300: Hope for the High Seas?: Sylvia Earle and Oceans on the World Stage

[00:14:31] Christiana: So Sylvia Earl, I. I think by now a household name, but just in case she's a marine biologist, oceanographer explorer, author, lecturer, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

She was also the first female chief scientist of Noah. Collectively, I. All the time that she has been underwater is the equivalent of an entire year, the entire year, uh, during her lifetime. But for one research project, she [00:15:00] lived underwater for 14 days in a very. Unique research submarine. 

[00:15:09] Tom: I mean, seriously.

How wonder does that? I don't know. It's amazing. Yeah. Well, she was 

[00:15:12] Christiana: thrilled. 

[00:15:13] Tom: Right? Okay. It's a amazing conversation. So let's go to your discussion with Sylvia Ell.

[00:15:23] Christiana: Sylvia, thank you so, so much for joining us here A few days before Unuc starts, we knew you were gonna be incredibly busy. So we wanted to take a little of your time before the Oceans Conference, and I cannot believe that we have not had you on the podcast before. We've been wanting to get you for such a long time, and here we are finally.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Really sweet of you. I can't 

[00:15:49] Sylvia: believe that we haven't. Been diving together, but that's on my bucket list. 

[00:15:54] Christiana: Well, you see, the reason why I wouldn't wanna dive with you is because you would go like a hundred meters [00:16:00] deeper than I and put me totally to shame. I am often asked what got me into climate, and I would like to ask you the same question.

If we go way back into the first years of your passion for ocean, what kindled that passion for the oceans? 

[00:16:21] Sylvia: Well, the ocean got my attention when I was three years old. Got knocked over by a wave, but it's life in the ocean. That has held my attention all these years. Knowing that the water is beautiful, it's wonderful, it's inspirational to look out over a.

Vast wild ocean, but it's even better to go in the ocean. In the 

[00:16:46] Christiana: ocean, 

[00:16:47] Sylvia: yeah. Meet the creatures who lived there. It's like diving into the history of life on earth. Even. Even just holding your breaths and going beneath the surface, but even more thrilling [00:17:00] to be able to. Get in a little submarine and go down to the edge of light, the twilight zone, and then to go even deeper where it's dark all of the time, still filled with beautiful things.

[00:17:13] Christiana: And we're still discovering so many of those species that are down there. 

[00:17:17] Sylvia: The deeper we go, the less we know, but the more new discoveries. Mm. So we're just at the edge of the greatest era of exploration. Ever. I mean, when I was a child and all humans who lived in most of our history, we have not had access to the sea beneath the surface.

But now we do. Now we do. And I love the way divers around the world, just using scuba, are coming back with the most remarkable insights about the importance of the ocean for things like generating oxygen, capturing carbon, but getting to know. Individual creatures who live there, not just, oh, [00:18:00] there's a fish, but there's that fish.

I've seen that fish before. He lives right there, 

[00:18:05] Christiana: Sylvia, which, yeah. Which animal creature has been the most astonishing to you that you have personally seen? Because I know you get go very, very deep in these submarines, so which one has just totally whacked you over? Can you choose one or are there too many?

[00:18:24] Sylvia: Well, I'm surprised and delighted every time I go beneath the surface and I have a special affection for cephalopods, octopuses, and squids. I. I have a particular affection for grouper because they're so curious. Mm. Probably around like curious children. Speaking of children, I suppose my favorite sea creatures or my grandchildren, because they like you and every other living thing, were all dependent.

We're all sea creatures. No ocean, no us. Yep. And to see [00:19:00] them awaken to what's out there, down there has been one of the great. Joys of my life. 

[00:19:06] Christiana: So you have been able to pass that DNA to the future generations already. 

[00:19:12] Sylvia: It's in the DNA of all kids everywhere. All of us, yes. That 

[00:19:15] Christiana: is true. Tell me, you have been watching and studying and researching and loving the oceans for so many decades.

What are the changes that you have seen? Here's the thing, 

[00:19:29] Sylvia: it's one ocean. What happens to any place, like the land itself, if there are fires in the Amazon or a storm or an earthquake in New Zealand, the whole planet is connected and sooner or later the influence is felt like when you stub your toe, your whole body feels the effects.

The deep sea is warming. It just takes a little longer because everything does connect and it, it's part of the [00:20:00] concern that the ocean has absorbed much of the carbon dioxide that has been added to the atmosphere beyond the natural levels added because of US burning fossil fuel. And also when we clear cut a forest or clear cut fish outta the ocean or squid, we destroy the basic carbon capturing mechanisms and the carbon that we, it goes back into the atmosphere.

It's like burning trees. Where does the CO2 go up into the atmosphere and the forest that once was capturing carbon or the fish and squid that were holding the carbon in the ocean no longer are there to do what they've been doing. Light it's a living planet. I think that's the key that some of the climate scientists are really acknowledging now.

But originally, when. The concerns about human impacts on the changing climate were [00:21:00] first acknowledged. It was the atmospheric scientists who were measuring CO2, who were mm-hmm. Looking at the impacts in the atmosphere. But now even the organization where I served as the chief scientist, Noah. The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration in the us.

It actually was formed by a combination of oceanic and atmospheric scientists in 1970 deliberately to try to get these experts from these two disciplines to get together and really share what each knew, so that together. They could see how everything is joined, and especially to acknowledge that the ocean really drives climate.

No ocean. Mm-hmm. No life, but no ocean, 

[00:21:49] Christiana: no livable planet. 

[00:21:51] Sylvia: No. It would be like all those other places in the universe that don't have, yeah. An ocean or life or both. [00:22:00] 

[00:22:00] Christiana: Sylvia, you know, one, one of my deepest frustrations in life is that there is so little. Attention paid to science. People who are in policy, people who are taking investment decisions, people who are drafting regulation.

Somehow they are blind and deaf to the hard facts of science. Scientists have been. Screaming from the rooftops about the dangers that we're encountering, and yet it seems that policy makers and those making decisions about investment and economy are completely deaf to it. Do you share that frustration or do you see a path toward making science much more of a factor of change?

[00:22:54] Sylvia: The answer is yes to both. Okay. I do see a path because [00:23:00] nature, the ocean, all of it. The evidence is there for anyone to see. Not just nerdy scientists, but I. Farmers, people who live in cities, people who are seeing changes, everyone that it is getting increasingly warm, increasingly fast. We are on a trek to a not very good place for our species.

Life will go on one way or the other. I mean, think about times in the past when, when we weren't here, that we were not here. We live in this era that. Geologists call the Holocene when civilization has really prospered. You could call it the sweet spot in time. Mm-hmm. About 11,000 years ago when things miraculously came together with a kind of stability that has favored us.

Mm-hmm. Oxygen in the atmosphere, range of temperature. Just so many things. [00:24:00] Stability long enough for us to really take advantage of growing things, agriculture. Mm-hmm. Which made, has made possible our population to grow from a few million to by 1500. There were half a billion of us by 1800 of. A billion.

When I came along, there were 2 billion. Now there are 8 billion. This looks like, woo-hoo. We humans are on a path to success, prosperity, but for the first time, we are able to see the consequences. How has our prosperity been possible? One species dominating the planet and the cost, 

[00:24:41] Christiana: the arrogance of it.

Sylvia, the arrogance of it. 

[00:24:44] Sylvia: Yeah, not being able to see that we need nature. We need, mm-hmm. The forest. We need an intact ocean. We almost killed the very last wheel. Good news is when we stopped in 1986 from the commercial [00:25:00] extraction killing of wheels globally, they came back. 86 wasn't that long ago, but it has made a difference.

They're not back to where they were a thousand years ago, but they're more than when I was a child. Hmm. When we take action, we can take action that can make a difference. Protected areas can see when you stop the killing and really understand the value, the greater value of a living fish, a living whale, a living coral reef versus a dead one.

It's, it's exactly beginning to sink in. The economists are looking at whales, not the way I do. Well, in some ways, yes, but the carbon value. In whales, living whales has been given a value of on the order of a trillion dollars. That's even with the depressed number of whales that now exist. Imagine when, when their numbers were at their state before [00:26:00] humans began to to kill them.

For products you can sell even today. He currently sold squid and fish and krill from Antarctica, but the living value of krill to us for carbon, I. And for other values. I sat on the International Wailing Commission for four years and I was just blown away by the comments by those who want the whales dead for products measured against just that narrow segment.

1. Of a human population that was discovering what joy there is in watching whales. It's become a business like birdwatching. 

[00:26:42] Christiana: Absolutely. Who knew? You know Sylvia? I live directly on the Pacific in Costa Rica, right on the beach, and a couple of. Months ago, we were having lunch outside and I spotted a humpback breaching, and then I thought, I spotted [00:27:00] a little one breaching right behind her.

And so my daughter and son-in-law jumped on their boards and paddled out and were so close to this whale who was teaching. She had just calfed. She was teaching her calf breaching. Okay. And when my son-in-law got there, the whale was still teaching the breaching. And then when my daughter arrived a few minutes later and my daughter is breastfeeding her new child, I.

This female whale stopped breaching and started breastfeeding her cuff. Wow. Now, I mean, can you imagine? I even, when I think about it now, I get goosebumps because there is a communication here, interspecies communication. For sure. Yes. And we're also completely ignorant 

[00:27:57] Sylvia: about that. Think about the change [00:28:00] in our attitude about our fellow primates because.

One person, Jane Goodall, spent years getting to know one species, chimpanzees. 

[00:28:09] Christiana: Exactly, exactly. 

[00:28:11] Sylvia: Against the advice of some of her sober sided senior scientists. That you can't give them names. You can't think of them as having personality. I mean, why not? They do. They do. They, they exude personality. Some people have personality, you know?

[00:28:29] Christiana: Absolutely. Absolutely. 

[00:28:31] Sylvia: And the octopus teacher. 

[00:28:33] Christiana: Oh yes. One 

[00:28:34] Sylvia: man, one, just one octopus, one year, one Oscar, one book. He's really changed the thinking about so many people. Once you know, even if you're experiencing something through the eyes of others. You can't unknow. No. And in the 21st century, think of what is known that nobody, not the smartest people not Einstein could [00:29:00] know before the present time.

[00:29:03] Christiana: So is it that power of storytelling, for example, the octopus teacher? I mean, just such powerful visuals and storytelling. Is it the power of storytelling? Is it policy? Is it science? Is it, is it everything together that is actually going to make us finally open our eyes and do something different? Or would you say storytelling first, science first, policy first.

It 

[00:29:29] Sylvia: all comes together. It's curiosity that leads to discoveries, and anybody can do what scientists do and everybody should. That is to observe. Carefully and report honestly. And because we can share knowledge, share information, share experiences, tell stories instantly across the planet, we're connected in ways that give us an edge over those who preceded us.

I think [00:30:00] our superpower, our superpower is knowing. Knowing we know that we couldn't know before. What Earth looks like in space, knowing that life exists in the deepest parts of the sea, that we are connected, that the elements of the universe are in every one of us. And every squid and every cat, dog, every tree, every living thing, we're all connected and we are at a point that we can see the danger we are in that we have caused.

Mm-hmm. It's not a mystery. There's no excuse anymore for thinking that, oh, the ocean is too big to fail. We can put anything into it we want, we can take anything out of it that we want. That is so 20th century. We're in the 21st century actually. There are plenty of clues information going back before the 20th century for those who [00:31:00] were able to really take it in and look at the.

The big picture the way, even without the insights that now exist and the ability to look at patterns and synthesize information, there were those who said, you know, we've gotta take care of, we're losing the natural systems. I. The, the creation of national Parks of protected areas, because had we not taken action long ago to proactively protect special places on a land, if we would've lost them because we didn't know.

Complacency is still the key. Think about 1950s when at the height of the Cold War when nations were really, you know, tense about many things. They came together. Nations did to protect the an. From conversion to various destructive purposes that [00:32:00] could have taken place, but international agreement, the Antarctic Treaty is a symbol of what's possible.

Now, we have on the horizon, the highest seas treaty. Yes. To protect at least 30% of the land, 30% of the sea in the next five years. Do you think we can pull it off? 

[00:32:18] Christiana: Well, that's, that's the question, Sylvia. I mean, it doesn't go into force until 60 countries ratify, and yet, you know, taking a parallel from the fifties where so many countries came together for Antarctica.

This is the moment for at least 60 countries to come together for the oceans, and we're recording this just a few days before the UN Ocean Conference, which is definitely a pivotal moment as you pack your bags and you go over to knees to un knock to the Oceans Conference. [00:33:00] What are you hopeful that is going to come out?

What makes you positive and what are you concerned about? 

[00:33:06] Sylvia: Complacency, born of ignorance of not really understanding the danger we're in. I'm going to emphasize the positive because if you think we're going to fail, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. You don't try, you give up. It's just not acceptable.

There is a chance that we will come together, that we can, the opportunity is there as never before. 50 years from now, it'll be too late to accomplish what is now within our grasp. Mm-hmm. We still have 10% of the sharks, more or less. 

[00:33:45] Christiana: Wait, Sylvia, what did you say? We have 10% of the sharks left. That's it.

[00:33:50] Sylvia: That's the estimate. You know, when I began diving, I was warned, watch out for sharks. There are manning out there, and I did see [00:34:00] quite a few sharks, but I wasn't worried because, you know, I don't qualify for man eating sharks, but neither do you. Now when I go into the ocean, I'm afraid when I don't see sharks.

Where they once were a critical part of the carbon cycle. They eat fish or squid or whatever they consume, but they give nutrients back, like whales, the power, the organisms that generate oxygen, the capture carbon, the phytoplankton, the cope forests, the seagrass meadows, the man. It's an interacting system.

There is no waste in nature. Everything that looks like to us, waste is really essential for powering some other part of the ecosystem. It's taken all preceding history for life in the sea and on the land to shape the basic elements, rocks and water. Into this [00:35:00] system that is suitable for us, and it's taken us a very short time to unravel those systems in ways that are not favoring us.

Think about the odds that here's a planet where you can just breathe the air, where life flourishes. 

[00:35:19] Paul: Hmm. 

[00:35:20] an bu That's the job I think we face in Nice. We've lost so much, so fast, and yet we continue to push to take more. I mean, taking wildlife from the sea is scaling up. Nations are rushing to Antarctica. To take krill.

They're taking squid by the ton out of the high seas in tuna. You know, the collapse of tuna, they're still tuna, but we could be the last generation to know what tuna is. Yeah. 

[00:35:53] Christiana: Sylvia is overfishing the greatest threat to the ocean? I mean, when I think of threats, I think of [00:36:00] overfishing. I think of warming.

I think of plastics just as the three that come to mind most readily. The three of them obviously interact, but is there one that you would say is primary among them? Or something else that I haven't thought of. There are 

[00:36:17] Sylvia: actions that we can take to reduce the emissions of methane and carbon dioxide. If we just have the will to do what we know how to do.

We are lacking the conviction, the sense of urgency with respect to extraction of wildlife. That's one of the most straightforward ways to address climate change. And it's true on the land as well. Just look at intact natural systems, rainforests, healthy deserts, any system that is a result of thousands, millions of years of developing harmony.

Think about the Deep Sea. [00:37:00] Why would we even consider disrupting the Deep Sea? Through deep sea mining when number one, there's no real need to take what's down there for the, just the reasons that are given for mining the Deep Sea. I mean, they're based on marketing, not the truth. I. Taking of wildlife by the ton is not serving the needs of people, it's serving the greed of people.

Mm-hmm. Bravo for rewilding the land, but we are subsidizing the dewing of the ocean. Mm-hmm. Extravagant methods of embracing entire schools of tuna, great masses of krill from Antarctica. Squid from the high seas. What are we thinking? It's as if we aren't really tuned into what makes earth function. We monetize ocean life, ocean of wildlife without thinking twice.

But now we must [00:38:00] think three times or whatever it takes to realize the consequences of providing a market for wildlife. So exciting and so encouraging to see nations beginning to come together in the coast of South America, where Panama, Costa Rica and Ecuador have have come together in Columbia to respect pathways in the sea and avoid disruption for turtles, for whales.

Even for sharks now getting to be recognized for their importance, 

[00:38:35] Christiana: Sylvia? So that brings me to a closing invitation that I would like to make to you to come and dive with me in Isla El Coco in Costa Rica, where we still have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hammerheads. 

[00:38:49] Sylvia: Yes, but we've, we've reversed the trend with whales.

There are more sea turtles today than there were. There're more [00:39:00] whales. There's evidence we can change. We can changed in a positive direction. Don't give up. Get going. We 

[00:39:08] Christiana: never give up here. We never give up. Sylvia, thank you so, so much. I look forward to seeing you at the Oceans Conference, and thank you for taking the time before that to join us here.

Thank you so, so much. You are a legend, madame. 

[00:39:25] Sylvia: Oh, I'm looking at a legend right now. I so appreciate and am grateful for what you are doing to awaken the world. To the importance of our actions that are affecting climate. This is perhaps maybe not our last chance, but it's our last best chance to take action.

[00:39:58] Tom: So how wonderful to have [00:40:00] Sylvia Earl finally on the podcast. It's been a long time in coming, but beautiful, uh, interview Christiana, what do you, what do you leave that with? 

[00:40:07] Christiana: You know, I think Sylvia's love and commitment to the ocean is so beautiful how they intertwine with each other. Mm-hmm. Because she is so knowledgeable.

She is such a scientist, and. She just brings all of her emotion and loyalty to the ocean. So that, that is, I think what has always impressed me about her, about people like Jane Goodall who are amazing scientists, or David Attenborough, right, right. That caliber of people who are just top, top scientists and bring their entire self, their entire heart.

Their entire emotional world to the natural world. It's such a beautiful combination. 

[00:40:57] Tom: Yeah. You know, the word that comes up for me [00:41:00] particularly, I mean certainly with Sylvia, but when you say there's other two names as well, is a sense of reverence. Mm. You know that it's when when you watch them explaining the natural world, it's clear that they revere it, that they're in love with it, and then that's, it gives you a window into that through there.

Connection. I think that's why they've been so impactful. And Sylvia, I mean, beautiful interview. Absolutely. And I have to say, this whole episode on Oceans has been amazing. It's really, it's really opened my eyes to the incredible work that's ongoing. The, the desperate nature of the crisis. But also I. The pathways to solutions and the fact that everybody wants this, right?

Everybody is heartbroken about the state of the oceans and wants to do something about it. I mean, the political momentum and will, I think is absolute. We just need to keep pushing on that and get to the point where we stop doing these terrible things like subsidizing destructive fisheries and, and, and other things like that.

But if I, I leave here in nice feeling, optimistic. That there are pathways and that actually the public will demand this. We have great leaders like Sylvia [00:42:00] Earl showing the way. So I feel pretty good. Yeah, yeah, 

[00:42:03] Christiana: yeah. Me too. And I just think that what is unique about the oceans is that there's such an emotive force.

Mm-hmm. They just speak directly to our hearts, and I think that's the strength. 

[00:42:13] Tom: Yeah. 

[00:42:14] Christiana: So Tom, you know, I thought everyone who's here at the Oceans Conference was actually at the Oceans Conference, but apparently they are at the Oceans Conference and listening to our podcast. 

[00:42:26] Tom: That that's true. It seems so.

Yes, 

[00:42:28] Christiana: because apparently since. The moment that we said that there were 32 ratifications of the High Seas Treaty and you called for everyone else to ratify, do you know how many countries have ratified? Absolutely. Only exclusively in attention to your call. 

[00:42:50] Tom: Uh, I, I dunno, but I do have some unfortunate news.

But tell me first, and I'm gonna share the unfortunate news. 

[00:42:54] Christiana: They're up to 49. 

[00:42:56] Tom: That's amazing. Okay, so how many are needed for, for up 11? 

[00:42:58] Christiana: Just 11 more. 11 more. [00:43:00] Come on people. And then it goes into, it goes into force and it becomes an A binding. International. That would be a huge 

[00:43:08] Tom: outcome from this huge outcome.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. The, the bad news is that the thing you remember that you think was on a previous podcast is actually on this podcast, but we recorded it yesterday, so we can't have had an impact 'cause No. Oh, 

[00:43:21] Paul: no one has heard it. 

[00:43:23] Christiana: Oh. But maybe they just felt 

[00:43:24] Tom: the intention. Yeah. So anyway. Yeah.

We'll claim the next 11. 

[00:43:27] Christiana: Darn. Okay. 

[00:43:29] Tom: Alright. Brilliant. Okay, well this has been a lot of fun. It's been lovely to see you. 

[00:43:32] Christiana: Wonderful. 

[00:43:33] Tom: Um, Misty pd. See you next week. We'll be back next week and, um, we will be back in our usual configuration. 

[00:43:38] Christiana: Oh, you know what, before we close Yeah. We had an, a little message from one of our listeners, Carlos, who speaks.

Portuguese and suggested that we interpret. Al from the Brazilian presidency in a slightly different [00:44:00] way. Oh, okay. And he suggests that the closest translation or interpretation of Al from the Portuguese is the concept of barn raising. Where everyone gets together to get the job done. Oh, 

[00:44:17] Tom: that's amazing.

I love that. 

[00:44:19] Christiana: And I thought, that is such a nice translation. I think that's really what they mean. Mm. Right. They're, they're going back to a concept that is ages old in Brazil and barn raisin would have the same old connotation and it's basically, here's a job that needs doing, it needs doing quickly, and can everybody come and help?