220: Inequality Is At The Root!

Paul: [00:04:16] There's a few different prize winners, that's like a few millions. And look, I think your time is very precious and very generously and effectively given. And that's the point I wanted to make. The Daily Telegraph, the paper of record for the United Kingdom, says the Earthshot Prize is fast becoming the environmental equivalent of the Oscars. And as the Prince of Wales took his Earthshot Prize to Singapore, he has a roster of A-listers on the green carpet to prove it. But in all seriousness, the mindset, the coming together, the sense of occasion. Where else do we get that in climate change. Where else are we offered an opportunity to celebrate and get incredibly excited about brilliant things happening. It's absolutely the right way to to flip the whole climate narrative from kind of like oh no to oh yes.

Tom: [00:05:07] Yeah, totally. And it's about celebration and joy and excitement right. And it's a climate event all about solutions. And as you said, Christiana, entrepreneurial ism and possibility. And, you know, I mean, do follow the Earthshot Prize on social media because like Christiana, your dress was beautiful. You looked amazing standing on the on the green carpet next to Jacinda Ardern. 

Paul: [00:05:25] Very glamorous. 

Christiana: [00:05:25] That of course is the most important detail of the entire thing.

Tom: [00:05:27] The most important thing, I've had good training in my life.

Paul: [00:05:29] But you flew five stylists over from Costa Rica is a bit shocking, you know that you had seven hairdressers, this kind of stuff. Some people would query the wisdom of that.

Tom: [00:05:39] Oh, we're going to get mail. Let's point out, for those who don't immediately get Paul's British sarcasm, that that was a joke. No stylist were flown from Costa Rica over to Singapore for the Earthshot prize. 

Paul: [00:05:46] Natural style, natural style.

Tom: [00:05:48] But I think it's fantastic and I think it changes the narrative globally on climate so I know you put a lot of time and effort into it, but I think it's hugely impactful. And just one, just one question for you, Christiana, I mean, going to Singapore, you know, I periodically go there for work here and there. And I always find it a very interesting experience because it's a country that is so well run. And you go there and just like it's kind of shocking when you come from some of these.

Christiana: [00:06:13] Everything works.

Tom: [00:06:13] Everything works, right. Which, I mean, we've gotten to a point now where that's not true in many places, from infrastructure to governments to laws, etcetera. And, you know, we're not necessarily going to go into the complexity of government structures because there is some complexity there. However, it does make me think about the price of democracy. And you and I had this chat the other day because of these very alarming polls that came out a few days ago in the US, showing that Trump now leads Biden in five of the six most important battleground states one year before the 2024 election. So we are looking at the terrifyingly plausible prospect of a nail biting year that could result in Trump 2.0. And I've been reading some of the analysis from people like Martin Wolf and others who are sort of saying, this won't be like last time, a kind of hapless group of lunatics who don't really know what they're doing and didn't expect to win. If he gets back in, it'll be much more organized, much more coordinated, and the attack and destruction of democratic institutions will be much more complete. I'm mean, it's not much point in saying, how worried are we? I think we're very worried. But I think what that combines with, and this is what I'd love to have your reflections on, is we are facing these systemic, terrifying global challenges, climate change, nature loss, you know, conflict, etcetera. Our democratic institutions are not really serving us in trying to actually deliver solutions. And we're seeing a massive drop of confidence in, or a drop of appreciation of the importance of democratic processes, particularly by young people as a result of these failures. This is a big topic to break up at the, break into at the beginning of a podcast. But what the hell do we do about that? Because we know that what is down that road is very concerning. Who would like to come in?

Paul: [00:07:57] I'm very happy to just give some reflections. Singapore is a very exceptional nation. There is an open society pretty much in terms of open debate, pretty much, and elections. But it's a complex society also. But what I would say is that the nation was built by an individual with a very strong will, and Lee Kuan Yew made some extraordinary comments. And the one I'm most struck by is that he said, when you have ministers dealing with billions of dollars, it is important that they are paid good salaries or else you risk a system failure. And I think that that single insight goes to the heart of what is wrong with so much of the democracy, and particularly the EU, and especially in the US, is because we have essentially an ability for public officials, whether they're civil servants or especially people in political office, to be essentially, let's not put too nicer name on it, corrupted by money and influence, especially in the US, where you require money just to pay for the advertising to become elected. And so I think the best part about your question, Tom and Christiana will have a better answer than me. But the best part about your question is to say that this is actually the crux of the whole war you could argue the degree to which our governments are able to serve their populace and fulfil their kind of sacred duty to protect the citizen, that's being threatened by dysfunction. And it's not a small point, it's the heart of so many things we discuss on this podcast, I think.

Christiana: [00:09:38] Well, you know, when you're here, you're really struck by the very rapid growth of a country. Singapore broke away first from the British Empire in 1963 and then from Malaysia in 1965. So as a country it's existed for barely 50 years. And that is amazing when you think that 50 years ago it was basically a swamp right next to Malaysia. And here you are in one of the most modern cities slash countries because it is a city nation, one of the most modern, well-run, efficient and prosperous countries in barely 50 years. And so you wonder, I always when I'm here, I always think, why can't Costa Rica not be like Singapore. That's always on my mind. Now it is as you say, Tom, it was built by the leader very much from an entrepreneurial perspective. And I take it, although I have never seen a cheque, but I take it that it is true that government officials are paid more than private sector people who are devoting their time to the private sector. Why? Because they want the government well run. The last time I was here, and I'm not sure if this is a fact or a rumour, but the last time I was here, I was told that government officials get a bonus at the end of the year based on that year's GDP growth. So if that is true, then you see how a private sector mentality has really been taken in to the public sector operation and, and how incentives are given for that, for basically what would be growth in a company.

Christiana: [00:11:55] Now, to me, the question and there's no doubt that this is an absolutely beautiful city, right. Green, everywhere you turn there is green. The walls of all buildings are green. Everything is green. I went to a reserve the other day and it's really pretty remarkable. You go to these beautiful natural reserves and you see crocodiles and, you know, all sorts of wild animals in the water. And then you raise your eyes and there are these huge tall buildings, scarcely, you know, 300m across the water. So, so it really is a, it's a fusion, I think, a very interesting fusion. The question that I do not know how to answer is the same question that I would level at, let's call it private sector capitalism. How effective is it at representing the interests of those at the bottom. That's the question always that you have in capitalism. That's the question that is frankly vexing the United States, because Trump is taking advantage of the fact that there is so much, so much anger at the bottom of the pyramid toward the top. And so he abuses and uses that anger to his benefit. And a well-run government, a well-run country or city state ought to be able to get to the kinds of development that are visible here in Singapore and also answer the question that governments are therefore not just private sector, governments are there to protect the most vulnerable and if that is possible, if you can do both and do both exceedingly well, then you have a very powerful equation.

Tom: [00:14:01] Yeah, it makes me think of, after Trump was elected, in an attempt to sort of understand what had happened, I went with a group of climate leaders to West Virginia to go down coal mines and meet some of the people there who had voted in some of the counties that voted most overwhelmingly for Trump. And it was sort of heart-breaking, to be honest, because you met these coal miners who had had these sort of, you know, prosperous pasts with their family where they've been able to support their families. And we talked to them and, you know, went down the mines and they were like, oh, it's coming back, you know, the good old days are coming back. We've got Trump now. This is like in the first few months of his presidency. And you had this realization that they'd been, they'd been lied to for shallow political reasons and that actually he wasn't protecting the most vulnerable, people whose jobs are transitioning in any way either. But he was leveraging them through narrative and through nostalgia for a particular outcome that he was trying to drive towards. And if you look around. 

Paul: [00:14:55] Lies.

Tom: [00:14:56] He lied, yeah exactly. And you look around, I mean, Brexit's the same, right. You know, there were lies for narrow political outcomes that have damaged vulnerable people. So it's not surprising that we're now asking these concerning, but searching questions about the democratic process that we need to find compelling answers for. Because you're right, Paul, that when it really goes wrong, it goes wrong really badly if you don't have those checks and balances in place.

Christiana: [00:15:23] Inequality, inequality, inequality, inequality really is at the root of this absolutely dreadful situation that we have in the United States and his brilliant, brilliant use and abuse of that.

Tom: [00:15:37] Yeah.

Paul: [00:15:38] Yeah, and I mean, just to sort of finish on that inequality side of Singapore, a city state, one of the two most expensive cities in the world, New York and Singapore. There they are, the two most expensive cities in the world. When you have a population of a few millions in one of the world's most expensive cities, you don't have a have a particularly dramatic problem with regard to looking after everyone in the society, you have, you probably have very strict borders, you know, money is a funny thing. But back to Trump, I mean, we should be incredibly afraid. I personally am extremely concerned that, and you know, you've heard me saying that it's the fossil fuel versus renewables election. The FT actually picked that up, they quoted someone Kevin Book from ClearView Energy Partners, the device of 2020 election fractured energy politics and the key point being Democrats became the party of transition, Republicans the defenders of fossil fuels. The new Speaker of the House, you would have picked up has been, you know, a huge recipient of fossil fuels. So what we've got to recognize is that.

Christiana: [00:16:49] Sorry, a climate denier, is he not?

Paul: [00:16:52] He spoke about climate not necessarily being real in 2017. Unfortunately, you know, we've, the forces of polarization which serve certain political outcomes have been hard at work in the USA and disinformation across that enormous land mass with the ability to target, you know, swing states or the key states that decide the election are putting Trump in a properly electable position. And it's completely terrifying. And I personally, I did actually spend quite a bit of the weekend digging into Amy Westervelt's Drilled podcasts on the long narrative of the last, like 30, 40, 50, even back to John D. Rockefeller. The way business has come to kind of own the political process to some extent, and this has resulted in serious environmental problems in the past. And big tobacco and, you know, it would have cost millions of lives. The thing is, this is the world, and I've actually just spent today talking to some insurance companies that are not in the USA, and big insurance companies are not happy. And they, something is going to have to be done because US domestic politics is currently in a position to destroy the world. And I just want us to reflect on that for a minute.

Tom: [00:18:09] Yeah, yeah. Is that enough reflection?

Paul: [00:18:14] Well, on a.

Christiana: [00:18:16] Sorry Paul, you left me hanging. Insurances are not happy because?

Paul: [00:18:22] What an insurance company does, a big one, is it gets an awful lot of information about climate change. And this all comes up to a control room where the management insurance company go ahhh. Like, they're not really worried about going bust because they reprice annually. And, you know, it's not about them financially going out of business because insurance companies will protect themselves. I don't know if I ever told you the story about in 2001, I asked the head of the general insurance at the Association of British Insurers is anything like climate change happened before? And he said that after the Nazi bombing of Guernica, I think it was in 1937, the world's insurance companies got together in 1938 and said, you know, if your property is damaged by war, we won't pay. And the same for the renewable notices in 1939, 1940. So the insurance companies are not worried about going bust because they just kind of pull back.

Christiana: [00:19:11] They protect themselves.

Paul: [00:19:12] But what they are doing is they're looking at the apocalypse, and they're seeing that there's really quite strong action for example, in the enormous economy of China, there's really quite strong action all across the EU. There's really some action in the US with the Inflation Reduction Act. But let's not underestimate how significant the US economy is in terms of leading other nations and leading industries around the world. And they see a moment when the whole, you know, the direction, us going up and having something to celebrate could turn into us going down and having something to really worry about. And yeah, so that's, I mean, it's not just insurance companies, it's a whole bunch of businesses. But I just think insurance companies are particularly acutely aware of the fact that they're kind of, they've kind of got the memo, they've got the information, and they know that they can't just sit there.

Christiana: [00:20:07] Tom, do you remember in the lead up to the Paris Agreement in quite a few meetings that we had with the insurance industry, and the most terrifying statement that one of the reinsurers told us at that time was, if the world ever gets above two degrees, it will be systemically uninsurable, meaning nobody will be able to offer insurance for anything.

Tom: [00:20:32] Yeah, I do you remember that.

Paul: [00:20:34] And by the way, for those who are listening, are reinsurer is, insurance companies, guess what, they've got insurance companies called reinsurers. And of course, just as you point out, Christiana, they are the ultimate aggregators of risk. And they have the best information of all.

Tom: [00:20:46] Yeah. And I remember that really well. And Nick Robins brilliant man was a big part of that at the time wasn't he, I think now at the LSE. And yeah, I mean just the, the implications of that if you really reflect on it, just the systemic risk nature of all these interconnecting risks playing off each other means that something as basic as insurance would be fundamentally different in that world or potentially not even available.

Christiana: [00:21:11] Not even available.

Tom: [00:21:12] Not even available.

Christiana: [00:21:13] Yeah I mean, you have to pause and think of what would your life be like if you could not buy insurance for anything. You cannot buy health insurance. You cannot buy, you know, whatever. If you own a property, property insurance, if you're renting a property you can't buy. I mean, how would we deal, and that would be, by the way, in a world of incredibly heightened risk. So it's not like we wouldn't be able to buy insurance with the risk that we have now. No, we would have much higher risk, much higher probability, much higher consequences of the risk and the damages and not be able to buy any insurance at all. I mean, it is mind boggling.

Paul: [00:21:57] We are already there, Christiana. I mean, you may not know this, but in the UK there's a government backed reinsurance company called Flood Re and it's, it looks out to 2039 and sort of says, well we'll kind of insure the company, the insurance companies for flood risk right. But beyond 2039 what happens then. And also you know, how is this going to work and what is your property really worth. I've been talking to somebody who's very interested in trying to get property owners together to politicise them in a sense about the value of their homes going down. So this is a very, very live issue that's already playing out.

Tom: [00:22:31] And the cultural impacts of that right. You only have to think for a minute to think about examples of there would be many examples that would suddenly start cropping up in our lives, of people whose lives have been completely ruined by freak events right. And of course, that happens already in certain parts of the world, but that would then begin to happen in many more parts of the world. And that has a cultural impact on appetite for risk and willingness to be generous. You know, there's just wheels within wheels in terms of where all this goes. 

Paul: [00:22:56] On the plus side I was going to say there has been some interesting news from an unusual quarter. Did you see that Pope Francis has confirmed that he's going to travel to COP28 two weeks before his 87th birthday, becoming the first pontiff to participate in a UN environment meeting since they began in 1995. And he's criticized climate deniers with a lovely quote and foot dragging politicians, stating 'despite all attempts to deny, conceal, gloss over or relativize the issue, the signs of climate change are here and increasingly evident'. And a great gathering of faith leaders from all across the world recently to discuss climate change so pretty exciting. I can't claim to come from a faith root myself, but I do think, you know, at the one end we're talking about this kind of unravelling of conventional politics with special interests sort of torpedoing rationality. But then at that very moment, you know, enormous institutions who sort of think about the eternal, for want of a better word, are coming forward. It's interesting juxtaposition.

Christiana: [00:24:01] You know, one fun little detail there is that he will address COP 28 in Spanish, which is his native language, as we know he's from Argentina. And he, of course, speaks quite a few other languages of the UN. But he wants to speak in Spanish because he can be more passionate in Spanish. And so, you know, be ready for a passionate pope.

Tom: [00:24:33] The passionate pope, I love that, that's fantastic and I mean, God bless him right. Because he doesn't have to do this.

Paul: [00:24:39] What was that, sorry?

Tom: [00:24:39] He's, as you say, 87 years. Yeah, God bless him, yeah. I mean, 87 years old. No one would have blamed him if he just put out a strong statement and not turned up. But actually, physically turning up will put an enormous amount of pressure on people to not allow this COP to pass without significant breakthrough. And of course, that's what we have to hope for.

Christiana: [00:24:59] No no, this is the other way around. He wanted to go, he put his foot down. The Vatican is trying to dance around this and going, no, no, no, no, no, this has never occurred. You don't have to go. It's not your responsibility. And he's like, I'm going get it ready because I'm going.

Paul: [00:25:15] So there's not a democratic system inside the Vatican right. Do they all just like.

Tom: [00:25:24] No hugely, and reminds me of the work that brilliant Tessa Tennant did before Paris with Our Voices. The faith influence can just be so pivotal on climate and faith leaders stepping up in this way is an enormous cause for optimism and hope, because it really does make a difference, but needs to be repeated, right. It can't just be stated once. It needs to become part of the cultural narrative of faith, of all faiths.

Paul: [00:25:50] Can I ask you a funny question. I was really reflecting just before we got together about that word faith. What do you think about faith and climate change? And I don't really mean religions as such. I actually mean the word faith. I mean, you know, I guess we've got faith in our ability to fix it. We've got faith that if we don't, terrible things are going to happen. Is faith a positive word? I suppose that's really my question.

Tom: [00:26:16] Well, it's an interesting question. I think one of the problems is because people have misused the word faith to a certain degree, to say they believe in climate change, when really what it should have been is that they understand because it's scientifically based. So I think that there can be a problem there around faith in climate change, whereas actually it's just understanding of science related to climate change. But I think, so I think it's a good question, but I think they're different things. And I think the role of religion in climate is very important. What do you think, Christiana?

Christiana: [00:26:47] Yeah, I would agree with that. And it is wonderful that 35 of the world's highest level faith leaders have actually signed a statement and reminds me very much of the beautiful statement that we received just before the Paris Agreement and the act of involvement of so many different religious and spiritual leaders before Paris. But I think Tom, that Paul's question is actually adjacent to what you and I have just talked about. I think Paul is asking about faith as it relates to hope, to confidence, to optimism, I think, Paul, correct me if I'm wrong, I think you're saying, what is the role that we, all of us humans play in a mindset. And here we come back to the mindset. A mindset that is grounded in a determination to play our part, in a determination to make a difference, not to just sit back on the couch and twiddle our thumbs or pull the blanket over our heads. It is much more of a confidence measure that we humans have A. caused this, and B. can actually address it in a timely fashion. I think that's where Paul was going, were you Paul?

Paul: [00:28:21] I would use a football analogy and say I was simply in possession of the ball and I kicked it over to you Christiana and I think you've done wonderful things with it. I'm not sure if that was a goal, but it was certainly kind of deft footwork. I have heard once again that our new Speaker of the House is a little bit of a kind of, you know, I think he's, there's some mumbling about him thinking that there were dinosaurs on the Ark with the other animals, which scientists kind of point out that not only was there probably not an Ark and the world is more than 6000 years old, but the dinosaurs probably would have eaten all the other animals. Do you see what I mean. So it's kind of complicated there. But no, I think that faith is sort of a beautiful word. It's a nice song by George Michael, and it's a kind of active faith. You know we talked about active hope, active faith.

Tom: [00:29:08] Yeah and I mean, and we've spoken to people in the past like Katharine Hayhoe who have been so compelling in that regard right. Now, this is a short podcast because Christiana needs to get on stage in Singapore. There is myriad other things we can talk about. There was some agreement on the structure of the Loss and Damage Fund, which happened at the Pre-COP last week, but let's just put a pin in that.

Christiana: [00:29:27] That's a big deal, by the way, big deal. We definitely have to come back to that. But that's a big deal. 

Tom: [00:29:33] Yeah, it's a big deal and it will continue, the news around that will continue to evolve. I mean, it hasn't answered all questions, but it is actually quite potentially a significant breakthrough depending on what now happens in Dubai. So putting a pin in that and committing to coming back to it and recognizing the importance of it, I think we will say goodbye for this week and release Christiana onto the stage in Singapore and leave you.

Paul: [00:29:54] Glitz, glamour, famous global people.

Tom: [00:29:56] I do have FOMO as I look at Twitter and see you on the green carpet with Jacinda Ardern and you know, anyway, I hope you're enjoying yourself. And we will leave you with the music of DL Rossi. So thank you for joining us this week. We'll see you next week.

Paul: [00:30:10] Bye.

Christiana: [00:30:11] Good to see you guys, bye.

Tom: [00:30:12] Bye.

DL Rossi: [00:30:15] Hi, my name is DL Rossi and this is my song 'With Two Feet'. It speaks to the random nature of life and the lessons that I've learned from just being able to show up and work through things as they come. There's this fallacy that we're taught, especially when we're young, that being prepared for our future is the most important thing that we can really do. And yeah, sure, we should do our best to grow and become people who are well rounded, who push to learn and to know themselves more. But the goal of those spiritual, personal and artistic ventures should not be to be prepared. They should be to know yourself. More often than not, I find myself totally unprepared for what's ahead of me. But once I kind of start moving and head into it, whatever it is that's before me, I discover that I have everything that I need within myself. And that's what this song is about. I hope you enjoy it.

Clay: [00:35:18] So there you go, another episode of Outrage + Optimism. DL Rossi folks, that's some music from the great state of Michigan, 'With Two Feet' is the name of his song and a treasure trove of great weekend listening, you know, autumnal playlist building is waiting for you. Links in the show notes to check out more from DL Rossi. Highly recommend starting with the top five popular on Spotify, you know, I trust the collective wisdom of the people, but since I personally know DL and have been listening to his music for the greater part of two decades now, 'Great Lakes State Line', 'Figuring It Out, 'Suckers In The Chumps', 'Worked Up'. All right, now I'm overloading you at this point, I realize. Links in the show notes to begin your listening journey with my good friend, Mr DL Rossi. Thanks man, for letting us spin your music on the podcast this week. I actually need to call him after this, because all of our listeners are going to demand that he goes on a world tour, and I need to start begging him that he'll take me with him when he goes, we'll see you on tour. Okay, Earthshot Prize awards are happening. And the big question is, where can I watch? It's playing on TV, like on a TV channel across the UK and the USA on Sunday, November 12th. In Singapore, Australia and New Zealand on Monday, November 13th.

Clay: [00:36:56] And it will also on Sunday at 5:20 p.m. GMT, be available on the Earthshot Prize YouTube channel. So for those of you who want to watch on TV, times are subject to change. And so I just want to make sure that you check the website in the show notes or your local listings for the most updated information, but you can always watch on the YouTube channel when it comes out. And yeah, I don't know the run of show, but I'm hoping Christiana does like a song and dance number this year. I'm not going to miss it. And as Tom mentioned earlier in the episode, do check out the Earthshot Prize online, Instagram, Twitter, etcetera. They are doing a phenomenal job covering what's happening, and it's a total breath of fresh air on these two often cynical and doomy platforms. So as always, links below. Okay, that's everything for this week. Next week, as of right now, our episode will be coming out on Friday, so don't panic if it's not out on Thursday. We'll see you on Friday. Okay, see you then.