259: Live! From Climate Week NYC with Mission 2025

Paul Dickinson: [00:01:54] I can't promise that. But I can say it's indicative, you know, it costs money to come here right. And people are here for a reason. The US business system loves to sort of aggregate itself and and to plan and to plot, US business, US investors are gearing up for something big. They can smell it, they can taste it. They're doing it and they're going to get it right I think in many regards, as they have done before with digital tech.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:02:18] Yeah. It's been a really interesting climate week. I mean I'd say a few sort of observations, the evidence for the economic case is now just so completely overwhelming. And we've heard that again and again in so many rooms with businesses now transforming, reducing their emissions and saving money of companies, of countries, of investors. That case that I think we tried to make for so many years is now well and truly there. But I also think that there's something, you know, obviously regular listeners will know that this Climate Week is important for many reasons, but not least because it provides the political momentum that leads us into the COPs this year and next year. And and there's been some good signals. There was the pact of the future that came at the beginning of the week, that talks about a lot around finance, a bit around fossil fuels. That was interesting. And I, I don't know about you, but I've been in a lot of meetings, round tables with ministers, with heads of international organizations and some of them, I have to say, the meetings that I was at where there was a combination of government representatives, with business, with investors, with mayors, really had a lot of energy, and they really pointed to the fact that actually these players are coming together and finding new solutions. But the meetings that I've been in that have been just with ministers, I have to say my observation is that people have been a bit lost. They haven't quite known how to now take the next step. I think the political context in many countries is providing a lot of headwinds. That's not necessarily enabling people to move as fast as they would like, and they're really looking for new solutions. So, so yeah, just a few observations of the week. I mean, generally I agree with you, but I also feel nervous about some of the political momentum to take the next step.

Paul Dickinson: [00:04:02] I love what you just said, Tom, because it fits sort of exactly with what I've been taking, maybe from a slightly different angle. There's a phrase I'm going to say something slightly rude. You've got to forgive me, but I believe that the era of turd polishing is gone, right. We are no longer going to sort of improve the wonderful lacquer upon this turd and and just precisely polish it up to the what we're going to do. And what I sense people are doing is they are flattening obstacles and they are, you know, removing them and getting things done. And that can only really be achieved with this collaboration. Just as you described the transition plans for the companies, the NDCs and the governments, they're all kind of coming together. And and, you know, it takes a long time, but I think we have to sort of celebrate it and hold that sense that we can do this. And success breeds success. You know, the suffragette many times said that the the suffragette motto that's on the the, in Parliament Square says courage speaks to courage everywhere. But I think, problem solving in climate change speaks to problem solving on climate change everywhere there's something lifting. There's a tide lifting all the boats here.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:05:09] Absolutely, absolutely. Okay, so I think we can now go to our main event, which is our live recording. So this was recorded, at the glass House in New York yesterday, as I said, with several hundred people in attendance. It was a lot of fun. I think we.

Paul Dickinson: [00:05:24] It was brilliant, I mean, I wish we could have them, can we not also record always with those 600 people, it's not practical.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:05:30] I don't, well, I mean, well we can find out. Maybe people would like to come and live in New York with you and have an endless climate week. I'm not sure that would be universally popular.

Paul Dickinson: [00:05:36] Yes, yes, Christiana in not going to vote for that.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:05:37] Christiana is not going to vote for that, she's not she's not. So just before we turn to that, one other thing to say, this is going to be a two episode week, tomorrow, no Friday, today's Wednesday, we're going to be sitting down with David Lammy, the UK foreign secretary, to go through his ambitious climate plans. The speech he gave setting out his policies, centralising climate and nature into UK foreign policy. So that will be with you in a couple of days. And the other thing I should tell you is that during this very fun live podcast, we had these big screens that told everyone who our guests were. So we didn't take a long time to explain who everybody was. So I'm just going to read you now the list of people that we interviewed, and it's a long list, but they're short conversations. Brilliant people.

Paul Dickinson: [00:06:23] And they're brilliant people. Who was there, Tom?

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:06:24] Okay, so here we go. Simon Stiell, executive secretary of the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change. Jennifer Morgan, the special envoy for international climate action for Germany, Professor Tim Lenton of earth system science at the University of Exeter. Veena Balakrishnan, a political scientist and intersectional environmentalist and co-founder of the Youth Negotiators Academy. Okay, just just keep breathing. We're going through them, there's a few more to go. Okay, thank you, thank you.

Paul Dickinson: [00:06:52] You're doing a fantastic job, I'm mesmerized by your televisual skills.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:06:55] Okay. Renata Koch Alvarenga, whose disaster risk financing specialist at the World Bank. Vaishali Nigam Sinha, a co-founder of ReNew. Günther Thallinger, a member of the board of Management of Allianz and also driving force behind the Asset Owners Alliance.

Paul Dickinson: [00:07:11] Chair of, chair of.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:07:12] Chair of. Thank you. Peter Bakker, the president and CEO of the World Business Council for Sustainable Development. Helen Clarkson, chief executive of the climate Group.

Paul Dickinson: [00:07:21] Our hosts this week.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:07:21] Our hosts. Ana Toni, national secretary for climate change, the Ministry of Environment and Climate Change in Brazil, and Nigar Arpadarai, climate change high level champion for COP 29. So how is that for.

Paul Dickinson: [00:07:35] It's almost easier for you to list the people who weren't there, we basically had like the the top club.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:07:39] The top club, all of those names are in the show notes. If you're at all confused about who anyone is during this, just refer to the show notes. We introduce them by name. Please enjoy. This will give you a real sense of where we are at the end of Climate Week. We did this big arc. The event was about Mission 2025, which is a collective effort to get us back on track and close the gap to 1.5. This event, and so many others like it throughout the week really took us strongly in that direction. So enjoy! We'll be back. We'll see you towards the end of this week with David Lammy. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.

Paul Dickinson: [00:08:12] Bye.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:08:16] Hello and welcome to Outrage + Optimism. I'm Tom Rivett-Carnac.

Christiana Figueres: [00:08:19] I'm still Christiana Figueres.

Paul Dickinson: [00:08:21] And I'm Paul Dickinson.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:08:22] And we're coming to you live from New York climate week. All right, thank you. It's lovely to see you. We love you. We really appreciate it. Now, the next 45 minutes are going to be a whistle stop tour of everything that's been happening as we build momentum in this most critical of weeks. It's been an amazing week in many ways. We've seen the pact of the future. We've seen incredible momentum. The evidence for economic transformation is everywhere. But there's also this sense of nervousness. We know that time is running on and we're not yet where we need to be. So what do you think of this week so far?

Christiana Figueres: [00:08:56] Do you want the politically correct answer or do you want the real answer?

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:08:59] We want the Christiana answer.

Christiana Figueres: [00:09:00] That would be the real answer.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:09:01] Okay.

Christiana Figueres: [00:09:02] Okay. So you two know me well enough to know that I don't really do like big things with lots of people and dinners and all of that. That's just not my thing. So my preference, of course, is to have one on one conversations where I can actually be listening to the person who's speaking. So that is not exactly the definition of Climate Week. Would you agree. Now, what I was thinking is this is a really interesting place to go to pick up the new lingo that is developing here in the community. And I remembered this morning that the first time that I ever heard the word intersectionality was here at a Climate Week. I don't know how many years ago, but did you or do you also remember hearing it here for the first time, being used on different stages, or did you hear it elsewhere, heard it here? Well, this morning I was given another new word that apparently is like the word in Climate Week. BioFi. Oh, I'm so glad, so.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:10:08] You're ahead of the curve, Christiana.

Christiana Figueres: [00:10:10] It is new to you too, right. Okay, well, I will spill the beans later about what BioFi is, but just make sure that you know what it means before you leave New York, because otherwise you're going to fail the test of Climate Week. Okay.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:10:23] You're not telling us what it is?

Christiana Figueres: [00:10:25] No not yet.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:10:25] All right. Okay. Well, everyone can Google it, and then they'll know.

Christiana Figueres: [00:10:27] Google it.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:10:28] All right, yeah. PD?

Paul Dickinson: [00:10:29] What can I say, I mean, it's so energizing to be at Climate Week. I'm so sorry that you're in the world's largest gathering of a million, billion, trillion people and it's not the ideal place but it's great the energy. However, context, we know extreme weather, everyone's got the memo. Billions of people around the world. You know that joke. Like, if it's true in reality, it must be true in theory. So we've got every reason to sort of have an understanding. And yesterday I heard a definition of optimism from Jacinda Ardern. She said it was maintaining expectations. And that's a choice right.

Christiana Figueres: [00:11:03] Despite failures.

Paul Dickinson: [00:11:05] Despite failures.

Christiana Figueres: [00:11:06] That's the important part.

Paul Dickinson: [00:11:07] Maintaining expectations despite failures.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:11:10] Okay.

Paul Dickinson: [00:11:10] It's a choice, but it's also a duty. And I think the Mission 2025 is perfectly expressing that with a collaboration of the energy of subnational governments and corporations and investors and scientists and youth getting together, pulling their sleeves up.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:11:30] That's a strong look, by the way, isn't it.

Christiana Figueres: [00:11:31] There you go.

Paul Dickinson: [00:11:32] Working on fixing stuff, which is the next iteration. So that's my climate week.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:11:37] Very good, I love it. Okay, so we are now going to go.

Christiana Figueres: [00:11:40] What's yours?

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:11:40] Mine. Well I said I mean it's like the best of times and the worst of times. It's so often the case, right. I mean, that beautiful first line of of A Tale of Two Cities. If you look at the momentum, the pact of the future, all these things that came out of this. I've been in so many rooms where you talk about this, the exponential curve, right, which everyone's doing all the time about this transformation that's unfolding. And if you're not paying attention to what's happening to people around the world to extreme weather, well, if you're not concerned about it, you're not paying attention. So both are happening at the same time. Now we're going to introduce our first speaker, who's the only one who stands here and actually gives remarks. After that we're going to talk to people. And this person has been described to me three times this week as having the most difficult job in the world, but Christiana, is being executive secretary of the UNFCCC really that hard?

Christiana Figueres: [00:12:30] Oh it's a piece of cake. So we are thrilled to have Simon Stiell here, but I have to tell you, one of my least favourite moments in the build up to Paris was having to go to today, King Charles, then Prince Charles to tell him in person, majesty, I am so sorry that you will only have three minutes to address the plenary in Paris. To which he responded, but you know that I have prepared a 13 minute speech. I knew that that's why I went to tell him that he only had three minutes. And I also knew that he had practiced the 13 minutes. So the next 20 minutes were convincing him why he had to actually cut it down. And I asked for Simon's forgiveness, because I've had to do it again just five minutes ago until Simon, you don't have a whole six minutes. Can you cut it down. So, Simon, where is he, I beg for your forgiveness. But you're in good company with King Charles.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:13:35] Simon Stiell, executive secretary of the UNFCCC.

 Simon Stiell: [00:13:42] Thank you very much. I'm certainly, certainly not King Charles. So if he can do it, I'm sure I should be able to give it a good shot. But, Christiana, Tom, thank you very much for the opportunity to be with you all today. And today's discussion about ambition loops is more timely than ever. And it's not just timely, it's absolutely essential. These ambition loops are where government leadership meets real economy transformation. Done well, the plans, the NDCs, which are at the heart of what is being asked of parties this year and next year, done well, these plans will be powerful blueprints for stronger economies and societies. They're the most important policy documents of this century, because they will be key determinants in whether economies flounder amid spiraling climate impacts or flourish by riding the epic wave of global decarbonization, bringing every sector on board. To get there, we need an ABC of NDCs, where A is for ambitious new emission targets that are economy wide, covering all greenhouse gases and keeping 1.5 alive. B is by being broken down into sectors and gases. And C they have to be credible. Speaking to substantive regulations, laws and the funding to ensure that these goals are actually implemented this time round. So done right, these plans can unlock the greatest transformation of the global economy that we've ever seen a real opportunity which makes it among the greatest commercial opportunities of our time.

 Simon Stiell: [00:16:02] Something no investor, certainly no politician, should choose to ignore. The dividends for businesses, investors, subnational governments are monumental, but they're only just starting to flow and only flowing to some, it's clear that many vulnerable and developing countries are being deprived and are being held back. That's why major progress on climate finance is so urgently needed, both at COP 29, in Baku, as well as outside of the COP process. This is where your role is so incredibly important on two fronts. First and foremost, making the case to governments of why bold is entirely in their own interests because of the huge benefits for their economies and people. And those opportunities are for the taking. With stronger growth and productivity, more jobs, higher wages, better quality jobs, less pollution, better health, more affordable and secure energy, more stability and equality and empowerment for women. On both the supply side and the demand side we need stronger, more consistent policies that simply cannot be ignored. New data released today shows how better policies can unlock a tsunami of investments. And secondly, I urge you to keep thinking bigger and to go beyond think bigger in terms of what credible and ambitious transition plans can deliver. In terms of business transformation, seizing early mover advantages, empowering your people, unlocking new markets and growth potential.

 Simon Stiell: [00:18:08] And go beyond by working right across your supply chains, including SMEs. SMEs are the quiet powerhouse of almost every G20 economy, with carbon footprints and climate vulnerabilities to match. So bring in SMEs from the margins of climate action into the centre can be a game changer, which will pay huge dividends at all levels, individuals, local, national and global. So I'm wrapping up here. So going beyond also applies to your advocacy. Many businesses here at Climate Week have a global footprint. And it's G20 economies that most need are needed to move the fastest. Where you can open doors, I urge you to do so raising the volume privately or publicly or both. Just make noise. It's essential if we are to get climate action back to the top of the political agenda. I know many in this room are already industry leaders, so I commend you for your tireless efforts, and I urge you to take them to the next level and to bring others along with you. So yes, tackling the challenge is crucial, but so too is telegraphing your successes. Show your peers and your policymakers that bold climate action is good for everybody's business. So, Christiana, I hope that shrunk this down to maybe a little over three minutes, but thank you. All right.

Christiana Figueres: [00:20:04] Thank you very much, Simon. Really appreciate that. Jennifer, can I invite you up? There you are. Jennifer, you used to sit on the other side of all of this conversation on the civil society side, and you're now on the government side. We've just heard from Simon that he thinks that governments need to hear much more noise. From your side, sitting in the government seat, what kind of noise message signal do governments need to hear to do what Simon has just said, the ABC. What do you need to hear?

Jennifer Morgan: [00:20:40] We need to hear about how the impacts the climate crisis are impacting your supply chains. But I would say I want to be specific about the we. The finance ministers, we need you to be engaging with your finance ministers, your economic ministers, your heads of state. What does the climate crisis, the impacts that are happening now mean for your supply chains and your ability to deliver. Number two, we need you to come in and say, you know, I want to come and invest. Germany, we had a 64% increase in investment in renewable energy in one year last year, right. And that is also why we heard we need long, loud legal signals for that kind of investment. So we need your voices with economic ministers, with heads of state to say it's in our interest. We want to come and invest, but we need those clear signals in those national climate plans, those NDCs. And I would say, third, we need you on the halls of in the halls of Parliament. We need you in not only in your boardrooms. We need you in the heads of state rooms. We need you in our public media. We need you in our public debates to bring these voices in. Because I know we're here about optimism, Christiana. But it's a battle and we know it. And last year we had a win. We had a transition away from fossil fuels and a tripling of renewables and a doubling of efficiency. That woke a few people up to say, aha, it is happening. And now they're pushing back hard. So we have to be louder. We have to be clear, we have to build power. And that's why we need you.

Christiana Figueres: [00:22:21] Thank you Jennifer. You've heard it. Tim, Tim, could I invite you, you just heard what Jennifer defines as policy. From your research, what else is needed on the policy side to actually accelerate what we need? Is that going to be enough?

Tim Lenton: [00:22:45] In simple terms, Christiana, we need decisive mandates for the end of fossil fuel technologies that are going to be the crucial thing to stimulate the clean technologies we need, and particularly the positive tipping points.

Christiana Figueres: [00:22:59] You have to define what decisive mandates, because there are many countries that would interpret that in quite a variety of ways.

Tim Lenton: [00:23:05] So to be clear, we're talking about in a study we launched yesterday, we're talking about phase out of coal power stations in developed nations by 2035 and in developing nations by 2045. We're talking about mandating no petrol and diesel car sales from 2035. We're talking about mandating all heating appliances for buildings being heat pumps from 2035, and all trucks to be electric powered from 2040. Because it's these kind of decisive mandates that are the most effective at stimulating the innovation, the learning by doing, the economies of scale, the crucial amplifying feedbacks that create the self-propelling change that we need to halve greenhouse gas emissions within the remaining five and a bit years of this decade.

Christiana Figueres: [00:23:52] So basically you're recommending an expiration date. You're saying governments should come out here and say this is the expiration date for using fossil fuels in cars. This is the expiration date for using fossil fuels in trucks in in the power sector. That is what you want. You want clear expiration dates. Some countries are already doing that.

Tim Lenton: [00:24:12] Absolutely Christiana. But it's as you said it yesterday, we need to take the stabilisers off. These are mature technologies. We know they're better, cleaner, healthier alternatives. We need decisive leadership to set that clear path. We're not saying that subsidies and taxes aren't also playing a role and aren't effective, but what we are able to show is that these are the tipping points that these policies will trigger reinforce each other. So batteries that come out of electric vehicles and go onto the grid, they reinforce the tipping point to renewable power and so on. And we need those cascades of positive tipping points to have any hope of the acceleration in action we need to halve those greenhouse gas emissions in five and a bit years.

Christiana Figueres: [00:24:55] So since I'm no longer executive secretary right, I can now move into even more, unpolitically correct language. And it just strikes me, and I shared this with you yesterday, Tim, that the fact is that over the past nine and a half, almost ten years since the Paris Agreement, since we have a very clear decarbonization goal, net zero by 2050. Governments as a whole, what they've been doing is they have been putting training wheels on the decarbonization effort. And thanks to the training wheels, we now know how to decarbonize the power sector. That's the one that is using less support of your feet. We now know how to decarbonize the light transport, even the heavy transport getting to other sectors. But the problem is, if we continue to use the training wheels, we're not going to learn how to ride the bike properly. So it's time to take the training wheels off. And only governments can do that. Only governments can move from subsidies and incentives and all of that to clear mandates. Is that what we're saying?

Tim Lenton: [00:26:07] That's certainly what we're saying. But remember, we the people can give a popular mandate to leaders to show the resolution they're going to need to resist the lobbying that's going to try to erode those decisive mandates. And we the companies are already some of you, thank you out there making the coalitions that are committing to buy 100% or make 100% renewable energy, 100% EV fleets, those sends clear signals and they set up a feedback loop between the bottom up, if I can call it that, we the people and the top down of governance, and we need that alignment, that coordination to further accelerate change. And that's exactly what we've seen as the secret for the case studies, we already know Norway's tipped to EVs. The UK shut down coal power. It's all about that coalition of action.

Christiana Figueres: [00:27:02] Thank you Tim. Thanks very much.

Christiana Figueres: [00:27:53] So you have heard what what the executive secretary expects. You've heard a voice from government and you've heard the voice from, let's say, academic research. Now, the question to you, does this give you a tingling of hope? Does it give you confidence or something in between? Or what else do we have to add to this?

Veena Balakrishnan: [00:28:20] I think we're ready to take action ourselves. So we heard about or we need people in the parliamentary halls. We need to, you know, we need to have people in the government. I'm saying that young people need to be a part of the governments. We need to stop asking them, and we need to have them as a part of decision making so that we are able to tackle the kind of leadership crisis we're seeing today for the mandates that we're looking for. So I run the Youth Negotiators Academy, where we redress the systemic inequality of young people's representation at the decision making tables by training them, by giving them the skills knowledge network to potentially develop their leadership skills, but also by making sure that by working with the governments directly with the UNFCCC focal points, we get them access as decision makers, a seat at the table. So this year we're training young negotiators for 63 countries, almost 200 negotiators. And we're hoping that this would change everything that we're talking about today.

Christiana Figueres: [00:29:25] Okay, Renata?

Renata Koch Alvarenga: [00:29:28] I love that. And Christiana, one of the things that really, really brings my admiration to you is that stubborn optimism lens that you have. I'm from Brazil, and in Brazil we have the saying Brasileiros non resiste nunca , which is Brazilians never give up. So we have that resilience.

Christiana Figueres: [00:29:45] Wait, you have so say that slowly, because we're going to all have to memorize this for next year okay.

Renata Koch Alvarenga: [00:29:47] In Portuguese?

Christiana Figueres: [00:29:49] Yes. In Portuguese.

Renata Koch Alvarenga: [00:29:50] Brasileiros non resiste nunca. Brazilians never give up. So this is the thing, right, people in the global South, in Latin America we're resilient because we have to be. And so really, for me, I really think it's about bringing that optimism lens even when we don't have a lot of hope. I started my activism at COP21 when I, in 2015, so I feel like it was a really good time for diplomatic convergence as you obviously know, lots of things were happening. There was good momentum, optimism, and I think we kind of lost that a little bit you know, with the threats to democracy, the very tricky elections we saw in Brazil, in the US, in so many countries. And so I think Mission 2025 is about bringing that back, planting those seeds again. And there's a quote from the Hamilton musical that I really like that says, you know, what is a legacy, it's planting seeds in a garden you never get to see. And so climate mitigation and the NDCs is really about bringing that legacy, planting those seeds. But honestly, again, as in the global South, we also need to see that flower garden as soon as we can. So bring that climate adaptation. So I really hope that with those NDCs we can see more ambitious goals, more urgency as the executive secretary of the UNFCCC said, it's about changing the business as usual, being bolder, doing better doing bigger. And so I hope that we get to see that and count on the youth to do that, because that energy, that optimism is, is really big in us because it's not just our future, right. It's our present. So let's plant those seeds and build that legacy.

Christiana Figueres: [00:31:15] Thank you. Tom, do you want to take over?

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:31:24] I will, thank you so much. That was great. Fabulous. All right. So we're going to talk now about business and finance and what it's going to take to scale things from where we are right now, so Vaishali please come and join me. Günther, please join me on the stage. Yes, please. Okay so, Vaishali, I would love to start with you, welcome. You're doing incredible work scaling solar. The simple question is, it might not be a simple answer. What does it take to scale ten times more than where you are right now?

Vaishali Nigam Sinha: [00:31:51] Thanks, it's a pleasure to be here. And congratulations on this fabulous platform. Let me tell you the 10x journey in India, the renewable energy capacity in India's energy mix has grown in the last ten years from 15% to 33%. ReNew, which is a company with Sumant, my husband and I started about ten years ago. We've put ten gigawatts on the ground, making us the largest renewable energy company in India. The question is, how did this happen, a couple of things. One is the enabling renewable energy policies like the National Solar mission, the national hydrogen mission, a lot of production linked incentives to sort of, you know, make in India and, you know, do our own panels and so on and so forth, not only for India but for the world, led to our 10x journey from 0 to 10GW. It also attracted and incentivized other players to come into India and competition and more projects on the ground and growth happened. Now, how can we take this small example of a of 10x to beyond us. So a couple of ways again, I think, one is really a question of de-risking capital, which happened in India. We it was done in a couple of ways. We set up SECI, which is a nodal agency for bidding, which was the first of its kind. So a lot of innovation and policy making, which led us to, I guess, create more transparency and have more bankable projects, which again, was a mobilizer for us. Then also we have the largest electricity transmission grid, which was also a help. Now, the thing is, how do we take this beyond us to the, to scale. I would say there are ten bold steps we can take, and I'll tell them very quickly.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:33:44] Ok, they're going to have to be like that, if you're going to go through them.

Vaishali Nigam Sinha: [00:33:47] There's one is, I think, just policies. I think we've been lucky to have a government which is focused on building renewables with the 500 gigawatt target, but we need to engage subnational governments a lot more. That's one. We need better land acquisition policies that will be a real accelerator, encourage new technologies like green hydrogen, etc, policies for that. Supply chain super critical for us larger companies to invest in the smaller companies out there to make sure that we help them decarbonize as well. We need, of course, skilling and innovation. We need more women. And people say there's a shortage of manpower, enormous number of women out there who are ready to go to work. We must include them in this sector because they're the ones who really suffer from the impacts of climate. Capital, we've talked about enough, so I'll save some time there. I think blended finance, philanthropic capital. So I'm encouraged to see what's happening in the Climate week with a lot of active philanthropic capital, which is super critical. Collaborative work, none of us can do this alone. Very important is the mindset set shift, which we are talking about. I think institutions have been engaged a lot, whether it's international, whether it's governments, whether it's corporates, but we really need individual engagement as well. Because, you know, if I believe as a professional in the sector, I'm passionate and committed to climate change and sustainability. I'll go that extra mile at work to support such policies as a CFO or a CSO. So we do need that mindset shift to make this movement a one, which is at an individual level, not only for us, but as we all know, it's for our children and theirs. So we are deeply committed to get on to the 10x journey.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:35:33] Amazing, and I was counting, that was ten, that was very good. I'm very impressed you did that. Amazing round of applause please, Vaishali. Yeah, yeah. So, Günther, we have known each other for a long time. We've always been so impressed by the work you've done, the Asset Owners Alliance, your work at Allianz. What is it going to take to 10x the deployment of capital into the solutions?

Günther Thallinger: [00:35:50] Yeah, the 10x let me first start about the baseline. We are 88 investors, we are 10 trillion of total volume that we manage. And we have reported last year -2% absolute emissions down in that portfolio. This year we report in our progress report October, it will come. But I can tell you now -6% annual basis 10 trillion -6% absolute emissions down. That's where we start. -6%, just to remind you, is very, very much on the scientific pathway that was the -50% by 2030. It is. So there are investors who can do this. Now the 10x, the 10x thing we have heard by Simon, there was the ABC, you remember the B the breakdown he was talking about, how do we bring these indices together with these the investors who are far away from these NDCs. There is this gap. The breakdown was one thing that Simon mentioned. The NDCs must be detailed. Yes, I fully agree. Governments should really be thinking about three networks, energy, transportation, information. There should be clear plans how these things look like in 2030 and the moment you have this, governments should then talk, what are the investments that come up along those three and more for the transformation. Why should they do this, because they know there are investors like us who really care for these climate impact management.

Günther Thallinger: [00:37:18] They do -6% across their portfolios. May I translate? If you do -6% across your portfolio, this means you are heavily investing into the transformation. What else should you do if you want to have -6% of emissions. So these investors are there. They have the plans. There's only one step missing. Governments must institutionalize how they work with financial markets. Why is that? If they don't do this they don't reap the enormous benefit of this economic opportunity. The fancy thing is governments sit on the economic transformation, have NDCs, but not the detailed plans. And interestingly, many governments have nobody who cares for auctioning out this enormous opportunity while investors are sitting and waiting to invest into it. So there is a chance to really close this gap with actually fairly, fairly trivial and easy means if you tell me, no, no, no, this auctioning out we have never heard about, just think about the permissions to build windmills onshore or offshore. Every country we heard about Germany today, every country has auctioned out these permissions. Why not auction out the entire transformation and reap the benefit as a government, why wouldn't you do this.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:38:45] All right, love it. Thank you so much. Thank you to both of you. Intersection, government and business. Paul, over to you.

Paul Dickinson: [00:38:53] Helen, Peter, two of my favourite people. I'm having a kind of an enormous kind of crush and little moment. I'll start with you, Peter. We met in 2008. You were running a huge company, buying aeroplanes, shipping things around the world. Now you run a coalition of enormous companies. What are your members doing to solve problems and kind of unstick the transition?

 Peter Bakker: [00:39:13] Well, I think the world of business is in a moment of pragmatism. It is really taking a photo of what is happening in science and how does that translate into risk and supply chains. And that is creating a business case that we haven't seen before, because you may not know, but many supply chains in the world within 5 to 10 years will lose all its earning capacity. Those are messages that need to be brought to boardrooms, and obviously it drives into innovation agendas. And then the third powerful link is the accountability because ISSB, CSRD and whatever other frameworks will be rolled out that will make crystal clear who's moving, who's not moving, and where the leaders will emerge.

Paul Dickinson: [00:39:57] Just a little bit more on supply chains. Where are the hits going to be for the business people in the audience? Where to look, where, where to fear?

 Peter Bakker: [00:40:02] Well, first and foremost, in the in the land based sectors, you know, companies that have done the work in agriculture where water stress, weather events, droughts are completely impacting the yield and therefore will drive commodity prices up and kill P&L's. And that's now happening. And this is this is not the end of the century stuff like some of the science predictions. This is 5 to 10 years out.

Paul Dickinson: [00:40:27] Wow okay scary. Now my favourite subject. I'm so glad to ask you, of all people, my favourite subject. What can or should or are leading investors leading corporations doing to sort of support government and to help in this process?

 Peter Bakker: [00:40:45] Very similar to what Günther was saying. Yes, we need NDCs and yes, they need to be more ambitious, but we need to make the link into the real economy. We need to make sure that whatever a country promises is being backed up by transition plans, implementation plans, investment funds, by by investors to really drive this transition on the ground. So this yesterday we had a massive meeting where I basically said, we don't need more promises, we don't need more targets, we need implementation plans that are really government investors, business led.

Paul Dickinson: [00:41:22] That's a beautiful thought. That's a truly beautiful thought. And my last question really is where have you seen that happen? Or have you got any hints if there's someone listening here wants to like make that happen, how do they go about it?

 Peter Bakker: [00:41:32] Yeah, Germany has been mentioned. I don't know why Germany is at the center of today, but I had a meeting this morning. Power lines are being constructed here in the US. The permit time takes 16 years because individuals can protest and basically stop the project. In Germany after the the gas crisis, the law has been changed and all of a sudden public interest goes above personal interest. So if you have a power line that you need to construct or a renewable energy, then all of a sudden you can put them in much faster. And that type of collaboration is what we need.

Paul Dickinson: [00:42:11] Public interest policy, thank you. Helen, you do know how to throw a party if you don't mind me saying so, I'm here to give you an award from the US Hotel Association. So thank you very much indeed, for 15 years of bringing the entire world to New York. And you'll have the freedom of the city. But seriously, I want to talk to you about something you know more about than anyone, perhaps, or in your members. And that's subnational governments. How are subnational governments showing up in this debate, and how are they contributing? And, you know, because people don't talk about them enough. So what's what's the story?

Helen Clarkson: [00:42:41] No, there are sort of a layer, for Brits it works to talk about the marzipan layer, but I think that only works in, so the bit between the icing and the rest of the cake, this layer of government that translates down from national level policies into a lot of the work. And I think one of the issues we've had over the years is, you know, the parties to COP and the agreements on the national level, governments. But so much of this transition work has to happen at the local level, whether that is state and regional governments or with cities we hear a lot about. And so we've been doing work, along with colleagues from C40 and Global Covenant of Mayors, forming this thing called CHAMP, climate people love an acronym, that's.

Paul Dickinson: [00:43:21] CHAMP.

Helen Clarkson: [00:43:21] CHAMP, the Coalition for High Ambition, multi-level partnerships, I have to use my hand for. And really, what that's saying is getting national governments to sign up to say yes, we will collaborate with our subnational partners in order to deliver, because the subnational governments are ready to deliver, they're very ambitious a lot of them. But what's been happening, you know, you think about the UK. It comes along, negotiates, goes home and says, right, Scotland, get on with it. And, you know, maybe you need to be more ambitious and sort of setting it. So how do you have much more of a dialogue between these different levels of government so that we can get the implementation done.

Paul Dickinson: [00:43:54] I mean, this was my next question in a sense, was how the subnationals fit into government. I mean, the NDC is there like a sort of, you know, some minister somewhere who's got like a, you know, a staff that do an NDC, how how should a government approach broadening that process and separately, of course, your membership includes many corporations, many investors like Peter. How, because you said it perfectly, you've got to get everyone together around the table. But how is that happening? And what's the what's the sort of secret sauce for doing more?

Helen Clarkson: [00:44:22] I think it's not there yet, but it's starting so through these sorts of things. So last year at the COP, we had this local climate action summit that was called, and our members are saying we want to be in the room, we want to be in the room. And I said, are you are you sure you want to be in the room. It's not that necessarily fun in the room, but they were creating a sort of event and a bringing together to be able to be much nearer and sort of bring the action. But we're trying to really close that gap and take those messages to and from what's happening at the national level and the international level back down to that local level for the implementation. The big thing missing in you're hearing it from everyone is the finance. And that's where I think this year at the COP, we've really got to look at that innovation that brings the finance down to the level where the implementation is happening, because everyone's ready to go on this. And so it's really about how do we make sure that we can connect. And that's part of our job.

Paul Dickinson: [00:45:11] Cheeky question in 40 seconds. I mean if you had like carbon taxes or subsidies or Inflation Reduction Act or whatever, you know, doesn't the money just kind of flow? Isn't it policy driven money or?

Helen Clarkson: [00:45:20] Yeah. I mean so climate group, we believe very strongly in, in policy and regulation. I've been talking all week about you know, it's not very sexy to say yeah regulate but businesses are ready. And just what they want is a level playing field. And so actually what they don't like is regulations that are coming with one government going with the next government. If we can set out the rules of the road. And that's why what we do with our business members is sort of aggregate that demand side voice. But take it to policymakers in country and say, look, it's this specific, tiny, weird regulation you've got that's actually inhibiting all this potential investment.

Paul Dickinson: [00:45:53] Unblock the future. Thank you both very much.

Christiana Figueres: [00:46:00] So we started today off with the executive secretary. And then of course, how do we book end, we invite the two incoming presidencies of whom you see only one here, but the other one walking through the door. Bienvenida. Thank you so much, Ana, lovely. How's that for perfect timing. No tranquila tranquila. So how delightful. And here's the challenge to both of you, because you haven't given that you have a few things to do this week. You haven't heard this conversation, but let me summarize for you in two words defiance and optimism is what I hear here. Defiance, because we can't take no for an answer. We're not going to bow to barriers and challenges, but also optimism that we can actually get over this to to do the job that needs to be done. So Nigar let me start with you, because in about 2.5 seconds, the COP is going to start and, and I just I would love to know, where are you now, what do you see, not just in the three seconds that you have left, but also how would you like the COP to end? What is the newspaper title that goes out to the world at the end of the COP?

Nigar Arpadarai: [00:47:37] Thank you. 47 days. I think we have 47 days to COP, and that's why, yes, it's, it's like the time is flying. Well, what we want to see, we want to see consensus and we want to see leadership from everywhere. So basically it's just it's a finance COP, but it's not only up to the party. So we want to see whole of society approach, cities, private sector, civil society, academia, young people. So everyone needs to be heard. And this is our role. So and I think that the success is where we have that leadership, bold leadership from all the parties, from all the stakeholders. And we have that consensus on the climate finance.

Christiana Figueres: [00:48:19] Well, that should be easy. Are you sure that's it?

Nigar Arpadarai: [00:48:24] Well, obviously not, but, well, if you ask me, I think that we need to have a private sector leadership model because my role is the role of a champion, which is which envisages engaging with non-state actors. When we speak about non-state actors, the private sector, civil society and cities, all the rest philanthropists come, come here. And we we want to see strong signals from the private sector that they are ready also to to be part of this conversation, that they are ready to commit and they are ready to to to be part of climate finance talks.

Christiana Figueres: [00:48:58] And Nigar what if I told you that that is actually already the case. What if I told you that private sector and finance sector, those two are actually at the table and actually wanting more certainty from governments. So when you say you want them at the table, I think they would say we've been at the table for quite a while. When are governments going to come to the table?

Nigar Arpadarai: [00:49:19] Absolutely. It needs to be a very good dialogue between the governments and the private sector, and this is what we constantly hear from large companies, from SMEs, from everybody that yes, business people, entrepreneurs need to be incentivised. They need to believe in the green transition. And we they are actually sending strong signals to governments to make commitments and to come up with ambitious NDCs. So there should be a both ways dialogue and cooperation are the key.

Christiana Figueres: [00:49:49] Okay, thank you. Ana, you have a few more minutes before we get to COP 30. That's good. How would you like to take whatever is delivered at COP 29 and then pick it up in COP 30, what is COP 30 aspiration?

Ana Toni: [00:50:06] So hello everyone.

Christiana Figueres: [00:50:08] We're glad you got here.

Ana Toni: [00:50:10] That's it, we're we're all in a hurry. But at the same time, we need this internal peace to move us forward. So thank you for having us. First success at COP 29 is absolutely vital for the success of COP 30 is that's that's why we are working together with troika to accelerate especially more ambitious NDCs that we're hoping everybody is helping to do. But I like the question about what's the headline just after. And I, I think the headline I would like to, to have after COP 30 is that was a COP about implementation, and speedy implementation. I think we have a lot of promise at COP 28. Many things have been agreed, and what we need now is implementation. And who implements subnational governments, private sector obviously federal governments as well. And we need to work together to speed up and accelerate. So from from Brazil, as an emerging countries, we know about all the comparative advantages of a country like Brazil that could become competitive advantage, but we haven't seen the investments coming. The signal from the economics, the economic sectors is fundamental. So the headline I would like to see would be at COP 30, the climate governance have finally engaged the economic governance to give us the direction on how to speed up and to scale up the actions that we need to have.

Christiana Figueres: [00:51:50] Okay. Thank you. I think that was not unpredictable and yet still to be delivered. Thank you very much to both of you. Paul and Tom?

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:52:11] All right. It's been great. So we've come to the end of our time. We have a couple more minutes, I think, but it's been very nice, one of the first times we've ever done a live podcast together. Thank you, everyone who helped us organize it.

Christiana Figueres: [00:52:22] Wait, you two already did a live podcast. But I'm the newbie.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:52:25] Well, I did it but then we brought Paul up at the last minute, which was always lovely to have him around. We do tease him, but we love him. I hope you know that, yeah.

Paul Dickinson: [00:52:32] Excuse me, I'm wearing a suit and, like, a white shirt and black shiny shoes. And you're teasing me.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:52:38] There was a mix up in the hotel with my laundry, so I, yeah, yeah.

Christiana Figueres: [00:52:41] Oh yeah, right right right right right.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:52:42] So before we finish, we've got to ask the question. What do we leave this conversation with, what did we learn in the last hour? And what does the magic word mean?

Paul Dickinson: [00:52:52] Ah, the magic word.

Christiana Figueres: [00:52:53] The magic, do you remember what the word is?

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:52:55] I don't, but I know there was one.

Christiana Figueres: [00:52:56] Do you remember what the word was?

Paul Dickinson: [00:52:57] Yes of course I do, yes.

Christiana Figueres: [00:52:58] Yes well. Always learn from the younger generation. So I learned this word from my daughter this morning who is here because she's a consultant to impact investment. And she told me that she is participating in quite a set of very cutting edge conversations here at Climate Week, which is delightful to know that there, some people at least, are cutting into new territory that hasn't been cut into yet. And the topic of all of those conversations is BioFi. Now, the Fi does not stand for fiction. It stands for finance. And it is the challenge that many people are taking onto themselves about how are we going to figure out the finance that needs to go into the biodiversity, into biological. That's where it comes from biological finance. And even more interestingly, the challenge that they're giving themselves is how does that finance that goes into natural resources, that goes into basically land use or oceans, how can it actually attain the localization, the specificity that it needs to make sense and to be effective at the local level. So it's not about big global structures. It's about how do you make it have sense at the local level. That to me is a new challenge that we have to move toward, and I was really so grateful that there are some people who are taking it on here at Climate Week. And so you can go home saying, you know what BioFi is. We don't have the answers, but at least we know what the word means.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:54:50] But also BiFi was right there, that's much nicer. They should have gone for BiFi, but anyway, BioFi.

Christiana Figueres: [00:54:56] BioFi, I was corrected, I was corrected.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:54:58] Alright, okay, so, and this conversation?

Christiana Figueres: [00:55:00] And this conversation. Well, as I told Nigar and Ana, when they walked in, I heard much welcomed defiance, which is, you know, we're just not going to continue to accept boundaries and, barriers because simply we have run out of time. So I love that defiance and the fact that it's paired up with optimism that we're actually able to do this in time is sort of the way I think.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:55:32] All right, very nice. PD?

Paul Dickinson: [00:55:34] Beyond finger pointing right. We're not doing that anymore. As we're thinking about NDC's developing, how can we collaborate to get NDCs that are super investable and talk about green jobs more. And I'm going to reprise my earlier little bit of mime. It's the sleeves rolled up. It's actually now working on problem solving and taking that spirit of problem solving all the way through the year and on the on the policy thing, making the rules we need to finish the job.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:56:07] Love it okay. And my final thought I would say is it's this, right. It's the intersection. It's actually every piece is now in place. The momentum is there, the economics are there, the ambition is there. It's the pieces coming together to influence each other. That's what Mission 2025 is about. That's what we want to do in the course of the next 18 months, to get us to the point where we can scale up the NDCs. Everybody is needed for that. We're all in for that. Thank you to all of you. Thank you to all the partners in the room. Thanks to the team who put this together. We love you. Please tune in next week.

Paul Dickinson: [00:56:40] See you next week.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:56:40] Thanks so much. All right, thank you.

Paul Dickinson: [00:56:57] Hello world. We're the hosts of Outrage + Optimism, a podcast about nature, climate, politics and everything in between. Here to announce a brand new mini series we've made just for you.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:57:09] Yes, we have been working in climate for a long time, and while it's fun for some of us to go on and on about representative concentration pathways, the albedo effect, anthropogenic forcing.

Christiana Figueres: [00:57:19] Tom Tom, stop. Nobody has a clue what you're talking about.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:57:22] Exactly. So you get my point. Our podcast is aiming to talk about climate change in a way that connects with people speaking like friends would.

Paul Dickinson: [00:57:29] Because we are friends.

Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:57:31] Yes, and as friends, the three of us sat down to discuss the top questions people are wrestling with right now. Should I fly? Should I have children? What should I eat? Suffice to say, we did not agree on everything.

Christiana Figueres: [00:57:43] No, but that's not really the point, right. The conversation moved into such a space of honesty that it helped us find new pathways we do agree on. This series is for everyone wanting to do something about climate change and wanting to live a good life at the same time.

Paul Dickinson: [00:58:01] So pull up a chair to the table with us. The new series starts on 3rd of October on Outrage + Optimism.