314: From Courtrooms to Statehouses: The US Climate Pushback

Peter Neronha: [00:21:35] Well, I think there are a lot of concerns. Obviously, you know, this has produced 2500 good paying jobs nationwide. 1200 here in Rhode Island certainly will continue to produce jobs going forward. The industry itself, we're not just talking about Revolution Wind. There are other projects that are in earlier stages of permitting or construction. This endangers them as well. Of course, the president has pulled almost $700 million from other projects. So there's great concern among workers and the clean energy industry. And look, when the president does this kind of strange, irrational turnaround, businesses don't want to make decisions based on a lack of rationality. So, you know, just take it from any corporation's Operations perspective. You've invested in a project. It's 80% complete. The equipment to bring to the site is enormous and enormously expensive. And then the rug is pulled out from under you at the last minute. Why would anyone go forward in this industry, which is probably the president's intent, but it's broader than that. Nearly everything this president does is different three days later than on the day he makes his initial decision. And that lack of predictability and reliability is a problem both as a policy. But it's also a problem in terms of the law, which is why, again, I'm confident that our lawsuit here in the District of Rhode Island in federal court will have success.

Paul: [00:22:59] We have huge US companies like Microsoft, Apple and Google that have made the strongest possible statements in support of renewable energy. Have any of them come forward to put their weight behind your suit?

Peter Neronha: [00:23:10] Well, not not as of yet. But you raise a good point, Paul, because, you know, we are energy guzzlers here in the United States. That's probably true worldwide as well, as we move into ever more complicated projects that, you know, from some perspectives, I'm a little old fashioned. I don't love AI. You know, every time I run a search online, that's I'm getting an answer. And in areas that I know about a little bit, they're not always accurate. But the truth is, as AI becomes more of a thing, if you will, it needs a lot of energy. We've got to feed the beast. And one of the ways to do that is to harness this clean and reliable energy like wind. Look, I'm a sailor, and I feel the power of wind when I'm out there on the water. It's all around you. And to not harness it in a way to meet our energy needs and meet it in a way that is good for the planet just makes no sense to me. And my colleague, Attorney General Tong, and a lot of other Rhode Islanders and people of Connecticut, and that's why I believe there's a lot of support for this lawsuit in our states.

Sophia Li: [00:24:13] So President Trump and key cabinet members. They have been vocal against offshore wind, saying that it brings more economic and environmental damage to the average resident. Let's set the record straight for a Rhode Island or Connecticut resident. What is the halt of this project mean for their electricity costs?

Peter Neronha: [00:24:34] First of all, electricity costs are very high. And it's because we are at the end of the gas pipeline network. We don't have access to hydroelectric power like, say, the state of New York or some of the northern New England states. And our energy rates fluctuate. So some of us rely on home heating oil, some of us rely on natural gas. But either way, particularly in the winter, our energy costs really, really fluctuate and spike. And they have over the last several years. And so what is really good about wind energy is it's predictable. The winds have been blowing off the coast of our states for millennia. And so we know what it will bring. We can predict it once it's online, and Rhode Islanders in the long run will save money. And as Paul pointed out, it's being used all over, all over the world, especially in Europe. I've been to England, I've seen, uh, in Scotland and and seen the wind farms there. There's no reason not to bring the energy online. But we've got to get away from this irrational decision making and, and stabilize energy prices for our residents. And this project will go a long way to doing that.

Paul: [00:25:39] This is not just a domestic matter for the United States. We have a massive rights issue from a leading European company, Orsted, who have, you know, suffered significantly as a result of this inexplicable action. How can global investors and global corporations help support the kind of rule of contract law in the United States, which is what has built your economy into the greatest economy in the world currently?

Peter Neronha: [00:26:00] Well, look, I think there are ways to do that right here in our courtroom. And so, uh, in Rhode Island. So there are, you know, friends of the court briefs or amicus briefs that we call them where, you know, a A non-party can let the court know exactly what the impact will be on global industry. One of the things that we need to show, and I'm confident we can show it, is the irreparable harm that halting this project will do, not just for Rhode Islanders and for the people of Connecticut, but for the industry as a whole, and will obviously cause companies not to want to do work at a minimum here in the United States. But I'm confident we're going to be able to carry the flag here on behalf of this industry. And frankly, the people not only of our states but of the United States. Look, we're wired to fight as attorneys general. We know what fights are righteous. This is a righteous fight, and we're going to be in it until the end.

Paul: [00:26:54] So let me ask Sophia and you, Mr. Attorney General, both the same question. You know, I'm from outside of the United States, but we were having some discussion about an inability to discuss climate change in in US political discourse at the moment. What do you think is happening with the with the sort of suppression of debate. And how do we get through to the other side of that?

Peter Neronha: [00:27:13] I think that the president's approach to everything is to bully people into silence. And whether you're an academic institution or you're a company or whether you're an attorney general, it is to sue, accuse, pressure, bully, suppress dissent. And it's incumbent on us to stand up. This president is captive to the fossil fuel industry. We have a lawsuit against them as well here in the office, because they have lied to the American people for decades. And through this president, they continue to lie about the impact of climate change. You know, we were on a pretty good path, even among people who had denied it for years. The president, through his his ability to move his supporters, really taking us backwards rather than pushing us forward, which is not what leadership is. The key here is for people not to allow themselves to be bullied and not to be afraid. I give Orsted the company involved here, good credit to file their own lawsuit. We should be making decisions based on what's right and what's best, and what the science and the data show us, and what that shows us over and over and over again is that we need clean, reliable energy. This project is one path to get us there. It's just stupid to head in the other direction now.

Paul: [00:28:28] Pete, if I put it to you in these simple terms you said in another interview I listened to, I'm Not Wired for surrender. And my observation, if I may, about the Trump administration, is it does not engage on the climate change issue. It does not talk about it, does not talk about extreme weather, does not talk about risks to the economy or people's homes or whatever. It simply doesn't talk about it. You know, you're in a sense, I'm going to call you an accidental leader, but you're the leader of an opposition against the business opportunities in emissions free energy. And so I guess my last question to you is, is, as you look forward, what's your navigational instrument? What's your what's your hope and what's your belief? And and I guess we've said it before a little bit, but there are many thousands of people listening to this podcast. What can they do to help?

Peter Neronha: [00:29:14] Well, you know, for me, the North Star is following my instincts about what is right. I've been in this job now for seven years. I've loved every minute of it. But what's always guided me is trying to do what, in my judgment, is right and what's best based on real facts. You know, I'm married to a physician, so when I'm making decisions about what to do, that's what I base it on. And I'm going to continue to do that until my term as attorney general ends in 2026. With a great team that I have here. How can people help? Well, look, if you're in the States when it comes to climate change, you need to speak up. I agree, Paul. We don't talk about it anywhere near as much as we used to. The president's impacting us in so many negative ways that are right in front of us. But climate is too. It's harder in some ways if you're not thinking about it or you're not conscious of it, to see it, but we need to bring that same sense of urgency and not be afraid to talk about it. Americans, in particular need to recognize that standing up and speaking out is part of what our nation was founded on. And if you go back and read the Declaration of Independence, it reminds us over and over again it is our right to speak up and say what's on our mind, and not to be concerned about repercussions from either side of the spectrum, the irrational spectrums. So continue to speak up. Help us where you can. As attorneys general, we're going to continue the fight. And yeah, we you know, surrendering or backing down is not how any of us here are wired. And we're going to continue to think that way.

Paul: [00:30:46] That gives me huge confidence that you will prevail and science will prevail.

Peter Neronha: [00:30:51] Well thanks, Paul.

Sophia Li: [00:30:52] Yeah. Thank you so much, Attorney General, for never surrendering. I feel like one of Trump's biggest what he's instilling is he's he's exhausting and distracting And what you show us is defensive. Hope. I'm just wondering, for my our last question is how do we tap into this defensive hope?

Peter Neronha: [00:31:13] Yeah, well, I look at it, Sophia, as offensive hope. Right. The best defense is a great offense. And I like getting out on offense against bullies like this guy. At the end of the day, it's about the fight. I really do believe that it's the fight that matters. But what's important is that if you feel like the wrong thing has happened in this case, the president has violated the law. In my job, you have an obligation to fight on behalf of your people, to hold him accountable. He is not all powerful. As president, I have seen Americans in ways I've never seen before, stand up and rally peacefully against the policies of this president. Um, and I'm proud of them, and it inspires me, and I think it inspires my fellow Democratic attorneys general. So we know there's going to be a lot more work. You know, my only my only regret, frankly, is that because I can't run for a third term, I'm going to have to leave the fight before it's over. But I'm going to continue to participate any way that I can. And my goal over the next 15 months is to run through the tape and then hand the baton to somebody that will pick it up and continue the fight, and I'm confident that we're going to be able to do that.

Paul: [00:32:20] I cannot see you leaving the fight anytime soon. Thank you so much for your time today. We really greatly appreciate it.

Peter Neronha: [00:32:26] Thank you Paul. Thank you Sophia.

Sophia Li: [00:32:28] Thank you so much. Attorney general.

Paul: [00:32:34] Honestly, I I'm really touched. Sophia. Like the great tradition of a public servant in a great democracy speaking truth to power, considering the interests of the people they represent, and with the kind of clarity and force and confidence and hope. I guess that comes from knowing that you're on the right side of history. I was very moved by that interview. What about you?

Sophia Li: [00:32:59] Yeah, same. I almost got emotional at the end because I think it's been quite embarrassing to be an American the past year, and quite embarrassing to be an American during his first administration. And he the attorney general, he reminded me of what being an American is, is continuing to fight, continuing to speak out, continuing to empower the checks and balance and the democracy system we have. We are the oldest democracy in the world. Why wouldn't we protect and fight for that? And yeah, he just made me so proud to be an American again.

Paul: [00:33:31] Don't be ashamed to be a citizen of the United States. It's a great nation. And, you know, all sorts of nations go through funny periods at funny times. But I just think, you know, you can't bet against climate change. This too will pass. That gives me hope.

Sophia Li: [00:33:45] I think what we learned here is that he is leading other attorney generals to take the charge, and to take the power of law into their own hands. That's exactly why they're the attorney generals of their state.

Christiana: [00:33:57] Yes, that's why they're there. That's what they're there for. They're not there to rubber stamp federal or current administration policies and views.

Paul: [00:34:07] Standing up for contracts and laws. And, you know, that's how the whole enormous world's largest economy was built. So well done for defending it.

Tom: [00:34:16] Now we're going to hear a note from Jenille Scott. She is the climate director at ALIGN: the Alliance for a Greater New York. And this really illustrates the way in which some leaders, like Jenille, are beginning to look at jobs and economic indicators alongside other ways in which we're driving forward climate action. So let's have a listen.

Jenille Scott: [00:34:33] Hello. My name is Jenille Scott, and I'm the climate director at ALIGN:, the Alliance for Greater New York, where we bring together labor, climate and community organizations for a more just and sustainable New York. Here in New York State, our Climate North Star is a Climate Leadership and Community Protection Act, otherwise known as the Clcpa, which is a massive victory for New York in 2019 because it put the state on a path to carbon neutrality requiring greenhouse gas emissions of 40% by 2030 and 85% by 2050. But in order for us to do our emissions reductions, we need the money to make that happen. And so the biggest tool we have that we're advocating for right now is a strong cap and invest program, which would cap greenhouse gas emissions and allow the investment of revenue into community led climate action at the city level. We just relaunched our Green Healthy Schools campaign, and this is where we are advocating for the city to make investments into the aging infrastructure that is here in New York City, and making sure that schools are healthy for students and for workers, which would create 321,000 jobs and also reduce the energy cost for the Department of Education. And so we see New York City as the opportunity to be a model for climate and policy. And so we've made huge progress by setting our goals with the Clcpa at the state level, as well as our city level work. And so our movement continues to fight to ensure that we get the resources we need to make this happen. And we'll do that no matter who is in the white House.

Sophia Li: [00:35:58] One of the most incredible things that Jenille mentioned is that the Clcpa would create 321,000 jobs. That is huge. That means it's bringing so many more jobs in a very tired economy right now to the state of New York.

Christiana: [00:36:13] Well, in addition to the creation of jobs that you've mentioned, Sophia, it just strikes me that we've been saying this over and over again, but it requires saying it again. How many benefits are accrued by actually reducing greenhouse gas emissions out of our economy? Because she points out that schools can become healthy for students. Who knew? Since when is that not an aim? Right? Yes, the creation of jobs, but also that the Department of Education can reduce its costs. The fact is that there's such a layering of benefits that come from the reduction of greenhouse gases in the energy system and in the global economy. And and we've been saying this ad nauseam, but we have to continue saying it ad nauseam because it's somehow not reaching the level of decision making where it ought to make a difference.

Paul: [00:37:23] I think it's part of a flawed narrative about cost. And you've heard me say this before, but since the European countries said they'd put 5% of GDP into defense, stock markets kind of went up in response. And I'm not a fan of Prime Minister Meloni of Italy, but she did manage to say a bridge between Italy and Sicily was going to be part of the defense budget of Italy, which I think is very clever. But the point being, investment drives economic growth. And so this is a great example of job creation that then feeds through to economic advancement. This basic Keynesianism?

Tom: [00:37:55] Yeah. It needs to be the core of all of our narrative from now on. It's like, how does this meet people? How does it help them in their lives? Anything beyond that, that is esoteric or outside of cost or outside of where people are in their lives, I think is just actually not helping us move forward. And it makes people like us seem more out of touch with the issues that are relevant to people. Okay, so let's go to our final guest, probably well known to many listeners. Adam Met one third of the multi-platinum, award winning band AJR and also an incredible leader on climate, founder of Planet Reimagined, professor at Columbia University. Here is our conversation with Adam Met. Adam Met. What a pleasure to have you back on outrage and Optimism. It's great to see you. You and I saw a bit of each other over the summer. We went to Glastonbury, we did an event in London, and we're going to be together in New York, but we'll get to that in a minute. We don't have you for very long today, but we just wanted to have you on to talk specifically about this remarkable document that you shared with me about a week ago. It's called the Neo Industrial Revolution A declaration for a New American Climate. And it starts by saying we are failing. You probably knew that, but please don't stop reading. And as a way of beginning a document, it's fresh and very different. And I have to say, I went on and I kept having this sense that this is just what we need in this very difficult moment. So welcome back to Outrageous Optimism. I'd love to invite you to introduce this. What is it and why is it needed?

Adam Met: [00:39:20] Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm I'm very happy to be back on the podcast. The last time I was here, it was more in the music capacity. But I really appreciate that introduction because you know, so much of what we need now in the climate movement is not the we are failing, we are depressed, we have no hope. But I felt that in order to get into it, I needed to meet people where they were. So over the last many years. As you all know, I've been working in the climate space. I've been teaching it to master's students. I've been teaching climate policy to master's students at Columbia. I've been working with Congress and with the former white House administration on the Inflation Reduction Act. I've been doing a lot in the policy and movement building space. And at the same time, in the last eight months, and not just because of the Trump administration, but even before that, as I was working on the Harris campaign, it felt like we needed something to jump start the climate movement. We had this era of science and global warming.

Adam Met: [00:40:23] Wally Broecker was the person who essentially coined the term global warming for the science community. He was one of my professors when I was an undergrad. There was also the era of Greta and the Green New Deal, and fighting and getting people angry about the effects of climate change. And I really have felt that over the last year or so. We need a new framing for it. And because I work in the university space, I'm on the board of the Environmental Defense Fund and I travel, as you know, all around the world doing music. I see all of this firsthand. And to have a new approach to how we think about the climate movement, both in terms of the language that we're using and the kinds of actions that we're taking felt necessary. I feel kind of stagnated, and I don't know if this is how you all are feeling, but it feels like we're in this rut where we're business as usual, especially in the United States, when this moment is not calling for business as usual.

Christiana: [00:41:20] Adam. Business as usual. I'm interested that that's the way that you describe it. I would go a little bit further and say we have reached a degree of confrontation and antagonism and polarization on climate change, especially in the United States. That is quite Unprecedented.

Adam Met: [00:41:44] I completely agree with you. And that's why my frustration is that we're using the same kinds of tools that we normally would use in order to push back against the forces that are trying to delegitimize climate change and roll back everything that we've worked for for the last few years. So that's kind of what I mean by business as usual. We're using the same kind of language. We're using the same kind of actions that we're trying to get people to join this movement. And for me, those tools and that language needs a rewriting. So this declaration takes two strategies. One is a whole new lexicon around climate. And that's why we call it the neo industrial revolution. Because for us, and when I was out campaigning on the Harris campaign, nobody cared about 1.5 degrees. Nobody knew what that was. Nobody cared about climate change. Nobody cared about even things like environmental justice, they couldn't relate to it. Obviously extremely important. But these voters didn't understand what it was and couldn't incorporate it into their day to day lives. So why not reframe the entirety of the movement around the things that are impacting people to get them excited about it? And so the first thing that we talk about in this framing for a neo industrial revolution is the lexicon internally in the movement, of course, let's keep talking about environmental justice and climate change and the science of it. But why not externally focus primarily on the economics of it, the jobs, the how we get from place to place, the food that's on our plate, making things cheaper and easier to get things that people don't understand are climate, zoning, housing, immigration, healthcare. All of these issues are things that people can relate to and will vote for, but we can kind of put them out there in a way and have them masquerade, even though we all know that they are climate issues.

Christiana: [00:43:42] So you're talking about not substituting our current terms for the term neo industrial revolution, but rather going down into the components of that that actually make a difference to me, the average US citizen. Do I have a better chance of getting a job? Will it make for better health in my family? Will it make for a better community, a safer community? That's the kind of topic that you are addressing. Is that right?

Adam Met: [00:44:17] That's correct. And I'm framing it as a neo industrial revolution, because the way that at least in the United States, and I'm sure around the world, too, thinks about a revolution, is a complete overhaul of systems and climate change, and addressing climate change requires a complete overhaul of systems. And I'm not talking about, you know, starting over from capitalism. We live in a capitalist society, and we need to be engaging with the partners, such as oil and gas companies, such as companies that have already built this infrastructure in order to help with this transition. But what I'm saying is that each of these sectors and in this declaration for a new industrial revolution, we talk about universities, we talk about banks, we talk about philanthropy, we talk about big green organizations and local activists. We talk about the culture sector. And using this framing of a new lexicon, we make very concrete suggestions of how they can approach a neo industrial revolution. I think that a general population would be excited about a revolution because, as you know, from the last couple of weeks and last couple of months in the United States, people have been hankering for a fight. Yes. This has been something that people have been looking for, and honestly, going out and marching in the street is not cutting it at the moment. That is vitally important. Protesting is a vitally important piece of it, but that kind of fight that people are looking for is not going to be quenched by going out and marching in the street. It needs something stronger.

Christiana: [00:46:00] Well, neither is it with a with a violent confrontation. So you're you're actually proposing something very different?

Adam Met: [00:46:06] I'm proposing something very different. Yes.

Tom: [00:46:09] Adam, I'd love to ask, because what I love about the document is I have felt very frustrated with the language of the climate movement, and I've heard a lot of frustration from so many people that it's alienating people. It's seeming elitist. It's actually counterproductive in many cases. But I love in your document you have flipped it around and you've actually framed it as a proposal rather than a complaint. What kind of feedback have you heard from people who are inside the climate movement and maybe invested in the existing nomenclature and language. Have you felt that they also are kind of ready for this sort of moment?

Adam Met: [00:46:41] Yeah. I'm not going to share any names because a handful of them have requested to remain anonymous, but they are at the C-suite level of the biggest companies you can imagine. They are running banks around the world. They are presidents of universities. And they have all said thank you. We are inside a system that requires this kind of push from the outside in order for us to make this change. And let me give you an example or two of the kinds of things that we're pushing for. And I want to caveat by saying that this declaration is long. If you're looking at a normal piece of paper, it's about 25 pages long, but it's not comprehensive. It's a philosophy with the kind of ideas that we need to be moving towards. So let's look at universities in the US, right? Universities and academia has been stigmatized over the last eight months. However, there is so much research that's being done at universities without an eye towards how can we implement it and use it as quickly as possible. I'm not saying that all research should look that way. We should definitely be giving university and think tank based research the space to explore. However, if we had more things like impact professorships and incentivising professors not based on the amount that they're publishing and what they're publishing, but in how quickly we can actually use it. And in addition, something like Reresearch, which I don't know if you're familiar with, but this idea of reresearch is taking stuff that has been sitting on the shelf for decades that nobody's looking at anymore, and figuring out how we can apply it in the real world.

Adam Met: [00:48:19] I mean, the mRNA vaccine came out of something like this. There is so much that can be implemented. So having universities create incentives for implementation because we need to do that immediately in the climate space. Same thing, honestly, in philanthropy. There are so many ways that philanthropy can create incentives in the nonprofit space for them to be doing the kinds of research and implementation that can then become investable. It creates a cycle where you have all of these different stakeholders working on the climate movement, and they all have the same goals, because so much of what we see right now in the climate movement is this competition. And I'm sure both of you see this when you go to conferences, everyone is running towards the same goals on parallel paths, not talking to each other. And if there was far more collaboration and cross-sector collaboration, I feel like we would be a lot farther. I'm so tired of every media outlet saying, Adam, come on and give us the three things that we can do in our day to day lives to fix climate change, that the kinds of changing the straws that we're using and pledging to go vegan one meal a week. I'm so tired of that. Individual action.

Christiana: [00:49:34] Ain't gonna cut it, ain't.

Christiana: [00:49:36] Gonna cut it, never.

Adam Met: [00:49:38] Gonna cut it.

Tom: [00:49:38] And let's talk about that because this is a special episode of the podcast for this Be Hope takeover that we're doing on the podcast, and it's brilliant that you're on. This is perfect for it. And I just want to ask about that because people can very, very often feel pretty disempowered when it comes to climate. The challenge is so big, our agency feels so small, and that's a big part of this document. You talk about shifting from individual to structural solutions, and I've seen you talk about that on stage as well, that we need to address the structural changes rather than feeling disempowered and individual. So how does someone listening to this podcast shift their mindset in that regard?

Adam Met: [00:50:11] Absolutely. So I'll talk about the US first. In the US, your power as a voter is thousands of times stronger at the local level than it is at the presidential. I'm not saying you shouldn't vote at the presidential level. You absolutely need to vote at the presidential level.

Christiana: [00:50:29] Please vote.

Adam Met: [00:50:30] Please everybody, please vote. But if there's one thing I'm gonna ask you to do, it's to go look up when your next local election is because those city council members, they could win or lose by just a handful of votes. And if you think about it for a second, they're the people that decide where petrochemical plants are built, what zoning looks like, what public transportation looks like in individual cities, even things like farming policy and what's allowed and what's not allowed. So many decisions about your day to day life are made for you at that local level. There was a race in Texas about a year ago where this young woman won by 12 votes, and that made the difference between having a majority that would support climate action and a majority that would not support climate action. 12 votes literally. So going out and literally googling right now on your phone saying, when is my next local election? And going out to vote in a local election is the number one most important thing you could do right now. Obviously, there are so many more bigger things you can do to get engaged. That won't take up a lot of time, but that's the primary thing.

Christiana: [00:51:38] So it seems to me, Adam, that you're proposing two things at the same time. One is you're not saying as individuals you should be irresponsible. You're saying obviously as individuals, responsibility, for sure, but also expand the boundary of your collaboration, of your action so that you begin to unleash collective power as opposed to only individual. And obviously one is nested in the other, but expand the boundary to do collective power. So that's an expansion. And the other thing you're saying is stop obsessing about who the top, top politician authority is, and bring back the boundary of your focus to something that is local to your very community. So it's interesting because you're asking us to expand our boundary with who we work with, but contract our boundary of impact. Is that an unfair analysis of what you're saying?

Adam Met: [00:52:45] That's a perfectly fair analysis, and I'll add one more piece to it.

Christiana: [00:52:49] Yay!

Adam Met: [00:52:50] I think that community building in order to do both of these things is vital. So in the culture sector of this declaration, we look at ways in which people who gather together already can then make use of them for concrete action. And we did this on our tour. And when both of you came to our tour in Seattle, you saw this.

Christiana: [00:53:10] Which was.

Christiana: [00:53:11] So fun.

Adam Met: [00:53:13] Thank you. There was opportunities for fans to engage in civic and political action on site. They were able to. Yes, register to vote. But also sign petitions to get local policies passed. We even had phone banking on site to get their representatives to vote a certain way on an issue. And so we have this broad proposal to reinvigorate civic action around places where people already gather in person, in music spaces, in sports spaces, in fairs, even in places like airports. Millions of people a year gather together, and we're seeing more of that. Last year, Ticketmaster sold 250 million tickets in the United States. Those are all people that are getting together in person over this kind of thing that I talk about a lot, which is collective effervescence, that energy. When you are in a group all focused on something, it's a sociological concept. But if we can take that collective effervescence and use it to move people towards action, that's where the real results are going to happen.

Christiana: [00:54:15] Is that your fan based climate movement?

Adam Met: [00:54:17] That is a fan based climate movement. So, as you know, I put out a book earlier this year called amplify, and it's all about how to build a fan based movement. What are all the strategies that the music industry is so freaking good at building fan bases? How do we take those strategies and use them to build more effective movements? And for those of you listening, Christiana gives an incredible interview in the book about something called a Cassandra. But I'm not going to I'm not going to ruin it for you. So you have to.

Christiana: [00:54:48] Go read the book, get the.

Tom: [00:54:50] Book. It's great. Adam, so great to see you. Thank you for joining us. This is an incredible contribution you've made with this document. I think it's absolutely needed really timely, very much based on the theme of where we are at the moment, the reset and the hope we need in this difficult moment. So thank you for that. Thank you for everything you do. Look forward to seeing you next week in New York. And thanks for being back on.

Christiana: [00:55:09] Hold on. I would say it's very revolutionary.

Tom: [00:55:13] There you go.

Christiana: [00:55:16] At the right moment. Thanks so much, Adam.

Adam Met: [00:55:18] Thank you.

Christiana: [00:55:20] I'm just constantly in deeper gratitude to Adam because, honestly, he could just stay on stage. He is such an incredible musician, and he and his two brothers are so successful. And he could just do that. And the fact that he has a PhD in sustainability, the fact that he teaches at Columbia, he teaches at the master's level on climate change. He writes these books. He's an advocate. He's he's an activist. I mean, God bless him. God bless him. He is not going to stop, no matter what the political or geopolitical situation is. And we need more people like that. That is exactly the energy that we need at this time.

Paul : [00:56:11] Yeah. Just throw in this complimentary, you know, I've struggled with academia, shall we say, in various different ways, shapes and forms. But I think there's a rigor to the thinking, which is really helpful. You know, we we've got all these facts and they come at us in just such strange ways. The one that's been freaking me out recently is like, you know, AI is going to take half our jobs or AI is going to liberate half hour weeks. You know, we think everything is is like terrible or marvelous. And we probably need people with that structured thinking to help us see, you know, maybe we know what to do and we can do it.

Tom: [00:56:42] Yeah. I mean, I think we have talked a lot in this episode about how the world has changed in the course of last year, and it really makes me reflect on that. Coming back to New York, you know, 12 months ago, we were there. It was before the election. It was before many of the changes that have really gripped our world and this massive shift towards populism that we saw some of the signs of, but we didn't know how far it would go with Trump coming back. And, you know, we've talked a bit now about the necessity of state and local leadership. And I think what Adam is talking about and what this remarkable document that he's pulled together from so many people points to, is that the climate movement, and those of us who are trying to respond to this challenge need to be responsive to the times, right? The times have changed. It's not clear that we're winning at the moment. In fact, it's pretty clear that a lot's not going that well. It's not that relevant for day to day people. We're not always winning the politics. And before we go too far down that road, we need to be humble and adaptive enough to say something different is needed from us now. And how do we respond to that before we're forced to change? Because we can be proactive and come back into alignment with our mission and what we want to achieve.

Christiana: [00:57:47] And he's also saying, how do we humanize this, right? I mean, yes, all the science is there and firmly in place. Yes, all the projections, the data. Et cetera. Et cetera. But he's saying, how do we humanize it? How do we put a human face? How do we close the gap between what is happening and what ought to happen? And me, in my own individual life? And how do I build the bridge from my own individual life to my community, my group, my collective capacity.

Tom: [00:58:20] Sophia.

Sophia Li: [00:58:21] I think one of the best things that Adam is giving to the world is basically showing that climate is evolution. The climate movement is a movement. It's a it's a breathing entity. It evolves as humanity evolves. It evolves as our administrations evolves. And we're not in the same place as we were in 2015 with the Paris climate agreement, or even 2018 with the Green New Deal and the Greta. Fridays for Future Movement. We are in a completely different space now, and it's kind of hard for the average person to grasp how fast this movement with the pace is. So I think Adam, and this document helps verbalize and pinpoint where we are in 2025 and where we're heading, and how the climate movement is not a stagnant piece.

Tom: [00:59:06] Absolutely. Now we're coming towards the end of our time in this episode, unfortunately. But before we do, we want to just go a little further into the role that everyone can play, not just in politics and law, but communities and culture. And we have a voice note here from Corey Pudhorodsky, a climate advocate from Austin, Texas. Let's have a listen.

Corey Pudhorodsky: [00:59:23] I just finished your mistruths and misinformation episode, and I wanted to say thank you. You named exactly what so many of us are feeling, the gaslighting and coordinated noise that we currently are facing, and how we need to counter it with integrity and human centered facts. I'm turning 50, and I decided to celebrate by doing something useful and redirect the attention to something where I felt like I could make an impact. I'm calling it 50 over 50, and I'm going to be sharing 50 climate facts over 50 continuous hours on the Texas State Capitol grounds and surrounding areas in public. These are going to be simple facts that will help people understand the climate crisis and the solutions that we have to solve them. And I'm hoping that with this data, it'll help connect people with the values that we all care about and make a difference. I really appreciate the way that you encouraged us to think about making real progress, and how small choices can have a ripple effect. Thanks for the clarity and courage that you always give us. I'll be keeping it all in mind here on September 4th, and we're here with you.

Tom: [01:00:34] Remarkable. He's now completed his birthday challenge, and we'll put links to this in some of the other stories we mentioned in the show. Notes. Anything that any of you. Sophia is our special guest. Paul and Christiana would like to share before we get to the end of this episode.

Sophia Li: [01:00:47] I just I love people like Corey. I mean, I think all roads lead to climate, and whether you know it or not, everyone is going to be an advocate in some sense, because climate touches everyone and everything. And I just love people like Corey taking action in their own hands. When you take action in your hands, you feel more empowered in the movement and that's what gives you hope. Hope is a tangible thing that you can choose to do. Like we were talking about at the beginning and happy 50th to Corey. I think that's such a great way to celebrate your 50th.

All Hosts: [01:01:16] Absolutely. Happy birthday. Happy birthday Corey.

Christiana: [01:01:20] I'm just really still in Corey's story. And my question is to you, Corey. Was it a happy birthday for you? What was your experience of 50 for 50? Earth 50 climate truths over 50 continuous hours on this Texas State Capitol grounds. How was that for you? What did people around you say when you finally went home? How were you feeling and how are you feeling now? We would love to hear from you.

Tom: [01:01:58] So as we draw to a close, this podcast episode, of course, has been about be hope. It's been about how do we find hope in these really challenging moments when it's so easy to feel like the world is going in a different direction. Just just before we close, I'd love to ask each of you to share with the listeners what what is hope to you and how do you find it on a consistent basis, even when everything doesn't look like it's going so well?

Christiana: [01:02:21] You know, I've been having an ongoing conversation for years with so many colleagues about whether it is hope that guides us or optimism, and everyone has chosen one or the other word, everyone who is in this space. I'm not particularly attached to either one, as long as we agree on what we're talking about. And the best definition that I have heard about Hope is that it is a verb with its sleeves rolled up. And I love that definition, because it's not about sitting on the couch and just hoping or praying for something is going to occur. No, it's a verb. It means it needs your action with your sleeves rolled up. Because you can't give up just because there's a barrier in front of you. So I just totally love that definition.

Tom: [01:03:18] Love that.

Paul : [01:03:19] Paul, I'm going to go back to this word I used at the start, confidence. And, uh, a line from a film about the Cuban Missile Crisis, when it was all becoming horribly apparent, the scriptwriter gave this line to Kennedy, who said, we're going to do what we need to do to get this to turn out right. And the line was delivered with enormous confidence and also the clarity of necessity. And all of that together is is my my cozy home place.

Tom: [01:03:49] Now, I want to give the last word to Sophia. So I'm going to just make my contribution now. Then hand over to her, and I'm going to go back to our good friend and former guest on this podcast, Rebecca Solnit. And listeners may be familiar with this quote, which I love. And I would go back to this one as you do on yours, Christiana. Where she said hope is not a lottery ticket, that you can sit on the sofa and clutch. Feeling lucky? It is an axe you break down doors with in an emergency. Hope should shove you out the door because it will take everything you have to steer the future away from endless war and the annihilation of Earth's treasures. To hope is to give yourself to the future. And that commitment to the future is what makes the present inhabitable.

Christiana: [01:04:29] The amazing Rebecca Solnit.

Tom: [01:04:31] Sophia, tell us about Hope for you.

Sophia Li: [01:04:33] Well, the number one thing giving me hope right now. I should have mentioned this at the beginning, but is that I just had a baby two months ago.

Christiana: [01:04:41] And oh. So congratulations. Congratulations.

Sophia Li: [01:04:45] Thank you so much.

Christiana: [01:04:46] That's what it's all about. Life.

Paul: [01:04:47] Life?

Sophia Li: [01:04:48] Well, I was just thinking, because a lot of people ask me like, oh, you're going to like, you're so deep in the climate space, you're going to have a child when there's all these multiple crises. Crises. And I was like, actually, I think one of the most punk things we could do right now in this day and age is to choose the future of humanity and to choose to believe that the future of humanity will survive.

Christiana: [01:05:13] Yes.

Sophia Li: [01:05:13] So especially with all the post-apocalyptic AI will take over the world. And it's like, no, I choose humanity. I think punk, being punk and having hope is kind of interchangeable. And that's that's where I landed with this conversation.

Tom: [01:05:30] So this has been a special Be Hope episode of Outrage and Optimism, all these other amazing podcasts that are doing the same. Sophia, it's been wonderful to have you. Thanks for joining us as a special guest co-host. Thank you. Listen to the podcast. It's brilliant. And we will be back on the ground next week in New York with a live show and various other snippets. We'll be reporting from there. So we'll see you then. Thanks for joining us. See you next week.

Christiana: [01:05:53] Bye.

Sophia Li: [01:05:53] Thank you everyone.

Christiana: [01:05:54] Bye.