258: The Climate Pledge Turns Five

Christiana: [00:01:17] Well, this morning I have to do some introductory remarks to the retreat, the climate and nature retreat that starts here tonight. And I was contemplating this morning something that is known to all of us, but that is worth emphasizing, which is the last three months of every year are completely crazy time for all of us who work on any of the global environmental agendas right, and I was just.

Tom: [00:01:53] I always say to someone who's joined the climate movement, take a holiday in August because it's your last chance.

Christiana: [00:01:56] Yes, that's it, that's it.

Tom: [00:01:58] Until about January or February, yeah.

Christiana: [00:01:59] So, and so just to illustrate that next week as, as we've said, is Climate Week, which is an extraordinarily busy week that most people use to do networking with each other to explain to each other their favourite projects, to get build alliances, launch new, new initiatives. Et cetera. Et cetera. So it's a pretty busy week, and that's September. Then in October, we have the Biodiversity COP in Colombia, for which everyone who's working on biodiversity is full steam right now in preparation, especially because Colombia just volunteered to take that over the presidency of that of that COP just a few months ago. And so they are honestly. 

Tom: [00:02:56] Hope are high right, and pressure's are high.

Christiana: [00:02:57] Scrambling scrambling to get that those pieces together. That is October. Then November, our climate change COP for which there are also many preparations for itself, but also as a step to Belém next year. Then, as though that were nothing, then in December, we have the Desertification Convention that also has its COP this year.

Tom: [00:03:24] That's Saudi Arabia, right?

Christiana: [00:03:25] And that's in Saudi Arabia. And so it's it's an incredibly busy time.

Tom: [00:03:32] There's something on plastics?

Christiana: [00:03:32] Oh and then add to that as though that were nothing, we have a new treaty, a new that is being, finalized now also in November, I believe in Busara there will be that is their last negotiation for the plastics treaty that hopefully will be adopted next year. So it's a very, very busy time. And Tom, I think one has to choose the way that you approach these days because we can approach these days.

Tom: [00:04:04] I sort of run at it slightly chaotically, going from thing to thing, not quite sure what my priorities are. Is that what you were going to recommend?

Christiana: [00:04:13] Very helpful. I mean, hopefully not chaotic, but but I do think from an emotional and a mindset point of view, we can all we can always fall into the temptation of approaching these very busy days with a sense of desperation, a sense of frustration about what is not being done. A sense of basically doom and gloom, hopelessness, which all of which is very justified because we have run out of time and we don't see the finance being brought to the table on time. Et cetera, et cetera. Et cetera. So and and temperatures continue to increase. So, you know, all of that is very justified, and at the same time, we can face those facts with courage and we can say, okay, and because of all of those facts, what do we want to do about it.

Tom: [00:05:01] Yeah.

Christiana: [00:05:01] And and really be very intentional about bringing a positive mindset of let's create possibilities here and not succumb to the hopelessness, but rather build hope. As a friend of mine says, it's about rolling up your sleeves with hope, right. That is what we need. So there's a choice to be made. And for those who are already in frantic mode, the invitation is not to allow yourselves to be swept up by the frenzy, but rather to pause for a moment and go like, okay, what do I really want out of these days, how can I contribute, how can I listen better, how can I speak better, how can I lift up the collective dynamic around these issues so that we can get to better results.

Tom: [00:05:53] It's such a good reminder. It's such a good reminder anyway. But it's such a good reminder right now because I think also, and we've witnessed this over multiple years as, as the year, this this is an issue that gets more and more acute right as the years go by. And as we don't see action commensurate with the scale of the challenge, this sort of breathless anxiety can take hold of people and then. 

Christiana: [00:06:14] So easily.

Tom: [00:06:14] And then you apply this series of different moments and it's so they are consequential, and it's so easy to feel that they're consequential. They need to turn out a particular way. But the I do feel like when we lose the balance of our minds in our ability to approach these very consequential, very busy times with a degree of just being grounded, able to face the opportunities, realizing, and this is something that comes to you with age. The outcome will be inherently ambiguous, but hopefully we'll move the needle towards where it needs to be. I think that's a really good, I think it's just a really good mentality to bring to this, this critical moment.

Christiana: [00:06:49] Well, it's certainly better than being frantic, frustrated and hopeless.

Tom: [00:06:56] Right, now next week, of course, the important thing about the UN General Assembly and Climate Week is it's often a momentum builder, isn't it, that goes into these other events. So hopefully what we'll see and we will be in New York, we're doing a live podcast next Tuesday. All the details will be in the show notes. We'll be with, Mr. Paul Dickinson there, of course, and many fantastic guests, and we will be reporting to you there on all of the momentum that's been built and what we're getting to.

Christiana: [00:07:21] And we have one very exciting event.

Tom: [00:07:25] Yes, absolutely. So should we turn to that or is there anything that you would like to say about the climate and nature retreats?

Christiana: [00:07:31] No no no, let's turn to that.

Tom: [00:07:32] Okay, so listeners, some of you may or may not know that several years ago, Christiana was approached by Jeff Bezos, and this story is told in the interview you're about to hear who said, I want to prove you wrong. I want to show you that we can get to net zero by 2040, not 2050, which is written in the Paris Agreement. Christiana's response to my recollection was, I don't believe you, but I'm prepared to give you a hearing or something a bit less directed but more invitational than that. And over time we had conversations with him and with Kara Hurst, and we really began to understand and believe that they were serious, that they were going to invest and they were going to really try and make something happen. That led to the creation of something called The Climate Pledge that listeners may or may not have heard of, but has now grown into a group of over 500 companies, all coming together with a shared ambition to innovate, to take action, to drive towards net zero by 2040. It's been quite a big part of our lives really for the last five years, and next week is the fifth anniversary, so we'll have a big event in New York on the Thursday with some fantastic speakers. And what we wanted to do this week in the podcast was to celebrate those five years to acknowledge that there's still more to do and that there's still answers we haven't reached. But to have a conversation with Kara where we delve into what's worked, what hasn't, what's next, what we're enjoying. So that's really the point of today, isn't it?

Christiana: [00:09:00] And have we properly introduced Kara?

Tom: [00:09:02] I'm not sure we have. Would you like to do that? She is, of course, a veteran of the podcast.

Christiana: [00:09:06] She is, because she has been on our podcast.

Tom: [00:09:10] You spent ages talking about moss I seem to remember.

Christiana: [00:09:12] Moss, yes thank you very much. What do you mean, you spent ages, we! I did manage to rope both of you in to the moss conversation.

Tom: [00:09:22] ASMR crossover episode.

Christiana: [00:09:26] So Kara Hurst is the brilliant Chief Sustainability Officer of Amazon and has just been so intent, so passionate, so honest, so sincere about her goliath efforts to bring Amazon as a company, but also indirectly, all of these other companies that are working with Amazon. These 500 companies, under the Climate Pledge, bring them onto a path of decarbonization. Not an easy task, not an easy task to do that in Amazon. One of the largest and most diverse companies in the world, but an even more difficult task to be able to chart that path for companies that are very diverse. Over 500 companies, some of them very large, some of them very small, in quantious different sectors. And and she has just been such a motor for that and such a, such a light along that path, together with Sally.

Tom: [00:10:32] Sally Fouts, absolutely. 

Christiana: [00:10:35] Absolutely brilliant. Sally is the is directly responsible for the Climate Pledge at Amazon. But the two of them, just an incredible team.

Tom: [00:10:45] Absolutely. No, it's been wonderful to see. Incredible to witness and appreciate and be part of the momentum. But enjoy this week's conversation with Kara looking at five years of the Climate Pledge. And we'll see you next week. Bye. 

Christiana: [00:10:57] Bye.

Tom: [00:11:03] Kara Hurst, it is a huge pleasure to have you back on the podcast. We are very grateful to be speaking to you again, this time sadly not in a small room together in Seattle. Although you are with this beautiful backdrop, you can see the city behind you. And I have to say, first of all, you're very brave coming back on when last time you came, Christiana spent 15 minutes talking about how much she loved moss and lichen in the Olympic village. 

Christiana: [00:11:23] At least, at least. 

Tom: [00:11:24] At least 15 minutes.

Christiana: [00:11:25] And we're going to do that again now.

Tom: [00:11:26] No no no no no, we're not going to do that again.

Christiana: [00:11:28] Yes. Because Kara has been studying moss and lichen and she now likes lichen.

Kara Hurst: [00:11:34] That's right.

Tom: [00:11:35] Kara runs sustainability for a very important company. I don't think she joins podcasts to talk about Lichen, but we'll find out. Kara, it's lovely to see you.

Kara Hurst: [00:11:43] It's so good to be back.

Tom: [00:11:43] We are here instead.

Christiana: [00:11:45] Kara, you know I have to put up with him day in and day out.

Tom: [00:11:49] We are here instead to talk about the work that the three of us, as well as many others in both of our organizations, have been doing together for the last five years. Because the 19th of September, 2024 is close enough to the five year anniversary of the creation of the Climate Pledge. And those five years we have been working together on scaling ambition, on implementation, on taking climate action to the next level. Famously Christiana's favourite time she has ever been proved wrong. So that's what we're going to talk about today. Christiana, maybe you want to kick off with a few words, and then we'll invite Kara to come in.

Christiana: [00:12:22] Well, seriously, Kara, really, such a joy to have you on and and reminisce, reminisce a little bit about the last five years and also look forward to where we are moving. Very exciting adventure. And I must say, the beginning of the adventure was, as both of you know, a call from Bezos. Well, I mean, how many times do you get a call from Bezos saying he literally wants to prove the Paris Agreement wrong. I'm like, well, that's a good start for a conversation, and he wants to start, certainly with Amazon, but also inviting other companies to join him in getting to net zero by 2040, which is ten, not five, but ten years earlier than the Paris Agreement has foreseen. So I must say, my first reaction was, oh, yeah right. With what credibility is Bezos saying that, with what credibility is Amazon going to aspire to that. I was so, so, hum, questioning. No, this is just never going to happen. But I must admit, over time, I was convinced of his sincerity. After several conversations, and I was convinced that Amazon was really going to devote its sustainability activities, among other things, to decarbonize itself and help other companies. And so once you had all convinced Tom and myself, then we went into this adventure together.

Christiana: [00:14:14] And it has been quite a ride Kara, quite a ride. I would say that you have been the rudder in that, in that adventure, holding, holding the the stability of the boat and ensuring that we're always sailing in the right direction. So my my first recognition Kara is to you because this is a really, really difficult vision that Amazon, Bezos and you all committed yourself to. And you have been just such a guiding light, such a rudder. So, so impressive how you've put up with a whole bunch of things that begin with s, and you've just stayed the course and said, and we're going to do it. So my first recognition to you, Kara, and my second recognition to all the companies, I mean, we're beyond 500 companies that have now decided that they're going to join this incredible, incredible adventure with many ups and downs, with much difficulty. As any company that wants to decarbonize knows how difficult this is. But with increasing determination. And we're going to speak about with increasing progress and results, which is very exciting. So that is my recollection of how we started. But how did it start for you, Kara?

Kara Hurst: [00:15:47] Wow, well, there's so many things I want to I want to say, but first of all, thank you for that, and I, I it's so fun to be with the both of you, because one of the things that's been such a joy over the past five years has been getting to know both of you, and, I think it's one of the best decisions that we made, in doing the Climate Pledge, creating the Climate Pledge is to bring your joy and your optimism into this. And it wouldn't be what it is, and it wouldn't be over 500 companies if we didn't have Tom and Christiana at the helm of it. And your optimism and your joy and your spirit leading this and who you are. So thank you for taking a chance on all of this, because we know your time is in demand and you could do anything in the world, really. So it's such an honour that you chose to partner with us on this. For me, you know, this was a longer path going back, many years before 2019 and building up the science.

Tom: [00:16:52] That's right, we always forget, 2019 was the end of the process that you'd been working on.

Kara Hurst: [00:16:56] It was one milestone along the way, but, but it was, you know, we had been thinking about about all of this and what Amazon could do and, you know, investing in this science and this work at the company and thinking, what goals should we set and what should we be public about. And we knew we were going to set goals. And then it was the idea to make this more public and make it a pledge. And of course, we talked about how there were other pledges out there and there were other things. So why add to that. And, you know, you know, the credit to to our leadership at the time and and and Jeff and everybody, you know, in that leadership team who said stepping into that and really, having others come forward and say, we think as, as industries we could send these big demand signals. That was something he really wanted to come together and do. And if we could get others to join us, if they would join us, then we really thought this could be transformative. And we really wanted to show and share what we were doing. We wanted to learn from others. We wanted to be humble about that. We wanted to talk about failures. We wanted to talk about the fact that it was still possible, because I think there was so much doom and gloom, in a sense, around the climate conversation. Was there an opportunity to think, you know, there was a way to use our innovation and inventiveness and customer obsession, all those things we talk about to say, let's do this, let's actually be optimistic about it.

Kara Hurst: [00:18:23] And then we, you know, said this group, Global Optimism sounds like the perfect fit. And then, of course, we talked about before we had the conversation where I cold called you, we talked about, would it be insulting to call Christiana Figueres and say, hey, what do you think about going ten years ahead of the Paris Agreement, which of course is the most, you know at the time, audacious and bold and renowned agreement in the world. But, you know, we have this kind of idea that if if, you know, challenge is a good thing and the planet should if you can go bigger and go better, you know, we thought you would embrace that. And of course you did, which was amazing. And so I think this thing that we've built really together, and the fact that it's been so compelling to so many people from so many different kinds of companies, small, big, global, you know, you know, little companies from small industries. Everybody has said, yeah, we want to be a part of this because we are seeking solutions, we're seeking optimism. We're seeking a place where we can come together, shut out some of the noise that is saying this isn't possible, and find a community that's just solutions oriented. I think that's been so inspirational.

Tom: [00:19:46] Yeah, thank you for that. And we should get into, I loved everything you said there, including the, you know, the humility and the need to kind of like work to address the challenges, be honest. That's the only way. I mean, none of us have ever decarbonized a global economy before. So we're all doing this for the first time, and we all need to have the space and the flexibility to try things. Some things work, some things don't. That needs to be okay right. So let's get in a minute to some of the challenges and ways the world has changed in the first five years. But so so that's coming. But before we do just a few bits of data about the things that have gone really well, because it's also really important to celebrate that, right. So as you said earlier, 511 signatories to the Climate Pledge, that is, I mean, if if we'd heard five years ago that we were going to get to this point, I'd have taken that in a heartbeat. That's an astonishing number. So we should feel, those companies should feel very proud that they've all stepped in and stepped up.

Christiana: [00:20:36] I remember when we got to 100 and we were dancing. Do you remember?

Tom: [00:20:40] Yeah, I remember being pleased we got to ten.

Kara Hurst: [00:20:42] And we had a global pandemic in the middle of that right. I mean.

Christiana: [00:20:45] Exactly.

Kara Hurst: [00:20:46] Right. And a supply chain crisis. A lot of lot of things.

Tom: [00:20:48] So, so obviously, one of the things we've been doing is looking back as we come to this moment. And something that caught my eye is that these signatories and 2022 is the last year we have full data for because of the way in which data is disclosed on emissions. But these signatories have reduced their Scope 1 and 2 emissions 11%. That is double the rate achieved by 3500 companies reporting to CDP. So that's a really interesting statistic actually, that we do see an uptick in the implementation and in the reduction of those companies. Of course, there's lots of ways you can look at that, but that's an interesting statistic. And I think that's that's what do you make of that?

Kara Hurst: [00:21:30] I think it's companies that are attracted to the pledge or companies that are very committed. They're on accelerated timeline, but they're also sharing what they know. And they're they're collaborating and they're sharing solutions. They're sharing failures. They're sharing ways that this is happening. They're looking for ways to act. They're looking for how to make operational changes. That is one of the biggest parts of the pledge. I know that that's where we're focused. They're not distracted about the noise again in the system. They're looking at what are the changes we can make now? How are you doing that? So that's the number one question we get from signatories. How are you doing this? What specific changes are you making? So I think when you have a group of companies that is very focused on what can we do now, what are the specific things that you're doing. Those operational changes are the changes we need to make. And so when companies are on a timeline, you have your leadership committed and you're making those changes, you're going to see that kind of result.

Christiana: [00:22:28] And Kara, can I say to that list that you said, when you know, when they're clear, when their leadership is there, when they're making the changes and when they're learning from each other, that's the piece that is most inspiring for me. The fact that, you know, these 500 and some companies are, yes, doing their own thing, assuming their own responsibility, but also coming to the pledge, coming to the group of companies because they realize that they don't know how to do this and that together they can learn faster and better, and, and and it's not just about the learning. It's also about the sharing of the learnings right. So those that have gone ahead who are willing to share with others in a pre-competitive space, share with others experience of how they got there and the others to have the humility to learn and and that for me, honestly, that's the heart of the climate pledge for me. Because yes, of course, we measure ourselves through the achievement of how many tons reduced and, and and the speed with which companies are reducing. But the attitude that people bring to both share with each other and learn from each other. For me, that's the only way that we're actually going to move away from the marginal and linear decarbonization into something that is much faster and is needed very urgently.

Tom: [00:24:03] You know, that's a learning journey, isn't it. I mean, I think I would share and all three of us would share in the wider teams the sense that that's one of the clear, defining identities of the Climate Pledge. You want to drive trust and collaboration to accelerate implementation and action. And that's tough work, right. That's hard to get companies to focus on. Everyone's got priorities. They're all dealing with other things. But to actually enable them to focus on what is the benefit of working collectively together. And I think we'll get to how we're going to scale some of that up. I mean, one example I would like to give, and you've been really driving this forward, Kara, is the lane shift project where the Client Pledge has partnered with C40 cities. Now, what's really interesting about this is that, of course, road freight is a major source of air pollution and one of the most important sectors that we need to decarbonize. But it's also one of the most challenging. And lane shift is actually a partnership between corporations and cities to accelerate the development of electric vehicle infrastructure and the deployment of electric trucks in cities across India and Latin America. So this is a really practical way that we've seen signatories to the pledge partner with cities through funding that came from the Climate Pledge and Amazon to clean up the air, generate green jobs and work towards a just transition. I think that's right now a we're really example of the kind of practical implementation work that we want to do.

Kara Hurst: [00:25:20] Yeah, I think public private partnerships, we know have to be key to everything that we're doing. We don't exist as a group of companies, you know, solely in the private sector right. All of us operate in these communities around the world. We have people our employees live in the communities we're part of. These are integral part of how we operate, and our transportation runs through these communities. And the solutions a lot of times are at the local levels. Federal policy, national policy, incredibly important. We've seen this certainly in the United States, with some of the policies that have passed in this current administration and the support that that's brought and the funding that that's brought. But a lot of these mayors in these in these cities are also driving great action and policy. And I think this group at C40 has some incredible leaders that are looking to say, how can my city, especially in India and in Latin America, where you might have the chance to leapfrog, you know, into some of these better solutions. How can we get the infrastructure that we need, how can we transform our city. You know, our our people want to see this electrification happen faster. How can we partner with the private sector to make that happen, when you also are seeking these kinds of solutions, given your goals and given where your company needs to go. So we want to come together on that kind of work.

Tom: [00:26:39] What are some of the things that you would say that we're learning about how to do successful collaboration between companies?

Kara Hurst: [00:26:46] It's a great question. From my perspective, one it takes patience. It takes a willingness to be transparent and to share information. It takes a willingness to be a little bit vulnerable and also to share, I think one of the best things about this community is we also share not just our solutions and our successes, but our failures right. And and you don't get punished for that. There's a lot of places in the world where we get punished for sharing our failures. And I think the Climate Pledge community is a place where we can talk very openly about that and share that. That's that's as valuable as sharing the solutions and the wins, sharing the failures and what didn't work can sometimes be equally, if not more valuable. So having that as well as a place to come and talk about what didn't work or what you learned from those failures is very important, and then I think just, you know, also learning what's coming like that kind of how are you looking around the corners, what's coming next, what do we need to be thinking about, what are you thinking about this year, but what do you what are you thinking about, what's you know, I think about water a lot right now. And, you know, the nexus of water and climate. And I talk to people. How are you thinking about that? And you know what's coming that I'm not thinking about having those conversations as well. It's been really interesting with other Climate Pledge signatories.

Tom: [00:28:05] I think one of the things I've picked up as well, and I'd love to ask you the same, Christiana, is that I think when we started I had more of an assumption that kind of build it and they will come just sort of say we want to collaborate and people will come out of the woodwork with ideas, and then we're all jump on them and kind of make them happen. And of course, everyone's busy and everyone's got priorities. And it's and also people don't necessarily know what they want to collaborate on. So it's been a really important process of listening and conversation and partnership to work out where those areas of collaboration lie. And I don't think we've fully done that yet right. That's clearly an unfinished piece of work to think about how we can go further down that road. But I think when we come to talk about what's next for the pledge, I think that's going to be a big part of how we now scale up the successes we have identified.

Christiana: [00:28:49] Yeah. And for me, it's also how do you make this easier for companies? How do you bring the threshold down? Because as you say, Tom, they have a thousand things, right. All of Kara's colleagues, chief sustainability officers in the companies that have the luxury of having a CSO because most don't, by the way, then they have a thousand other things that are pressing and, and have a much higher priority. And and yet they are despite those priorities, they're still committed. So the question is how do we bring the threshold down? How do we make it easy for them? And they're all in very, very different sectors. I would love to hear Kara give us, you know, an example of of how many different sectors there are here, because it's not like we're talking about one industry. Amazon itself is many industries in in the same company. But then we have many companies that are just across the board in so many different industries. So it's not that easy for them to share lessons that are industry shared, but our role here is precisely to look at where are the commonalities and how do we make things easier for them so that it doesn't feel like they're constantly pushing a ball up the hill.

Kara Hurst: [00:30:25] We have endless opportunities to collaborate. I know that, you know, in conversation with other CSOs and other leaders and other sustainability folks, you know, there's a number of ways in which we can come together. There are lots of networks. There are lots of groups. There's an endless amount of asks to sign on to things. This is something we talk about a lot. So why the Climate Pledge? Why has it been I get this, I get this question also from other groups. Why have you been able to attract all these companies? Why is it so, you know, such a successful group, 517 companies in five years is a lot of companies and it continues to grow. I think we have 55 different industries represented in over 40 different geographies. So one, it's very global. There's a wide mix of companies and we do have many different industries. And so it's very interesting to think about what makes that mix successful. I think that we've been our customer obsession in a way comes through. We're constantly listening and asking what do you want to have happen? What is valuable to you in this community? Rather than saying, here's something we want you to sign on to, or here's a next thing, or here's a commitment, we made the commitment clear from the outset, and I think this is something we all agreed on, meaning the three of us and and Jeff and our leadership and all of that. There were three tenets to the pledge we've kept to them. We've not veered from that.

Kara Hurst: [00:31:59] We don't change it up all the time. That's that's one thing I think has been a successful thing right. You need to map, measure and report. You need to decarbonize. And then we have, you know, where you can't, we need nature based solutions that are, you know, scalable and real and permanent and credible. And we have very specific language. It's very tight and we don't change it. So you know what you signed up for. And we're sticking to that. And it's very difficult to do. So it's a high bar that we set. It's a very ambitious bar but it doesn't change right. And the only thing that's that's like ticking is the clock. So we we are marching towards that time frame and we're listening to what do you need to get there. And I think, you know, we put a lot of focus on getting folks into this. And now we're putting a lot of focus on joint action because people said we need joint action projects like lane shift or we want to know how we get together as industry. And we're not always getting that right to be vocally self-critical about what we're doing in The Pledge. There's lots of work we can do to figure out what those signatories might need, or what else they might want to do, but we are actively always listening as that group changes and as new companies come in to what they might want to do, but we don't change the expectation. I think that's a key component.

Christiana: [00:33:31] Kara, I would love to invite you to go deeper into we don't change the expectation because over the past five years, if I go back to my analogy of a little sailboat and you being the rudder there, we have had winds coming at us from two completely different directions. We have had several gusts of wind coming at us from other groups and other alliances where there is a constant shift up in expectation, moving toward perfection, or sometimes even beyond perfection, and, and we, we see that constantly occurring. On the other side of the sailboat, we also have had quite a few gusts of winds of let's just put it under the title of the ESG backlash, and, you know, with a lot of pressure to say, no, no, no, all climate responsibility is irresponsible financially for the bottom line, don't do it. It is legally irresponsible. It is a liability. Et cetera. Et cetera. So we've sort of received that pressure. Not sort of, we have definitely received pressure in both directions over the past five years. And I would love to hear your sense of how has the Climate Pledge reacted to those pressures that come from diametrically opposed sides, and why have we chosen to stay the course?

Kara Hurst: [00:35:16] I think in some ways you just answered your own question, right. I mean, there's noise on both sides, right. One of the first times I met you, we were at a I think it was a book signing in DC. It was at an apartment, and it was the first time someone had said this to me. You said, there is so much noise around you. Always look for the signal. And that was a phrase I hadn't heard really. And it stuck with me so much, because if I if my head was on a swivel every time someone told me I should be doing something or I should be, you know, doing it differently, or there's just there's a lot of noise. So when you pick something and you are you, you're led by the science. So number one, this was grounded in science. Science was telling us we had to go faster. Science was telling us the planet tells us we need to go faster. Science was telling us it was a both and we need to decarbonize our operations, and we need to invest in nature. So a lot of what we put into the pledge, right, what we invented and simplified and Amazon language was science based focus on the science, chart the path.

Kara Hurst: [00:36:31] We don't know how we're going to get there. We need to be clear about that. But don't veer from that path, because the minute you do, someone will say you're wrong. Well, you're wrong over here and you're wrong over here. It is constant. So the one thing that you can do if you're going to ever have a shot at making it work, is to stick to your path. And that's not to say you can't learn on the path and you can't, you know, make adjustments and you can't course correct. But don't get off your path right. So, I think that this idea that there are many, many groups out there who will constantly tell corporations that you're doing it wrong or, you know, we we need to be doing it better, we need to be doing it differently or we and, you know, there's things to learn and to listen to from that. But, you know, if I were to listen to all of, we would we would be so distracted we would get nothing done.

Tom: [00:37:27] And once you start taking a step in the directions that you're pushed in, then exactly as you say, you enter kind of a formless world where you have to then make a value judgment every time. I mean, Christiana, before you asked your question, I made a little list. I mean, we started off with a negativity about the chance we were going to do it. Then we got to excitement about a trillion trees. Then we had an ESG pushback. Then we had a handwringing about nature and nature based solutions. Then we had excitement about the Inflation Reduction Act. Then we had the apparent collapse of science based targets, initiative and corporate standards. I mean, it's been a really crazy five years, and actually all of those different things could have could have if we had been focused on those things rather than trying to get on with the work. It could have prevented real progress. And heartbreakingly, that's what we have seen in parts of the not the pledge, but in parts of the world that is trying to deal with climate change. So I love that answer you just gave Kara, thank you for that.

Christiana: [00:38:18] That's an answer that comes from the rudder Tom. 

Tom: [00:38:21] From the rudder, yeah. There you go, despite the wind, now.

Christiana: [00:38:25] Despite the wind.

Tom: [00:38:27] Let's think about what's next. I mean, you know, this is a commitment to 2040, and we're five years in, 11% reduction is pretty good. If you draw a linear line, which probably you never can do, maybe it needs to be a little bit higher to be on the pathway to net zero 2040. But it's within the range. There's always more to do in climate change, put it that way. But what's next? We now need to scale up to 2030 and then on to 2040. Christiana, maybe you want to jump in first. How do we how do we take the Climate Pledge to the next phase of exponential transformation that we need to to get us to meet the targets that we've set out for ourselves and that these companies have set for themselves?

Christiana: [00:39:06] Well, I think we've obliquely already spoken about that, because it is about getting companies to learn from each other and to work across across lines, across companies, across industry, across private public, and I think that is such a unique offering of, of the Climate Pledge that we don't we don't we don't even see those boundaries. For us, it's what is the most efficient way of getting our emissions down. And then we just go and bring in the actors that are needed to collaborate and help each other learn on that. And I think that is so helpful because when I compare ourselves to other coalitions, perhaps, who have much tighter boundaries, preconceived boundaries of who's in and who's out, out of from the effort, it just doesn't allow for that flexibility of being able to choose or to invite in those stakeholders that can most contribute at that moment in time, which may change 2 or 3 years from now. But it's about efficiency. How do we get there in the shortest period of time with the biggest results.

Tom: [00:40:30] Love that. Kara?

Kara Hurst: [00:40:33] I think I go back to, you know, your, your concept of of linear. There are so many things that we know that are solutions that just need scale. And so part of what, how I think about this is there are things that we're doing now that I hope can get to scale much quicker. And I'm glad that we have 500 companies. I hope that we do have more or even that companies, you know, if they can't join the pledge for whatever reason, just start to act and lean into some of these other, you know, coalitions that are being built that are sending these demand signals, like Sustainable Aviation Buyers Alliance or Zero Emission Maritime Buyers Alliance, these these kind of demand signals, sending industry alliances that are bringing some of these solutions to cost parity or sending to big demand signals in these heavier industrial sectors, the built environment, transportation, and, you know, things like that, that we need change in more rapidly if we're really going to see this decarbonization happen, because we need those kinds of solutions to get to scale very, very quickly. So that's one thing that I think will help. And then I think there's a whole bunch of things that we don't necessarily have solutions for where we're still looking and we need transformation. And we need inventiveness. We need investment. We need some risk taking to happen in those areas. So when I think about what needs to happen is that dual path of keep pushing on the things we know to get them bigger and bigger and bigger that we know are working and we need more investment, and we need cities and states and nations leaning in. We need companies leaning in. We need all of those things to get to scale more quickly. We need the capital to be deployed. And then I think there's things that we just, you know, catalytic invention that needs to happen where we don't have a solution, but we know we need one.

Tom: [00:42:35] So what's been so interesting with these 500 companies that we now have the privilege of working with is, of course, they all come into the pledge in completely different places. Some of them have detailed sustainability plans and teams in place. Others are small and medium sized enterprises. They need to put their processes in place, and so we see this wide disparity between the ability to jump in and start reporting immediately, start reducing emissions and have the ability to collaborate together. And so that can lead to a whole bunch of challenges for us right. I mean, how do we track our progress? How do we attribute what the Climate Pledge is responsible for in terms of reductions compared to what those companies would do anyway? And I think that when we look at this and I'm really curious to know both of your perspectives on this question, there are just some unknowables, right. We have to have the momentum that goes in the right direction to say we partner with people who are serious about wanting to do something. They come in and they start taking action, and we provide opportunities for collaboration. But we also have to be flexible according to the individual perspective. We might not know within the first few months where a company's baseline is, they might not be able to take meaningful action for the first year until they're ready to go. And sometimes that's made me feel a bit uncomfortable on the journey, and I think it's taken a while to kind of realize that that has to be part of the journey that we're all on as well, because if we say you come in and you're perfect within a few weeks, then we're going to limit ourselves to those who can already do it. How do you how do you two have a kind of response to that situation where we have a real mixture of levels of ability to take action with bright spots and challenges?

Christiana: [00:44:14] So two, two things come up for me, Tom, with that. The the first is and I know I'm really going out on a limb on this, but I feel pretty strongly about it. I don't think it's helpful to try to divvy up what has been achieved because of the climate pledge versus, and I use verses very softly, what decarbonisation would have would have been achieved otherwise. For me, I look at this as though I were the atmosphere and I look down and I go, what are the reductions that you're achieving. I am frankly not so interested in, are you doing it because of the climate pledge, or are you doing it because of something else? I just want to know what the number is going down. And the fact that we are allowing people to learn from each other and to share. It's evident from the numbers that we've just seen that the companies are able to reduce quicker. So either it's because of the group that we invite them in, or that they invite themselves into, or because of the sharings or whatever it is. But for me, ultimately, I just want to see the the carbon emissions go down. So I am not with you, Tom when you say, should we know whether it was because of the climate pledge or not, and, and and that's a pretty outlandish statement right there. Are you going to come back at me on that?

Tom: [00:45:54] No, I'm not going to come back at you because I think that actually my thinking is a little bit determined by how we as a society have kind of come at this problem. And actually, if you were to redesign it from scratch with the atmosphere in mind, you'd look much more systemically about influence and impact and facilitated emissions in other parts of the economy. But we've sort of we've approached it in a particular way. And I think I fell into the trap there in my thinking. And it's also how it's also how we tend to point fingers at each other in the climate movement, and then we don't do the best we could do for the atmosphere, which is your point. So I think it's a really helpful reminder that our role is to keep the objective in mind and just work knowing that we're doing good work and that we're having a positive impact and we're building momentum. I mean, that's the story of Paris as well, to be honest, yeah, that's really helpful. Kara, do you want to come in?

Kara Hurst: [00:46:43] Yeah, I love that. And I think that's actually the intent with which we started this, which is, you know, at the end of the day, companies are not monolithic, right. And they're made up of human beings, all of whom may have their own intrinsic motivation and take inspiration and or motivation from a number of different things. And, you know, may have signed up for a whole host of things. And so one of which, hopefully, is the Climate Pledge, and what value you extract from that or how that motivates you or why you're doing something and what that pushes you to do, or what you learn from it, or what value you take from it. You know, maybe it drives a company to do one specific thing with their transportation business, and that drives a whole set of initiatives that pushes them in one direction, and that drives a great set of initiatives, and that is responsible for one part of their decarbonisation journey. Fantastic, right. Or maybe it turns their leadership in a certain direction and it puts them charts a new course and that's great. Or maybe it just, you know, sets a course and then they take a whole bunch of other steps for another reason. Who knows. I don't think it matters at the end of the day, as long as we're seeing the results that you talked about earlier, Tom, and as long as we're seeing genuine action, which is what we want to see from the companies. As long as we're seeing, you know, operational decarbonization steps being taken, as long as we're seeing transparency in the measurement and reporting. So those kinds of credibility steps are important right. But the why of it you're never really going to know. And I don't think it matters. So as long as we're taking these steps as companies and that kind of evidence is there. And then the the ultimate results are also showing up. Great. I'm with you for the atmosphere.

Tom: [00:48:46] Amazing. Well, I mean, this has been a fantastic conversation and I think a celebration of where we've come to. So this time next week, we're going to have a big summit in New York where there's going to be amazing speakers coming together to help signatories think about what's next. If you're a company that's looking to take ambitious action, then we hope you will join us in the next phase of the Climate Pledge. Kara, I have a final question, which you've answered before, but this time you're going to answer it in the context of the Climate Pledge. But just before we get to it, anything that either of you would like to say before we wrap up?

Christiana: [00:49:16] I'm very intrigued about your question.

Tom: [00:49:18] I think you've heard it before. Okay, so, Kara, when you think now, five years into the Climate Pledge, you look forward. We've made the progress we have. It's encouraging, but there's more to go of course, that's always true on climate change. What makes you feel outraged and what gets you optimistic?

Kara Hurst: [00:49:36] I should have anticipated this.

Tom: [00:49:38] You should have.

Kara Hurst: [00:49:41] I'm honestly outraged that we continue to spend so much time spinning on things that don't matter.

Tom: [00:49:52] Yeah.

Kara Hurst: [00:49:52] And I know we've had this conversation amongst the three of us quite a bit, but for those of you who have not been a part of.

Christiana: [00:50:01] About 3566 times.

Kara Hurst: [00:50:04] Yes, but for those listeners who have not been in the conversation of the three of us for that. What I mean by that is, you know, there's there's a lot of finger pointing about the perfectionism of how this is being done or, you know, how companies are sharing information, how they're not sharing information or how they're doing it right or how they're doing it wrong instead of focusing on doing. And I am someone who is personally passionate. And I think at a company that is personal, that is corporately passionate about action and results and data and taking things and making them operational. And so I am interested in action and whether or not that's successful or a failure in just making steps forward. And I think the amount of spinning and finger pointing and just discussion about the how and not the what is a complete waste of time. And we have spent in the environmental movement and the sustainability movement far too much time, spinning wheels on that and that is continues to outrage me so that, I would love to figure out a way through and beyond, and I'm outraged, I'm getting outraged thinking about it.

Tom: [00:51:28] If you if you want to do a podcast series about that, you're most welcome, yeah, we're with you.

Kara Hurst: [00:51:32] I need to move on to the optimism part right.

Tom: [00:51:34] Okay.

Kara Hurst: [00:51:37] And I'm most optimistic about the incredible response to the pledge and the progress that we've made and all that we've seen in five years. When I think about this, and I was talking to the team about this here. You know, we we are constantly self-critical here, and we're constantly knowing that this is so much more we could do. And there's so much, you know, we could go faster in things and we could we wish we, you know, could move stuff along and get to scale quicker. But five years to think about where we were and how far we've come. It is incredible. It's incredible to see how far that we've come. And that gives me huge amount of hope for what the next 15 years will bring and beyond. And I think that if we continue on this path, I think we're going to I think we're going to do incredible things together as a collective, I think we have a real shot at making an enormous difference in the world.

Tom: [00:52:32] Love that answer.

Christiana: [00:52:33] Hear, hear.

Tom: [00:52:34] Kara, such a pleasure to talk to you. We'll see you next week in New York. Congratulations to any company listening who's part of the pledge for being part of it, we are thrilled to be working with you. We're excited for what's next. We'll see you in New York. Listeners, thanks for joining us.

Kara Hurst: [00:52:46] I can't wait to celebrate together.

Christiana: [00:52:48] See you soon.

Tom: [00:52:49] See you soon.

Kara Hurst: [00:52:50] Bye.