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300: Hope for the High Seas?: Sylvia Earle and Oceans on the World Stage

This week we speak to legendary marine biologist Dr Sylvia Earle, plus updates from the UN Oceans Conference in Nice

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About this episode

World leaders, scientists and ocean advocates are gathering in Nice for the 3rd UN Ocean Conference (UNOC) and hopes are high that progress can be made on some of the many pressing issues facing our seas - from acidification to pollution, and from biodiversity loss to deep sea mining. 

Reporting from the summit, Christiana Figueres and Tom Rivett-Carnac ask: can this moment become a true turning point for ocean governance? Central to the agenda is the High Seas Treaty: a long-awaited international agreement designed to protect marine life in the 64% of the ocean that lies beyond national borders. But with more ratifications needed to get it across the line, can its future be secured while the world’s eyes are on Nice?

Later, Christiana is joined by legendary oceanographer and explorer Dr. Sylvia Earle. Drawing on a lifetime of experience beneath the waves, she shares stories, warnings, and a passionate case for protecting the blue lungs of the planet.

This episode features underwater and ocean recordings taken by sound artist and documentarist Louise Romain.


Learn more 

⚓ Get the latest news on UNOC from the official website

🌊 Learn more about the High Seas Treaty and track its progress towards 60 ratifications

🐠 Discover Sylvia Earle’s ocean advocacy initiative Mission Blue


🎤 Leave us your voice notes and questions for upcoming episodes on SpeakPipe

Follow us on social media for behind the scenes moments and to watch our videos:

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Producer: Ben Weaver-Hincks

Video Producer: Caitlin Hanrahan

Exec Producer: Ellie Clifford

Commissioning Editor: Sarah Thomas 


This is a Persephonica production for Global Optimism and is part of the Acast Creator Network.

Full Transcript

[00:00:00] Paul: Christiana Tom, our dear listeners, I'm so sorry not to be with you at the unit conference today. I'm Paul Dickinson and I'm here with Ben and Caitlyn from Persephonica because Tom and Christiana haven't got sufficient bandwidth to be live with us now. So I'm here to welcome you all to our 300th episode whilst Tom and Christiana somewhere in the south of France, record today's episode without us.
Over to them. Bye for now. 

[00:00:29] Tom: Hello and welcome to Outrage and Optimism. I'm Tom Rivett-Carnac[00:00:30] Christiana: I'm Christiana Figueres and there is no Paul.

[00:00:34] Tom: And to make up for our devastating disappointment, we are sitting on rather beautiful balcony in knees with the sun rising over. Yeah, but don't tell Paul..

[00:00:41] Christiana: because he'll be very jealous.

[00:00:42] Tom: Don't tell Paul this is just his kind of thing actually. Nice restaurants along the sea front. So actually anyway, we may be getting distracted, right? We are here in Nice at the UN Oceans Conference. And we are gonna be bringing you updates on what is happening in the intergovernmental conversations and between other non-state actors to get us back on track with ocean conservation.
Thanks for being here.

[00:01:06] Christiana: Maybe we should do that again. No, that's fine. I just thought it's quite a big promise that you made there.

[00:01:16] Tom: That is quite a big promise. Yeah, and listeners can judge. That's high ambition. Listeners 

[00:01:20] Christiana: can, this is not the High Ambition Coalition. This is the High ambition, Tom. 

[00:01:23] Tom: This is the High Ambition intro in, in which I have enveloped you, so you are also now responsible for delivering the intro. It's not just me.
Okay, Christiana. So, um, just you and me. And it's not a terrible context, a recorded podcast is it? 

[00:01:42] Christiana: It's not a terrible context, but hold on. 

[00:01:44] Tom: Okay. 

[00:01:44] Christiana: We're celebrating. 300 episodes. 

[00:01:47] Tom: 300 episodes, all right. That means 

[00:01:49] Christiana: 100 each of us.

[00:01:52] Tom: A hundred just hours of us. Do you think that's how we should have done that? Well, I suppose that's what it would've been in total. I think so, yeah. Yeah. 

[00:01:59] Christiana: I am very  glad that it wasn't a hundred hours of me, because would've been a nightmare. 

[00:02:04] Tom: Not at all now, but we are sitting on a balcony in nice, overlooking an absolutely gorgeous view.We'll take a selfie in a minute and put on the socials. The ocean is here. We are here for a few days for the UN Oceans Conference. This is a critical event. It's the third ever un oceans conference being held here and expectations are high for some significant outcomes to bring the world together on shared commitments to do something about our poor oceans.
Christiana, I wondered if we should start by telling the story of the blue marble. Oh, 

[00:02:35] Christiana: the blue marble. Blue marble. I just told that story because I came. Do you still have it? I do, of course I do. Okay. I told the story because I just came from the ORCA meeting, which is the Ocean Resilience and Climate Action Alliance, and it is quite a story.

So I believe that I was in the secretary maybe for two or three years  and. Someone, and I wish I remember who I was because I would deeply thank them. Someone came and said, put your hand out. And I put my hand out and this person deposited a beautiful blue marble into my hand and I was so moved. Just I thought, I thought, thank you for this beautiful gift.

This makes me think of when I was a child and I played marbles, and the person said, Christian, that's not a gift. It's an admonishment. Oh. Wow. And I, exactly. That was my reaction, right? I went like, oh, oh my Lord. And the person said to me, you've been in the secretariat for, I don't know, two or three years, and you've never spoken about oceans.
So this marble is for you to remember. That oceans are part of addressing the climate. 

[00:03:49] Tom: Such 

[00:03:49] Christiana: what a lesson. 

[00:03:51] Tom: What a lesson, and what a lesson. And I have to say, I mean, my experience of that a couple of years later when I joined you is that it was this like sort of like random [00:04:00] thing that would occasionally happen.
You'd be rummaging your bag for your phone and suddenly the marble would come out and you'd hold it for a second and you go. The oceans I knows. So effective. It's so effective. But it would only come out like now and again, you never do '

[00:04:11] Christiana: cause it because it's at the bottom of my computer case. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's so effective. 

[00:04:15] Tom: It was so effective and it did bring our minds to the oceans on a regular basis. It it did. So if you are listening, whoever gave Christiana that marble together with the admonishment, please 

[00:04:23] Christiana: let us know. 

[00:04:24] Tom: Let us know. It worked. And it happened. Yeah, it worked very well. 

[00:04:27] Christiana: Absolutely. 

[00:04:27] Tom: Now let's turn to the task at hand because we are at the UN Oceans Conference here in Nice. As I said earlier, this is the third UN Oceans Conference, the first in 2017 in New York, the second in 2022 in Lisbon.

And the expectation, these are not negotiations, so it's not like the cop where there's countries negotiating to come to a shared outcome.
It's an opportunity for countries and other actors to come together and make shared commitments. So it's a different kind of thing to a cop. This one is being co-hosted by France and. Costa 

[00:04:57] Christiana: Rica, Costa 

[00:04:59] Tom: Rica, and the goal here is to ratify some key treaties and unlock funding and try to build momentum ahead of Cop 30 in Brazil.
So Christiana, why is this important and what's in your mind as you arrive here in Nice? 

[00:05:11] Christiana: Well, with blue marble in mind, the blue marble in my. I mean, it, it really, Sylvia Earl, who we have interviewed and will be on this episode, puts it so clearly, no oceans, no life. Mm. That's it. Mm. I mean it, and it is, it is a simple and profound statement.

And we should remember first of all, that all life came from the oceans. Mm. All of us, all of us think that we're humans walking on land. No, no, no, no, no. We actually crawled out of the oceans. Okay. Okay. Yeah. That's to, to remind us. There. Plus, in addition to the evolutionary perspective here, the fact is that oceans have absorbed 90% of the excess heat caused by greenhouse gases since 1970s, which means that it has become 30% more acidic and.

The ocean's capacity to absorb oxygen has actually gone down because it is getting to a saturation point. So we are now seeing something that oceanographers call dead zones, which is where the ocean is simply. No longer supporting life. 

[00:06:23] Tom: It's awful. And, and to just make sure I understand that, 'cause you said 90% of the excess heat, so what you're saying is as the greenhouse effect is increased as a result of pollution, we are trapping more and more heat in the biosphere.
And rather than terrestrial ecosystems and humans experiencing that heat, most of it is absorbed by a gradual warming of the oceans that has, they're 

[00:06:40] Christiana: a buffer. They've been, they're a buffer. They've been acting as a buffer. Yeah. And the question is. Can they buffer us forever? No. 

[00:06:46] Tom: Right, right. 

[00:06:47] Christiana: They're getting to the point where they can no longer, and then of course, to turn to fish stocks.
Approximately one third of global fish stocks are overfished while nearly 90% are fully [00:07:00] exploited. I mean, it is just awful. The extraction, so, so let's say end plastic pollution, right? Yeah. So we are polluting with plastic. We're overfishing and we're expecting the ocean to. Be our nanny on global warming and help us through this.

[00:07:17] Tom: Right? So it feels so good actually to begin to pivot and focus on how can we put in place policies and measures to actually help the oceans. I mean, one thing that I would take us to there is much like with fossil fuels, where we're trying to pivot away from this damaging thing that's causing so much harm to us.

But then if you look under the hood, what you realize is actually. Governments are still massively subsidizing fossil fuels. The same with the fishing industry that you just referenced there, right? I mean, we're not saying that fishing should stop completely, but we know the devastating impact. Right now, there are $35 billion of subsidies every year to fisheries, and 22 billion of that is classified as harmful supporting practices that promote and support overfishing.

So we are actually paying for the destruction. The governments are subsidizing destruction of the ocean and making this problem worse. 

[00:08:04] Christiana: As you say, it's a good parallel to fossil fuels, right? We're doing it doubly, 

[00:08:08] Tom: yeah, 

[00:08:08] Christiana: we're subsidizing our own demise, 

[00:08:10] Tom: which makes it harder and harder to shift to alternatives 'cause they look more expensive because of the massive subsidy that to most people is invisible.
So what are you hoping that we will, I mean, you know, it's Monday, there was the finance forum that Prince William spoke at and many heads of state were at over the weekend. The conference will run for the next few days. What, what do we think might come out of this? What are we hoping for? 

[00:08:30] Christiana: Well, one big political push of course, is going to be for more countries to ratify the High Seas Treaty, and listeners will hopefully know by now because we've said it quite a few times, that the High Seas, international waters are not covered by the Climate Convention because they're international waters.

They're not under anybody. Individual and, and but more than half the planet, right? It's more than half the planet. Only 1% of the oceans are 1.2% of [00:09:00] the ocean area is protected. That's it. And the rest is the wild west. And so one thing that there's going to be a big political push for here is to ratify the highs.

CS treaty because it has been adopted, but it has not been ratified to the point where it could go into force. We have 32 countries that have ratified leaving 28 more that need to ratify, which means to go from adopting or signing to ratification IE parliamentary process in order for it to go into effect 116 have actually signed it.
But it needs 60 ratifications. Ah-ha. 

[00:09:43] Tom: Okay. So, 

[00:09:43] Christiana: so that's why it's really important to push for that last legal steps, right? Right. And so this is very similar to the Paris agreement. Countries first adopt, then they sign and then they ratify. So it's three legal steps. So we're now waiting for the last step of ratification, and until we get the 60 countries, it doesn't actually become.
Binding international law, which is what we want. 

[00:10:10] Tom: Come on, countries. This is appalling, isn't it? They haven't ratified. I mean, everyone should step up and make this happen this next couple of days. They've got any excuse not to do that. 

[00:10:16] Christiana: Well, several countries that are interesting that have signed and not are ratified.
Mr. Tom, the uk. 

[00:10:24] Tom: I mean, I Could you personally 

[00:10:25] Christiana: assume responsibility for that one then the us I, I'll share it with Paul. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Then the US of no surprise that, of course sign, but not gratified, China, India, Brazil, Indonesia, South Africa, Japan, all of these countries that really have a huge impact on our use of the 

[00:10:43] Tom: oceans.
Are they not ratifying because it's a bit cynical, they sort of sign for a role in the international stage? Or is it to do with complex legislation, procedures they need to get like approvals from Senates and Houses of Representatives. Yeah. Yeah. They need to do that. 

[00:10:56] Christiana: And of course that means getting, you know, a majority of political parties in Parliament or Congress to, to rat.
It's a much more difficult step than the unilateral executive power Yes. Of any country adopting and signing. Yeah. Which is just. The executive power, but then when it has to go over to the legislative power, whatever it is in each country, then it, it, it does get more complicated. Yeah. 

[00:11:20] Tom: Most famous example that I can think of, of course, being Kyoto, where the US never ratified.

[00:11:24] Christiana: Exactly. 

[00:11:25] Tom: Right. Okay. Yeah. So that can happen. Okay. Okay. So that's important. What about sort of other kinds of commitments? I mean, the high sea treaties gonna be important. Are we expecting to see like. Countries and other players come together and make protected area commitments and, 

[00:11:39] Christiana: well, these are called MPAs and we know that we are not gonna use acronyms.
So marine protected areas, very nice. Okay. 

[00:11:47] Sylvia: Yeah. 

[00:11:48] Christiana: Um, but you know, this is the thing. There's only 1.2 of the surface of the ocean that is under. Marine protection. So that is why it is really important that [00:12:00] we expand the protection of areas to the hotspots, the biodiversity, the ocean biodiversity hotspots before we lose.
And diversity migratory roots. Yeah. 

[00:12:11] Tom: Yeah. 

[00:12:11] Christiana: And the migratory roots. Yeah. E even in more important. And then, and then as though that were not complicated enough, the fact is that if we get the. High Seas Treaty to be legally binding legislation. The good news is it enables and facilitates the creation of more and more marine protected areas, but marine protected areas do not disqualify deep sea mining.

[00:12:44] Tom: Aha. Okay. That's interesting. You can haves a 

[00:12:46] Christiana: loophole in there. Okay. Right, because it was written have for fisheries, and it was written for fisheries uhhuh. So you could have, I mean, this is the irony. You could have a marine protected area and deep sea mining right in the heart of it. That is crazy. Yeah, that is completely crazy.

So that's why one of the pushes that are coming here is actually to adopt a precautionary approach to deep sea mining, which is very similar to what countries adopted the precautionary approach in the Arctic under the central Arctic. Fisheries agreement, there's a pre precautionary approach that doesn't allow them to go into deep sea mining until we can understand what the consequences are.  So drawing from that international treaty, because there's a moratorium there on, in the central Arctic, there's a moratorium until 2027. So now the question is, can the principle be adopted now for the high seas? 

[00:13:42] Tom: I see. Okay. But I begin now to get a picture of the geopolitics behind this, right? Because of course, we're in a moment where Trump is introducing tariffs. China is holding onto its rare earths. We're getting more of a scramble for resources that seem more scarce. The treaty isn't necessarily ratified. There's gonna be a lot going on behind the scenes of national self interest. Absolutely. And how can we get the minerals that are gonna support economic growth?

So it seems to be about the oceans, but actually this is about geopolitics. It's about countries trying to pursue their own self-interest that may get in the way of, let's call it the scramble for extraction, the for extraction on it goes. Okay.

Okay, so I think now we should turn to the interview Christiana, that you had with your good friend, Sylvia Earl. Would you like to introduce who Sylvia is?

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[00:14:31] Christiana: So Sylvia Earl, I. I think by now a household name, but just in case she's a marine biologist, oceanographer explorer, author, lecturer, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

She was also the first female chief scientist of Noah. Collectively, I. All the time that she has been underwater is the equivalent of an entire year, the entire year, uh, during her lifetime. But for one research project, she [00:15:00] lived underwater for 14 days in a very. Unique research submarine. 

[00:15:09] Tom: I mean, seriously.

How wonder does that? I don't know. It's amazing. Yeah. Well, she was 

[00:15:12] Christiana: thrilled. 

[00:15:13] Tom: Right? Okay. It's a amazing conversation. So let's go to your discussion with Sylvia Ell.

[00:15:23] Christiana: Sylvia, thank you so, so much for joining us here A few days before Unuc starts, we knew you were gonna be incredibly busy. So we wanted to take a little of your time before the Oceans Conference, and I cannot believe that we have not had you on the podcast before. We've been wanting to get you for such a long time, and here we are finally.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Really sweet of you. I can't 

[00:15:49] Sylvia: believe that we haven't. Been diving together, but that's on my bucket list. 

[00:15:54] Christiana: Well, you see, the reason why I wouldn't wanna dive with you is because you would go like a hundred meters [00:16:00] deeper than I and put me totally to shame. I am often asked what got me into climate, and I would like to ask you the same question.

If we go way back into the first years of your passion for ocean, what kindled that passion for the oceans? 

[00:16:21] Sylvia: Well, the ocean got my attention when I was three years old. Got knocked over by a wave, but it's life in the ocean. That has held my attention all these years. Knowing that the water is beautiful, it's wonderful, it's inspirational to look out over a.

Vast wild ocean, but it's even better to go in the ocean. In the 

[00:16:46] Christiana: ocean, 

[00:16:47] Sylvia: yeah. Meet the creatures who lived there. It's like diving into the history of life on earth. Even. Even just holding your breaths and going beneath the surface, but even more thrilling [00:17:00] to be able to. Get in a little submarine and go down to the edge of light, the twilight zone, and then to go even deeper where it's dark all of the time, still filled with beautiful things.

[00:17:13] Christiana: And we're still discovering so many of those species that are down there. 

[00:17:17] Sylvia: The deeper we go, the less we know, but the more new discoveries. Mm. So we're just at the edge of the greatest era of exploration. Ever. I mean, when I was a child and all humans who lived in most of our history, we have not had access to the sea beneath the surface.

But now we do. Now we do. And I love the way divers around the world, just using scuba, are coming back with the most remarkable insights about the importance of the ocean for things like generating oxygen, capturing carbon, but getting to know. Individual creatures who live there, not just, oh, [00:18:00] there's a fish, but there's that fish.

I've seen that fish before. He lives right there, 

[00:18:05] Christiana: Sylvia, which, yeah. Which animal creature has been the most astonishing to you that you have personally seen? Because I know you get go very, very deep in these submarines, so which one has just totally whacked you over? Can you choose one or are there too many?

[00:18:24] Sylvia: Well, I'm surprised and delighted every time I go beneath the surface and I have a special affection for cephalopods, octopuses, and squids. I. I have a particular affection for grouper because they're so curious. Mm. Probably around like curious children. Speaking of children, I suppose my favorite sea creatures or my grandchildren, because they like you and every other living thing, were all dependent.

We're all sea creatures. No ocean, no us. Yep. And to see [00:19:00] them awaken to what's out there, down there has been one of the great. Joys of my life. 

[00:19:06] Christiana: So you have been able to pass that DNA to the future generations already. 

[00:19:12] Sylvia: It's in the DNA of all kids everywhere. All of us, yes. That 

[00:19:15] Christiana: is true. Tell me, you have been watching and studying and researching and loving the oceans for so many decades.

What are the changes that you have seen? Here's the thing, 

[00:19:29] Sylvia: it's one ocean. What happens to any place, like the land itself, if there are fires in the Amazon or a storm or an earthquake in New Zealand, the whole planet is connected and sooner or later the influence is felt like when you stub your toe, your whole body feels the effects.

The deep sea is warming. It just takes a little longer because everything does connect and it, it's part of the [00:20:00] concern that the ocean has absorbed much of the carbon dioxide that has been added to the atmosphere beyond the natural levels added because of US burning fossil fuel. And also when we clear cut a forest or clear cut fish outta the ocean or squid, we destroy the basic carbon capturing mechanisms and the carbon that we, it goes back into the atmosphere.

It's like burning trees. Where does the CO2 go up into the atmosphere and the forest that once was capturing carbon or the fish and squid that were holding the carbon in the ocean no longer are there to do what they've been doing. Light it's a living planet. I think that's the key that some of the climate scientists are really acknowledging now.

But originally, when. The concerns about human impacts on the changing climate were [00:21:00] first acknowledged. It was the atmospheric scientists who were measuring CO2, who were mm-hmm. Looking at the impacts in the atmosphere. But now even the organization where I served as the chief scientist, Noah. The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration in the us.

It actually was formed by a combination of oceanic and atmospheric scientists in 1970 deliberately to try to get these experts from these two disciplines to get together and really share what each knew, so that together. They could see how everything is joined, and especially to acknowledge that the ocean really drives climate.

No ocean. Mm-hmm. No life, but no ocean, 

[00:21:49] Christiana: no livable planet. 

[00:21:51] Sylvia: No. It would be like all those other places in the universe that don't have, yeah. An ocean or life or both. [00:22:00] 

[00:22:00] Christiana: Sylvia, you know, one, one of my deepest frustrations in life is that there is so little. Attention paid to science. People who are in policy, people who are taking investment decisions, people who are drafting regulation.

Somehow they are blind and deaf to the hard facts of science. Scientists have been. Screaming from the rooftops about the dangers that we're encountering, and yet it seems that policy makers and those making decisions about investment and economy are completely deaf to it. Do you share that frustration or do you see a path toward making science much more of a factor of change?

[00:22:54] Sylvia: The answer is yes to both. Okay. I do see a path because [00:23:00] nature, the ocean, all of it. The evidence is there for anyone to see. Not just nerdy scientists, but I. Farmers, people who live in cities, people who are seeing changes, everyone that it is getting increasingly warm, increasingly fast. We are on a trek to a not very good place for our species.

Life will go on one way or the other. I mean, think about times in the past when, when we weren't here, that we were not here. We live in this era that. Geologists call the Holocene when civilization has really prospered. You could call it the sweet spot in time. Mm-hmm. About 11,000 years ago when things miraculously came together with a kind of stability that has favored us.

Mm-hmm. Oxygen in the atmosphere, range of temperature. Just so many things. [00:24:00] Stability long enough for us to really take advantage of growing things, agriculture. Mm-hmm. Which made, has made possible our population to grow from a few million to by 1500. There were half a billion of us by 1800 of. A billion.

When I came along, there were 2 billion. Now there are 8 billion. This looks like, woo-hoo. We humans are on a path to success, prosperity, but for the first time, we are able to see the consequences. How has our prosperity been possible? One species dominating the planet and the cost, 

[00:24:41] Christiana: the arrogance of it.

Sylvia, the arrogance of it. 

[00:24:44] Sylvia: Yeah, not being able to see that we need nature. We need, mm-hmm. The forest. We need an intact ocean. We almost killed the very last wheel. Good news is when we stopped in 1986 from the commercial [00:25:00] extraction killing of wheels globally, they came back. 86 wasn't that long ago, but it has made a difference.

They're not back to where they were a thousand years ago, but they're more than when I was a child. Hmm. When we take action, we can take action that can make a difference. Protected areas can see when you stop the killing and really understand the value, the greater value of a living fish, a living whale, a living coral reef versus a dead one.

It's, it's exactly beginning to sink in. The economists are looking at whales, not the way I do. Well, in some ways, yes, but the carbon value. In whales, living whales has been given a value of on the order of a trillion dollars. That's even with the depressed number of whales that now exist. Imagine when, when their numbers were at their state before [00:26:00] humans began to to kill them.

For products you can sell even today. He currently sold squid and fish and krill from Antarctica, but the living value of krill to us for carbon, I. And for other values. I sat on the International Wailing Commission for four years and I was just blown away by the comments by those who want the whales dead for products measured against just that narrow segment.

  1. Of a human population that was discovering what joy there is in watching whales. It's become a business like birdwatching. 

[00:26:42] Christiana: Absolutely. Who knew? You know Sylvia? I live directly on the Pacific in Costa Rica, right on the beach, and a couple of. Months ago, we were having lunch outside and I spotted a humpback breaching, and then I thought, I spotted [00:27:00] a little one breaching right behind her.

And so my daughter and son-in-law jumped on their boards and paddled out and were so close to this whale who was teaching. She had just calfed. She was teaching her calf breaching. Okay. And when my son-in-law got there, the whale was still teaching the breaching. And then when my daughter arrived a few minutes later and my daughter is breastfeeding her new child, I.

This female whale stopped breaching and started breastfeeding her cuff. Wow. Now, I mean, can you imagine? I even, when I think about it now, I get goosebumps because there is a communication here, interspecies communication. For sure. Yes. And we're also completely ignorant 

[00:27:57] Sylvia: about that. Think about the change [00:28:00] in our attitude about our fellow primates because.

One person, Jane Goodall, spent years getting to know one species, chimpanzees. 

[00:28:09] Christiana: Exactly, exactly. 

[00:28:11] Sylvia: Against the advice of some of her sober sided senior scientists. That you can't give them names. You can't think of them as having personality. I mean, why not? They do. They do. They, they exude personality. Some people have personality, you know?

[00:28:29] Christiana: Absolutely. Absolutely. 

[00:28:31] Sylvia: And the octopus teacher. 

[00:28:33] Christiana: Oh yes. One 

[00:28:34] Sylvia: man, one, just one octopus, one year, one Oscar, one book. He's really changed the thinking about so many people. Once you know, even if you're experiencing something through the eyes of others. You can't unknow. No. And in the 21st century, think of what is known that nobody, not the smartest people not Einstein could [00:29:00] know before the present time.

[00:29:03] Christiana: So is it that power of storytelling, for example, the octopus teacher? I mean, just such powerful visuals and storytelling. Is it the power of storytelling? Is it policy? Is it science? Is it, is it everything together that is actually going to make us finally open our eyes and do something different? Or would you say storytelling first, science first, policy first.

It 

[00:29:29] Sylvia: all comes together. It's curiosity that leads to discoveries, and anybody can do what scientists do and everybody should. That is to observe. Carefully and report honestly. And because we can share knowledge, share information, share experiences, tell stories instantly across the planet, we're connected in ways that give us an edge over those who preceded us.

I think [00:30:00] our superpower, our superpower is knowing. Knowing we know that we couldn't know before. What Earth looks like in space, knowing that life exists in the deepest parts of the sea, that we are connected, that the elements of the universe are in every one of us. And every squid and every cat, dog, every tree, every living thing, we're all connected and we are at a point that we can see the danger we are in that we have caused.

Mm-hmm. It's not a mystery. There's no excuse anymore for thinking that, oh, the ocean is too big to fail. We can put anything into it we want, we can take anything out of it that we want. That is so 20th century. We're in the 21st century actually. There are plenty of clues information going back before the 20th century for those who [00:31:00] were able to really take it in and look at the.

The big picture the way, even without the insights that now exist and the ability to look at patterns and synthesize information, there were those who said, you know, we've gotta take care of, we're losing the natural systems. I. The, the creation of national Parks of protected areas, because had we not taken action long ago to proactively protect special places on a land, if we would've lost them because we didn't know.

Complacency is still the key. Think about 1950s when at the height of the Cold War when nations were really, you know, tense about many things. They came together. Nations did to protect the an. From conversion to various destructive purposes that [00:32:00] could have taken place, but international agreement, the Antarctic Treaty is a symbol of what's possible.

Now, we have on the horizon, the highest seas treaty. Yes. To protect at least 30% of the land, 30% of the sea in the next five years. Do you think we can pull it off? 

[00:32:18] Christiana: Well, that's, that's the question, Sylvia. I mean, it doesn't go into force until 60 countries ratify, and yet, you know, taking a parallel from the fifties where so many countries came together for Antarctica.

This is the moment for at least 60 countries to come together for the oceans, and we're recording this just a few days before the UN Ocean Conference, which is definitely a pivotal moment as you pack your bags and you go over to knees to un knock to the Oceans Conference. [00:33:00] What are you hopeful that is going to come out?

What makes you positive and what are you concerned about? 

[00:33:06] Sylvia: Complacency, born of ignorance of not really understanding the danger we're in. I'm going to emphasize the positive because if you think we're going to fail, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. You don't try, you give up. It's just not acceptable.

There is a chance that we will come together, that we can, the opportunity is there as never before. 50 years from now, it'll be too late to accomplish what is now within our grasp. Mm-hmm. We still have 10% of the sharks, more or less. 

[00:33:45] Christiana: Wait, Sylvia, what did you say? We have 10% of the sharks left. That's it.

[00:33:50] Sylvia: That's the estimate. You know, when I began diving, I was warned, watch out for sharks. There are manning out there, and I did see [00:34:00] quite a few sharks, but I wasn't worried because, you know, I don't qualify for man eating sharks, but neither do you. Now when I go into the ocean, I'm afraid when I don't see sharks.

Where they once were a critical part of the carbon cycle. They eat fish or squid or whatever they consume, but they give nutrients back, like whales, the power, the organisms that generate oxygen, the capture carbon, the phytoplankton, the cope forests, the seagrass meadows, the man. It's an interacting system.

There is no waste in nature. Everything that looks like to us, waste is really essential for powering some other part of the ecosystem. It's taken all preceding history for life in the sea and on the land to shape the basic elements, rocks and water. Into this [00:35:00] system that is suitable for us, and it's taken us a very short time to unravel those systems in ways that are not favoring us.

Think about the odds that here's a planet where you can just breathe the air, where life flourishes. 

[00:35:19] Paul: Hmm. 

[00:35:20] an bu That's the job I think we face in Nice. We've lost so much, so fast, and yet we continue to push to take more. I mean, taking wildlife from the sea is scaling up. Nations are rushing to Antarctica. To take krill.

They're taking squid by the ton out of the high seas in tuna. You know, the collapse of tuna, they're still tuna, but we could be the last generation to know what tuna is. Yeah. 

[00:35:53] Christiana: Sylvia is overfishing the greatest threat to the ocean? I mean, when I think of threats, I think of [00:36:00] overfishing. I think of warming.

I think of plastics just as the three that come to mind most readily. The three of them obviously interact, but is there one that you would say is primary among them? Or something else that I haven't thought of. There are 

[00:36:17] Sylvia: actions that we can take to reduce the emissions of methane and carbon dioxide. If we just have the will to do what we know how to do.

We are lacking the conviction, the sense of urgency with respect to extraction of wildlife. That's one of the most straightforward ways to address climate change. And it's true on the land as well. Just look at intact natural systems, rainforests, healthy deserts, any system that is a result of thousands, millions of years of developing harmony.

Think about the Deep Sea. [00:37:00] Why would we even consider disrupting the Deep Sea? Through deep sea mining when number one, there's no real need to take what's down there for the, just the reasons that are given for mining the Deep Sea. I mean, they're based on marketing, not the truth. I. Taking of wildlife by the ton is not serving the needs of people, it's serving the greed of people.

Mm-hmm. Bravo for rewilding the land, but we are subsidizing the dewing of the ocean. Mm-hmm. Extravagant methods of embracing entire schools of tuna, great masses of krill from Antarctica. Squid from the high seas. What are we thinking? It's as if we aren't really tuned into what makes earth function. We monetize ocean life, ocean of wildlife without thinking twice.

But now we must [00:38:00] think three times or whatever it takes to realize the consequences of providing a market for wildlife. So exciting and so encouraging to see nations beginning to come together in the coast of South America, where Panama, Costa Rica and Ecuador have have come together in Columbia to respect pathways in the sea and avoid disruption for turtles, for whales.

Even for sharks now getting to be recognized for their importance, 

[00:38:35] Christiana: Sylvia? So that brings me to a closing invitation that I would like to make to you to come and dive with me in Isla El Coco in Costa Rica, where we still have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hammerheads. 

[00:38:49] Sylvia: Yes, but we've, we've reversed the trend with whales.

There are more sea turtles today than there were. There're more [00:39:00] whales. There's evidence we can change. We can changed in a positive direction. Don't give up. Get going. We 

[00:39:08] Christiana: never give up here. We never give up. Sylvia, thank you so, so much. I look forward to seeing you at the Oceans Conference, and thank you for taking the time before that to join us here.

Thank you so, so much. You are a legend, madame. 

[00:39:25] Sylvia: Oh, I'm looking at a legend right now. I so appreciate and am grateful for what you are doing to awaken the world. To the importance of our actions that are affecting climate. This is perhaps maybe not our last chance, but it's our last best chance to take action.

[00:39:58] Tom: So how wonderful to have [00:40:00] Sylvia Earl finally on the podcast. It's been a long time in coming, but beautiful, uh, interview Christiana, what do you, what do you leave that with? 

[00:40:07] Christiana: You know, I think Sylvia's love and commitment to the ocean is so beautiful how they intertwine with each other. Mm-hmm. Because she is so knowledgeable.

She is such a scientist, and. She just brings all of her emotion and loyalty to the ocean. So that, that is, I think what has always impressed me about her, about people like Jane Goodall who are amazing scientists, or David Attenborough, right, right. That caliber of people who are just top, top scientists and bring their entire self, their entire heart.

Their entire emotional world to the natural world. It's such a beautiful combination. 

[00:40:57] Tom: Yeah. You know, the word that comes up for me [00:41:00] particularly, I mean certainly with Sylvia, but when you say there's other two names as well, is a sense of reverence. Mm. You know that it's when when you watch them explaining the natural world, it's clear that they revere it, that they're in love with it, and then that's, it gives you a window into that through there.

Connection. I think that's why they've been so impactful. And Sylvia, I mean, beautiful interview. Absolutely. And I have to say, this whole episode on Oceans has been amazing. It's really, it's really opened my eyes to the incredible work that's ongoing. The, the desperate nature of the crisis. But also I. The pathways to solutions and the fact that everybody wants this, right?

Everybody is heartbroken about the state of the oceans and wants to do something about it. I mean, the political momentum and will, I think is absolute. We just need to keep pushing on that and get to the point where we stop doing these terrible things like subsidizing destructive fisheries and, and, and other things like that.

But if I, I leave here in nice feeling, optimistic. That there are pathways and that actually the public will demand this. We have great leaders like Sylvia [00:42:00] Earl showing the way. So I feel pretty good. Yeah, yeah, 

[00:42:03] Christiana: yeah. Me too. And I just think that what is unique about the oceans is that there's such an emotive force.

Mm-hmm. They just speak directly to our hearts, and I think that's the strength. 

[00:42:13] Tom: Yeah. 

[00:42:14] Christiana: So Tom, you know, I thought everyone who's here at the Oceans Conference was actually at the Oceans Conference, but apparently they are at the Oceans Conference and listening to our podcast. 

[00:42:26] Tom: That that's true. It seems so.

Yes, 

[00:42:28] Christiana: because apparently since. The moment that we said that there were 32 ratifications of the High Seas Treaty and you called for everyone else to ratify, do you know how many countries have ratified? Absolutely. Only exclusively in attention to your call. 

[00:42:50] Tom: Uh, I, I dunno, but I do have some unfortunate news.

But tell me first, and I'm gonna share the unfortunate news. 

[00:42:54] Christiana: They're up to 49. 

[00:42:56] Tom: That's amazing. Okay, so how many are needed for, for up 11? 

[00:42:58] Christiana: Just 11 more. 11 more. [00:43:00] Come on people. And then it goes into, it goes into force and it becomes an A binding. International. That would be a huge 

[00:43:08] Tom: outcome from this huge outcome.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. The, the bad news is that the thing you remember that you think was on a previous podcast is actually on this podcast, but we recorded it yesterday, so we can't have had an impact 'cause No. Oh, 

[00:43:21] Paul: no one has heard it. 

[00:43:23] Christiana: Oh. But maybe they just felt 

[00:43:24] Tom: the intention. Yeah. So anyway. Yeah.

We'll claim the next 11. 

[00:43:27] Christiana: Darn. Okay. 

[00:43:29] Tom: Alright. Brilliant. Okay, well this has been a lot of fun. It's been lovely to see you. 

[00:43:32] Christiana: Wonderful. 

[00:43:33] Tom: Um, Misty pd. See you next week. We'll be back next week and, um, we will be back in our usual configuration. 

[00:43:38] Christiana: Oh, you know what, before we close Yeah. We had an, a little message from one of our listeners, Carlos, who speaks.

Portuguese and suggested that we interpret. Al from the Brazilian presidency in a slightly different [00:44:00] way. Oh, okay. And he suggests that the closest translation or interpretation of Al from the Portuguese is the concept of barn raising. Where everyone gets together to get the job done. Oh, 

[00:44:17] Tom: that's amazing.

I love that. 

[00:44:19] Christiana: And I thought, that is such a nice translation. I think that's really what they mean. Mm. Right. They're, they're going back to a concept that is ages old in Brazil and barn raisin would have the same old connotation and it's basically, here's a job that needs doing, it needs doing quickly, and can everybody come and help?

[00:44:40] Tom: Let's do it. Yeah, let's do it. Yeah. Perfect. Alright, love that. Amazing. Alright. Thanks everyone. See you next week.

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