284: Inside Costa Rica’s Climate Fight: Can the nation hold on to its green ideas?

Paul: [00:17:06] Know where I'm going with this is I had the good fortune this morning to prep for this conversation with a Costa Rican. And she's a scientist, and she was actually saying that it's the sequences. You look after the people first. So actually, it's all those decades ago saying we're going to put the money into education that then prepares the population and gives them the capacity to be able to appreciate nature. But then what was also fascinating. She said people then from all over the world want to come to Costa Rica and experience this amazing kind of biological success story, and then that's a reinforcing force politically. The people here, even if they don't travel the world, they see people from the world come here saying, you've got such a marvellous country. So there is actually a positive feedback loop that helps to embed these policies.

Christiana: [00:17:50] Well, not just positive feedback loop, revenue loop.

Paul: [00:17:53] Revenue.

Christiana: [00:17:53] Loop. That is the important thing, right? Because we don't have any minerals, we don't have fossil fuels, we don't have metals, we don't have anything other than the nature that is above ground and in the ocean. And so we figured out many, many decades ago that if we want to have a reliable income, we need to take care of nature so that people will come here as eco tourists and leave their money here in the country. So it's the revenue again, right? Just like the payment for environmental services, if there's no revenue, it's not going to happen. If there's no revenue from eco tourism, it's not going to happen. Costa Rica has 5 million people in population. We're up to 2 million in eco tourists every year because people want to come. Everyone except Paul Dickinson.

Christiana: [00:18:40] Oh I want to come to see flora and fauna.

Paul: [00:18:44] I'm not actually adverse to eating a Costa Rican pineapple, which is of a different caliber. Anyone in Europe who's ever eaten a pineapple, you haven't really eaten a pineapple. The other thing I would just say in passing is there are other things like high value products, things like coffee or whatever. And because of the great story of Costa Rica and the pride and the Costa Rican brand, people know that's kind of Fairtrade coffee made without slavery or whatever, and people pay a premium for that. So although it's primarily tourism, there are other spin off economic advantages.

Tom: [00:19:09] I mean, it's interesting what you just said there about the revenue. Christiana. And so, so. First of all, we should acknowledge and listeners will think, okay, that's great. But those 2 million people needed to come on planes to get to Costa Rica. And that may have other impacts. So just just acknowledging that and that everything in a complicated world has other impacts. But also what's interesting to me about the story you just told is over decades, these pieces being put in place that then lead to a change in mindset of people, which is driven by the change in revenue. And then when you see the success, you feel proud of it, and then you begin to become a custodian and you get this positive feedback loop going. But it does make you weep a little for the quality of public leadership around the world. Because actually, in the UK, if a Prime Minister stood up and said, you know what we're going to do, we're going to tax fossil fuels and put the money into nature recovery. Maybe I'm being too shortsighted not to see it. It would be so hard to make something like that stick, because the media would push back. The fossil fuel companies would push back. There would be many, many winners, but some losers and those losers would form the basis of the media narrative. And it's just such a shame we're unable to do big things because of the system we've created around our politics. And the story of Costa Rica demonstrates what's possible.

Paul: [00:20:14] And the tragedy of thinking through why it won't work before you've even started.

Tom: [00:20:17] Well, the good point exactly.

Christiana: [00:20:20] Well, the question that arises for me is, would this be possible in Costa Rica today?

Tom: [00:20:25] So that's a good.

Christiana: [00:20:26] Question.

Christiana: [00:20:26] And I'm not quite sure that it would be because, as you say, this is a historical legacy that has been, you know, building onto itself and we're very proud, bio literate people, right? We consider ourselves that we have bio literacy in addition to ABC in math, but 30% of our territory is under national park or reserves. Actually, by the way, we're actually very close to one of the very first natural parks or reserves, as they're called. And since then we've put 30% of our territory into it. But this is in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s what would happen today if we said, we're going to institute a carbon tax and we're going to put 30% of our land? Yeah, I am not sure that that would be possible today.

Tom: [00:21:14] Yeah. That's a really interesting analysis.

Paul: [00:21:16] That you do having that incredibly renewable grid. That's that's a historical thing. I guess there's a lot of hydro. Is it.

Christiana: [00:21:21] It's a lot of hydro. It's geothermal and it's wind.

Paul: [00:21:25] Wow. And then now just a little modern update a lot of electric vehicles I guess people trying to avoid that carbon tax. But also it just makes sense. Investment in the ChargePoint infrastructure, right?

Christiana: [00:21:34] Yeah. We have the best electric infrastructure in the whole continent. Wow. Because the Institute of Electricity has a little office in every single little town, and they have charge points. So we have charge points everywhere. And per capita, we have the highest deployment of electric vehicles because people are avoiding the car.

Paul: [00:21:55] Yeah. No, of course.

Christiana: [00:21:56] Because electric vehicles don't pay an import tax. And because we've all figured out is much better for maintenance. Et cetera. Et cetera, etc.. And our electricity is clean. So our electric vehicles are using clean energy in addition to the fact that they're using electricity. But it's clean electricity, which is not the case in most countries.

Tom: [00:22:17] I mean, what you pointed to that I think is really interesting is the benefit of the inertia once the thinking changes, because this has been instituted for so long. Costa Ricans will defend that and they will.

Christiana: [00:22:25] Hold on to.

Tom: [00:22:26] Defend that. I mean, where I live, just near Dartmoor, Dartmoor is a destroyed landscape in the south of England, and people will defend the destroyed state of it because that's what they're used to.

Paul: [00:22:34] Lack of eco literacy.

Tom: [00:22:36] Interesting alternate perspective based on where you are. But what I would love to ask. I mean, you just said you're not sure whether this leap forward could be made today. Could it still be lost? There was a presidential election that happened two years ago. The current president is not of this mindset.

Christiana: [00:22:52] Yeah, a very, very strange election. Basically a completely unknown person elected to to be president. Yeah. He has he has wanted to overturn a lot of the environmental legacy that Costa Rica has nurtured and grown for decades. The first thing where it was very evident is all of a sudden, he was interested in seeing if Costa Rica could drill for oil and gas. Years ago there were there was some exploration and there seems to be some fossil fuel. But oil fields need to be a certain minimum of size and potential in order to be commercially exploitable. And that is what is unknown. Yes, we have a little bit.

Christiana: [00:23:41] And can.

Tom: [00:23:41] It be recovered.

Christiana: [00:23:42] Or can it be commercially recovered. And of course, that's where the timing really comes in. Because Costa Rica drilled for oil 30, 40 years ago. It might have made sense because there was still a growing demand, global demand. But today there is a decreasing demand for oil and gas. And furthermore, we have fossil fuel reserves for 50 years of oil and gas use. Should we use all the reserves confirmed reserves? I see that there are around the world.

Christiana: [00:24:11] That's more than.

Christiana: [00:24:11] Enough. So it doesn't make any sense. You don't start exploring for unknown potential. It just doesn't make any sense in a situation in which there is a decreasing demand. Have we done it again 30 or 40 years ago? It might have made sense.

Paul: [00:24:29] Industries of the future. You know, oil, asbestos, tobacco. You know, that's what everyone stopped doing or will soon.

Christiana: [00:24:36] Stop doing.

Christiana: [00:24:36] It. Exactly.

Tom: [00:24:37] But, I mean, it feels like. And obviously, this guy is is not understanding the best interests of the country, but it feels like the environmental legacy and mindset of the country is secure. Or are you worried that this will create a more profound change in Costa Rica if he gets.

Christiana: [00:24:52] What you.

Christiana: [00:24:52] Want? I don't think so. I don't think that this is going to take root. Yeah, because it is so against the national ethos. Yeah, it is so against the national ethos. That is just it is not going to take root.

Paul: [00:25:05] Yeah. Eco literacy. You called it I think that's just a concept I've never really heard of before, but it's profound.

Tom: [00:25:10] Christiana, it's so interesting to hear your perspective on Costa Rica. I mean, really, no one has more of a deep understanding of where this country has come from and the challenges it's facing. But I wonder, is there any other voice we should bring? I mean, who else from your many friends in this country, do you think we should talk to you to get a different perspective?

Christiana: [00:25:25] Well, there's so few Costa Ricans, right? We all know each other. I happen to know a handful of ex-presidents who have been friends for many years.

Christiana: [00:25:36] So.

Tom: [00:25:36] So from amongst your roster of ex-presidents, is there one that springs to mind?

Christiana: [00:25:39] Yes.

Christiana: [00:25:39] I think we should call President Lewis.

Tom: [00:25:43] Aha. Okay. He was the. Was he in power during Paris or.

Christiana: [00:25:46] He was 2014, 2018.

Christiana: [00:25:50] That's why.

Tom: [00:25:50] Okay, great.

Christiana: [00:25:51] He was in.

Christiana: [00:25:52] Paris.

Tom: [00:25:52] He was in Paris. Why didn't you speak to him? And then we will pick up afterwards and reflect on what he said.

Christiana: [00:25:57] Okay. I'll give him a ring. President Solís, thank you very much for joining us here on Outrage and Optimism. You and I have known each other for longer than I would want to think. In fact, even way before you became president, 2014 to 2018. And you are one of the most studious people of the history of Costa Rica that I know, in addition to being one of our best political leaders. Collectors. So the question is. The environmental legacy that has been constructed in Costa Rica over so many decades that we're so proud of and frankly, that has made us so famous in other countries. Is it under threat right now?

President Luis Guillermo Solís: [00:26:43] Well, thank you very much, Christiana. I'm really honored to be on your podcast, and I wish we had known each other for longer, because for me, your friendship, your guidance, your counsel has always been an inspiration. Yes. I think that, unfortunately, Costa Rica's legacy in the environmental protection and intelligent use of natural resources is at risk. We are being threatened by the policies, the lack of vision, the lack of will of our current government, which is to be blamed for what could be the beginning of a very dangerous slope for our environmental policies. And I say this very conscientious of the fact that making that assertion may sound too partisan, but no government in the last 40 years has done as much damage or has announced that it's willing to do as much damage as the administration of Rodrigo Chaves has done to the environmental culture of the country. And you are right. What we have is the result of at least 150 years of sustained policies and decision making processes that have favored the environment. And this started the very end of the 19th century, with the president protecting water sources, drinking water sources for what was going to become the most habitable populated part of the country to the environment, being included as a constitutional right in our most important law. And and furthermore, with current efforts on decarbonization and others, that meant reforestation. That meant policies of creating national parks and conservation areas. I mean, it's it's a huge bunch of policies that took us more than a century to develop, and in less than two and a half years, the current government has abandoned much of what was on the way. It has announced its willingness to do things that we had forsaken and thought would not come back to the imagination of any politician, like the exploitation of petroleum gas through fracking and the destruction or the use of protected areas for private purposes. I mean, the fact that this culture of environmental responsibility is being put at risk makes us think that the vulnerability of those policies and that legacy is truly something that could happen in the short term.

Christiana: [00:29:07] So this government still has two years to go. What what do we do? Presidents always do. We hold our nose and wait for this to be over. Do we engage in bottom up local protection of our environmental rights. Do we sit and pray for a better government to come in two years? What do we do?

President Luis Guillermo Solís: [00:29:33] All of the above. The first thing is organized to try to get this government out, and to prevent any of its successors to continue ruling after the next elections in a year and a half. Thankfully, not two years, but a year and a half. That's not a small challenge, because this government has many other populist regimes throughout Latin America, and other parts of the world will not be willing to depart easily. So organizing politically, that means mobilization of political parties, of territorial leaderships, etc., is something that's taking a lot of time, a lot of difficulties. Plus the fact that there are ideological divides that have fragmented the Costa Rican society and which have been furthered by the government. I mean, they know that breaking down the national consensus on issues as important as the environment, but also public education and public health are essential to its proposals for the future, which certainly are threatening our stability, our social stability, our political stability. I would I would argue that it's not only the environment, but a whole bunch of issues that have united us and and made of Costa Rica, a world example. But undoubtedly this is not only a political issue, this has to mobilize a civil society. This requires the best of us as a nation to come up through the organization of communal links, the organization of nonpartisan groups which are being formed, in fact, to defend the country against petroleum exploitation, gas exploitation, for example, and obviously the strengthening of our legal system, too, because even when one would not like to think that only legislative and or legal repression is necessary to maintain some of this. It is also true that the violation of the law. Is a very persistent way of breaking down the national consensus on the on the environment. So we have to ensure that those legal and judicial instruments at hand, including upholding the constitutional right to a safe environment, are continue to be a most important instrument for social action against the destruction of our environmental legacy.

Christiana: [00:31:50] It's such an important point because Costa Rica prides itself of being a country of the rule of law. That is our army, right? We don't have an army. If we're invaded, we go to the courts. And the rule of law has been the backbone of this country for so many years, and even that is now being weakened.

President Luis Guillermo Solís: [00:32:10] It is, and it continues to be weakened. I mean, this is not only a matter of the government putting an end to a number of policies that were necessary to continue the development of environmental, educational. Health issues that that required long term vision. But it's also the very clear attempt on the part of of these leaderships of pushing back on what we had accomplished so far. And this is what worries me. There seems to be an intention not only to stop, but to reverse policies in certain areas. And clearly the environment is one of them. That sedimentation of policies is absolutely necessary to move on. I mean, it's not a question of inventing and reinventing things all the time. You have to have a steady, gradual, but permanent effort proactively supported by the state to move on. It requires resources as well, which this government is also curtailing, which I must say is one of the most damaging factors that is affecting our environmental structures because we are losing the financial resources that are necessary to keep up with our national parks and pay the rangers and protect the research. I mean, we have to uphold the law. Understand the consequences, the long term consequences of losing our environmental leadership throughout the world, and the very negative impact that this could have the world over. I mean, after all, because of the conditions, the natural conditions of this country, we are a very tiny part of the world, but we have a tremendous responsibility in guarding and keeping a lot of its biodiversity. So it is a global responsibility that we are also in the process or in the need to preserve.

Christiana: [00:33:56] President, thank you so much for joining us here. Thank you for taking time out of your weekend to join us. Very much. Appreciate it.

President Luis Guillermo Solís: [00:34:05] My pleasure. Have a good one.

Tom: [00:34:11] Christiana is so fun that you can just call up the next president of your country, who happens to be a personal friend, and go even deeper into the analysis of what's happening to Costa Rica. I've got to say, I left that little discussion that I was listening into. Even more worried about what's happening here. What about you?

Christiana: [00:34:26] Well, I must say, every time he made a point, I was thinking of Trump.

Christiana: [00:34:32] Yeah.

Christiana: [00:34:32] This is such a page out of Trump, right? The rollback of environmental policies, the populism, the irresponsibility. It really has become a contagious disease.

Paul: [00:34:44] I think the entire world needs to settle around the Costa Rican issue. No oil and gas exploration in Costa Rica. It's insane. Yes, it may be that the oil and gas industry can take over the United States of America, but they cannot mess up the most wonderful country in the world. And I just think we could make a test case here. We could make an example. Not welcome.

Tom: [00:35:05] But what I took from that is that actually his clear indication that 150 years of sustained policy and decision making in a positive direction are under threat in this current situation. And the other thing I took is he talked a little bit about, you know, as the institutions that protect the decisions you've made in the past begin to erode and you lose the mechanisms that keep them in place, the revenue streams, actually, things can unravel quite quickly. I thought that that was a lesson here and a lesson for other countries where, as you say, they're also facing similar threats.

Christiana: [00:35:35] Yeah. I mean, he he was pretty clear in saying that many of these threats have been announced.

Tom: [00:35:43] Yeah. That's true.

Christiana: [00:35:43] Right.

Christiana: [00:35:44] So so this president has been there for two and a half years and a dog barks louder than it bites. Yeah. And I think on many issues this has been the case, but it is still so anathema to who we are and who we have been and who we want to continue to be. Frankly, I find it insulting. Yeah, I find it insulting to the ethos of this country. And he gets away with it.

Paul: [00:36:10] Yeah, but the extraordinary thing about the global Costa Rica, the global Costa Rica. When Queen Elizabeth II died, Emmanuel Macron said to you she was your queen. But to us, she was the Queen. I think, you know, you think of the environmental success of Costa Rica, but it's our environmental success. The whole world celebrates the success of Costa Rica, and that's why it's so critical that these protests fail.

Christiana: [00:36:34] Yeah.

Tom: [00:36:34] But I really feel for you. I mean, I know what that's like when your country does something where you look around and think, I don't know this place in the way that I thought I did. I mean, that happened to me very much with Brexit. I know when Trump first got in in the US, people were like, actually, this country is a different place to what I thought it was. And, and in those moments that needs to be galvanizing to fight. I thought your question to him on what do we do was great. And his response. You know, nonpartisan groups need to step up and need to come further forward. We need to strengthen the legal system, strengthen the rule of law. There are things we can do in that context, but people all over the world are struggling with these political shifts that move away from our values, said yep.

Paul: [00:37:11] Yeah, it's good to be concerned, but we have nothing to fear but fear itself. So let's just stay concerned, focused and effective.

Tom: [00:37:18] Thank you. So obviously Costa Rica is a unique case. And we've talked many times about how much we love it. But there's a lot of countries around the world that are in interesting positions at the moment in leadership on climate. So I think it would be a great opportunity for us, particularly in the lead up to Brazil, to do a few more deep dives on what's happening in different places around the world. So we might get into that as the year progresses. And listeners, if there are particular countries and you're just thinking, wow, how did they do that or what is happening in that country, let us know and we will. We may not travel there, but we'll do a deep dive on the country. So I mean, Christiana, thank you so much for telling us this story. We love your country. Yeah. It's amazing.

Paul: [00:37:52] Millions of people around the world love this country. And I think it's a kind of castle on the hill. It's a dream. It's a flag. It's a it's a possibility. You know, the little nation that could. And I think Costa Rica is not just an amazing country. And that's an amazing story you've told. So thank you, Christiana. But I also think it's particularly with regard for this ecosystem services policy. It's a proof. It's like a research and development department for the future of the world. And that, I think, is the true genius of Costa Rica.

Tom: [00:38:21] Yeah. If you were to say Latin American country with no resources, low forest cover, challenging democratic environment 60, 70 years ago to now have higher quality of life than most countries around the world, a baby born today in Costa Rica is expected to live longer than a baby born in the United States. Incredible levels of income and affluence, great quality of life.

Christiana: [00:38:41] And we're quite often at the top of the World Happiness Index. Why? Because of the absence of an army. Our peace principles and closeness to nature.

Christiana: [00:38:53] Yeah.

Paul: [00:38:54] Yeah. I mean, really, who knew? Happiness. The kind of point of a country life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Got it right in Costa Rica.

Tom: [00:39:00] There you go. Thank you. Christiana. And thanks for listening, everyone. We'll see you next week.

Christiana: [00:39:05] Bye bye. Hey.