in energy systems, and there is a lot of pressure on the Brazilian government to take this further in the negotiated outcome that comes out of Belém. And this is something I spoke both to Ana Toni about, but also first to Gustavo Westman, who is the special adviser for international affairs in the office of President Lula. So let's start off by listening to what he had to say about this issue into the office. I'd also just like to ask you about a couple of the difficult issues in negotiations.

Gustavo Westman: [00:28:05] Sure.

Tom: [00:28:05] Go ahead. So in particular, one of the things that has come up so much in recent years is around fossil fuel phaseout. Do you see any possibility that there is a pathway there to introduce that? Because it's been very difficult in recent years in the negotiation to find any landing ground that we can agree on.

Gustavo Westman: [00:28:22] Well, Tom, that's the white elephant in the room. Right. So we're very concerned about it. And I think we all know that we have to start discussing the phase out of fossil fuels. We can no longer keep giving a blind eye to this matter. The problem is how to do so. As I was telling you before, Brazil has always been very vocal and active in the climate agenda. But once you start hosting a cop, it's a very different perspective because you have to reach consensus. So by by having this responsibility, we have to be very cautious on how to deal with different issues. We're still working on that. I think we will not be able to avoid the discussion, but how to present it and how to engage different countries into that conversation is still an open question. I believe after Bonn, we may have some more clearance on how to to deal with such a central matter, but we are concerned about it and we want to to put or to take the white elephant out of the room.

Tom: [00:29:24] Gustavo really set out the issues there. However, when I pose the same question to Ana Toni, she highlighted an interesting way forward that was around a partnership between both producers of fossil fuels, but also consumers.

Ana Toni: [00:29:37] I mean, the debate about fossil fuels that we have seen. First, it's important for us to remember we decided we are going to transition in a way. And for that, we need the producers and the consumers of fossil fuel agreeing on how that transition will happen. It's not just for producers or for consumers. It needs to be a joint because it needs to be orderly. We have some good news. We saw what now China seems to have peak emissions. Just gives us a lot of hope on how that trajectory is going to be. There is still a big fight on. When are we going to be picking fossil fuel? I think that's a big debate. The International Energy Agency versus OPEC. What is the date of peaking or not peaking? And I think that's a little theoretic. What is going to make fossil fuel going down or a spike in fossil fuel. Is implementation right. Is implementation of the commitments that we have made. And everybody can again contribute. So I hope that in our cop negotiation action agenda we all face, what we need to face is how are we going to transition away from fossil fuels.