260: The UK is Back!

Christiana: [00:01:43] Yeah, I just wanted to start before we go to his interview, and I loved where he ended up because it was exactly what I was thinking. So it's so good when you have confirmation of thought from someone else. But before we go to that, could I, and you mentioned it, Tom, you mentioned it in the interview. But honestly, how exciting that the UK has chosen Rachel Kyte to take on, honestly, a very difficult job.

Tom: [00:02:14] Absolutely.

Christiana: [00:02:15] Very, very difficult because mobilising finance, whether it is private finance or whether it is public finance or in fact as blended finance, which is ultimately the the only way out is incredibly difficult, incredibly difficult in this moment, especially in which there are so many demands on tight, both public budgets and and also where private finance is still struggling to make the transition. So, so a a brilliant choice to, to rope in Rachel, who we have known for years haven't we.

Paul: [00:02:59] Years and years, friend of the show, friend of us all.

Christiana: [00:03:02] I don't know when you met her, but I met her when she was at the World Bank.

Paul: [00:03:06] Me, too.

Christiana: [00:03:06] Where she was vice president.

Paul: [00:03:08] Copenhagen 2009.

Christiana: [00:03:09] Yeah, and she was vice president there for sustainable development. She was, vice president for business advisory services at the IFC. She then took on the SEforALL, which is a UN led effort to precisely get universal access to clean energy services to everyone around the world. And honestly, she has devoted her life to funnelling finance where it makes most difference and to really ensuring that we all remember that this transition is definitely for the global north, but also very importantly, for the global south and it is not an easy job. So I am thrilled that he has tapped her and am even more thrilled that she has accepted to take on this very difficult job.

Paul: [00:04:12] Well, indeed. And Rachel Kyte, one of my trustees for many years, she's a wonderful and incredibly experienced person. But I mean I think David Lammy is just such a unique politician, inasmuch as not only is he holding one of the highest offices, one of the top three, but his first major speech as Foreign Secretary was on climate change. And, you know, he chose a location that linked to a very powerful speech Secretary Kerry had given. And that sort of set us up for for the successes such as they were at Glasgow. And I think on the one hand, I agree entirely that he's very focused, just as you describe Christiana. But he's also got a big vision for how the private sector, which is 4/5 of the economy, will play a role. And, you know, he's just beginning to show his leadership just beginning to spread his wings. And it's so exciting to see what he'll be able to achieve in this critical position. You know, summoning up that international spirit that I think that you, Christiana, certainly are an expert in.

Christiana: [00:05:15] And, you know, he mentioned the Kew speech and you just said something referring to Kew. So for non UK people.

Paul: [00:05:23] Thank you.

Christiana: [00:05:24] Could I just say that Kew refers.

Tom: [00:05:26] It's not the letter Q yeah.

Paul: [00:05:27] It's not QAnon, it's definitely definitely not QAnon. 

Tom: [00:05:31] Kew gardens.

Paul: [00:05:32] Thank you Christiana. Yes, q with a k actually not a q.

Christiana: [00:05:34] I think it's important to, to clarify exactly that, that we are referring to Kew Gardens, which is one of the preeminent botanical gardens and research centres of the world, absolutely a top notch institution of of the UK that has always been there to understand, to research and understand the interconnectedness of the whole of nature. So a very symbolic place that he chose for this speech.

Tom: [00:06:13] Yeah. And, and we'll go to the speech in a minute. But just, I mean, to the interview in a minute. But just to add, I mean, I think your your tribute to Rachel there, Christiana was, was perfect and she, she also, of course, was an educator. She was Dean at Tufts University. She was also a professor at Oxford. And I think the final thing to say about her is I think she has the perfect personal style, those who don't necessarily know her, she is a very compelling and effective diplomat, but she really gets stuff done. So I think on the international stage, what's now needed to try and drive engagement and collaboration, I think she's going to be absolutely brilliant. So we'll come back after the conversation and talk a little bit more about what happened. Here's our conversation with UK Foreign Secretary David Lammy.

Christiana: [00:07:01] Hello.

Tom: [00:07:02] Foreign Secretary, how good to see you. We want to dive straight in. I know we don't have a huge amount of your time into some questions that come out of the speech you gave in London a couple of weeks ago. But first of all, we just wanted to say that your appointment of Rachel Kyte as special representative is inspired. We've loved her for decades. What a brilliant choice. So congratulations on that. And we're all wanting to support her in her role.

Christiana: [00:07:24] Indeed indeed.

The Rt Hon David Lammy: [00:07:24] Great, we're really excited. We had to, you know, we wanted to hit the ground running. We wanted to send a message that we were serious. We wanted someone with a network that already existed that the world already knows, and I think we've cracked it. So we're very, very excited.

Tom: [00:07:43] Wonderful. So, Foreign Secretary, this major speech you gave a couple of weeks ago, your first as Foreign Secretary, focused on the central role of climate and nature to global security. I'd love you to just talk to us about why, and first of all, we love that. That gets very high marks on our podcast that you integrated those two things. Why did you do that? And also how do you embed a focus on climate and nature in UK foreign policy?

The Rt Hon David Lammy: [00:08:05] Well, look, I wanted to do this speech, Tom, you'll know this, that I wanted actually to do this in opposition, and then the election was called and we had to get on with the election.

Christiana: [00:08:19] Good, because now you have an even bigger platform for it.

The Rt Hon David Lammy: [00:08:23] So it's been great to be able to sort of set this out in office. I've got to say, on one level, I mean, I'm staggered at the enthusiasm there is for me saying very clearly that, the climate emergency, and how we deal with it is a national security issue. And being absolutely clear that this is a priority for the UK Foreign Office, as well as colleagues, in our net zero department led by Ed Miliband and our obviously nature led by Steve Reed. But it's a bit depressing that people's reaction, is sort of surprise and joy because it's a signal that Britain had sort of departed from its climate leadership role. And the bottom line is, if you're sitting in any foreign affairs department in a global north country, one, you have a responsibility because there's a huge gap emerging, particularly in the climate finance space between the global North and the global South. Two because, if, if, if people are raising in the public policy realm issues like migration, issues like conflict, say in the Sahel region, then if we're in a world, sadly where there are more wars and therefore, people are dropping bombs and laying mines, then it's absolutely clear that climate is a is a foreign policy issue. And more importantly, that nature is essential. It's absolutely essential that we do all we can to protect the global community's biodiversity. So, I and look, I'm going to the Commonwealth, to CHOGM, to Samoa, in a couple of weeks time. I have no doubt when I look at the Commonwealth nations that are, more than almost half of those countries are small island states. For them, climate is existential. And therefore, you know, for all of those reasons, I set out, in that what I'm calling the Kew lecture, our direction of travel.

Tom: [00:10:47] Christiana?

Christiana: [00:10:48] Secretary Lammy, let me just go into the first part of what you mentioned, which is finance from the global North to the global South, as you very well know, perhaps better than many, finance into the global South has been the bane of international multilateral discussions and negotiations for years, if not for decades, and one of the main purposes, or expected, at least desired for outcomes of this COP that is coming up is actually to move the 100 billion number that was agreed to in Copenhagen, and that has been barely, barely exercised by global North countries to support Global South, to move it up A, B to accelerate not just public finance support, but also to use governments to attract much more private investment into the Global South. So with your naming of Rachel Kyte, I am assuming that, of course, you will be giving her very clear mandate as to what the UK's strategy is going to be, but would love to hear directly from you, how are you planning to face those two twin challenges?

The Rt Hon David Lammy: [00:12:24] Well, the first thing is, I want to be clear that my ambition and our ambition is that the UK will be the most supportive G7 country, on reforms to the global financial system. Clearly we have the City of London, which is hugely important in terms of leveraging the private investment that we need in this area. Clearly, we have an important role to play in terms of the MDBs particularly and clearly the truth of it at this time, and we may look at this in other questions, is, how can I put this, in democracies, very, very sadly, we're seeing between governments of different political stripes that, climate is still a contested issue. We're also seeing, sadly, that development is still a contested issue. What we have here in the UK now, following our general election is probably a decade of national renewal. And I'm really hoping that by the end of that decade, these debates that have been a little bit partisan in the last few years are settled, so that certainly in terms of the UK, we cannot have a government at the end of this story with a different stripe that rolls things back because things will have gone too far. I can't comment on other democracies, but I think I can say, because your listeners know that there are other elections around the globe.

Christiana: [00:14:09] A few.

The Rt Hon David Lammy: [00:14:11] Actually there are also elections to come in Europe, where, these things will be contested. It's hugely important that the UK is in a strong leadership role in relation to that. Now we have a tight fiscal envelope here domestically in terms of taxpayers funding and public public funding. But what I did say in response to a question at Kew about our own finances is that, meeting the 11.6 billion remains our ambition as we undertake our spending review. And you will have heard yesterday, Keir Starmer set out in his speech some really ambitious objectives, priorities in relation to, where he wants to position the UK, on climate finance as well. And he talked about a shipping tax, for example, which was, an innovative and new development. So that's our ambition. Leveraging the city, leading on MDBs, recognising that, I mean, you know, if you look at Africa, I think it's got 3% of global finance at the moment. I mean, this is just desperately left behind, and overall, north to south. The south has about 15%. So there's a lot to do if we're going to get equity into the debate about about climate finance and as you know, I have raised the issues of climate justice in the past. And so there's that equity debate really, really matters if you're serious.

Paul: [00:16:01] Foreign Secretary, it's wonderful what you say with such empathy. I want to pick up on a very specific issue, which is, the inspiring reference you make, and I use that word adviser, the inspiring reference you make to climate change being a national security issue, indeed a global security issue. And I just wondered, as you begin to think about how best to focus the engagement of the foreign policy community of the national security community on this issue, I wonder what government departments or organizations might best be responsible for managing the threat.

The Rt Hon David Lammy: [00:16:35] Well, governments have got to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. The truth is, if you're sitting in a Foreign Office here in the UK, as I am, the war in Ukraine, the war in Gaza, dominate your time. I have to say, both those conflicts do have aspects and elements of, climate insecurity actually attached to them in different ways. Ukraine is one of the global breadbaskets of the world, we've seen tremendous food scarcity as a result of that conflict, particularly. And there will be an extraordinary environmental damage as a consequence of Russia after that war. And water, is a contested issue in the Middle East. It's a real challenge. It's desperate to see polio creeping back into that country. And there are also issues about fossil fuel issues in the broader region. So, but notwithstanding that, what our ambition here in the UK is, that this is that our ambitions are owned not just by the Foreign Office, not just by Ed Miliband, they're cross Whitehall. And that's why it's so exciting to have a prime Minister that says that, our race to clean energy is one of our national ambitions and missions. And that growth is a mission. The first number one mission of this government and the race to clean energy is a key underpinning of that. You then get to our international obligations and commitments in relation to things like critical minerals. And you start to see a really full picture here, that, of course, makes this an important national security issue, and, but I don't want that to be just owned by the Foreign Office, you know, when I'm speaking to colleagues in our business and trade department, they're thinking about our industrial policy, and how we go about getting those clean jobs. When I'm speaking to development colleagues, or investment colleagues, they're thinking about how there are win wins in some of the partnerships that we can broker around the world. When I'm speaking to say to the Brazilians, they're saying, how can we pool our resources on new development spends in the Latin America, Caribbean, South American region. Really, really exciting stuff. So it's back to that business of leadership. We're in the 21st century so this is not about paternalism. It's about partnership with countries, but people, I get the sense that people have been desperate for the UK to be back in this role. I should just say, though, I don't want to be too partisan because of course, despite my criticisms of particularly the Rishi Sunak period in office on rowing back on climate, I pay tribute to colleagues like, Zac Goldsmith I think, who's done so much on biodiversity and really kept the flag flying.

Tom: [00:20:08] Yeah. Foreign Secretary, thank you so much for saying that. I mean, what a great answer and very gracious of you to mention that. I mean, I think agree, until Rishi Sunak's premiership, climate didn't become a kind of, you know, dog whistle politics where people were trying to divide each other. And we're thrilled and delighted that you're bringing back some bipartisanship and some unity. I was going to ask you how you maintain focus in a busy world, but you've answered that very well already by looking at the integration across government. And I know we're going to lose you in a minute. But I wonder as you step into this role that, I mean, you spent 14 years in opposition, you're now Foreign Secretary, you're following your passions. We know that you're deeply committed to climate justice. You're finding a way to integrate that into the foreign policy of a G7 country. And as you look forward to the years ahead, where you have such an opportunity now to have an impact. If you could just share with us what makes you feel optimistic, what makes you feel outraged, and what makes you feel optimistic?

The Rt Hon David Lammy: [00:20:58] Well, I'm obviously outraged that we're running out of time. I'm outraged morally that, it's still the case that global majority countries, global South countries, are feeling very left behind. I'm sorry, I've got three outraged. I'm outraged that this is still a political ping pong issue. But I'm doing all I can to make sure that it's certainly not an issue in the UK by the end of a Labour term. But I'm hugely excited by the appointments of not just our climate envoy, but also a nature envoy. We probably haven't talked enough about nature today because, you know, that's a real passion of mine, my wife and I run, are founders of Sophia Point in Guyana, wonderful conservation centre, in the Guiana Shield. I'm absolutely excited about COP 30 and the huge Brazilian contribution to nature and biodiversity. And I'm really optimistic about the UK, stepping back up in terms of national leadership, it's my privilege to know, Ed Miliband personally, to know Keir Starmer, personally, to know Steve Reed. And I just know that our government's going to make a really exciting contribution. And for me, it's as exciting as when Joe Biden won in the United States. And the United States really got serious. And I think that, his period in office will be seen as hugely consequential in terms of, this agenda. And, and I'm if we get ten years, then I think we're going to be a very consequential government. So that excites me hugely to play a role in it. I can't believe, Tom, that I get to play a role in it. And obviously with friends, friendships like the one that you and I have, you know, this is just a wonderful, wonderful opportunity that I'm excited about.

Tom: [00:23:08] Well, we're so thrilled you're there. So thank you for doing it. We're all behind you. We're very excited about your success. Thank you for joining us and we look forward to hopefully talking to you again.

The Rt Hon David Lammy: [00:23:17] Thank you. I hope I've not been too jet lagged and I've made some sense.

Tom: [00:23:20] No, this was absolutely perfect. 

Christiana: [00:23:22] You made brilliant sense.

Tom: [00:23:22] Thank you very much.

Paul: [00:23:24] Ten years Foreign Secretary, ten years.

Tom: [00:23:25] It's so nice to see you.

The Rt Hon David Lammy: [00:23:27] Okay. Thanks a lot, appreciate it.

Christiana: [00:23:30] Thank you very much.

The Rt Hon David Lammy: [00:23:30] See you soon friends, bye.

Paul: [00:23:31] Bye bye.

Tom: [00:23:31] Cheers, bye.

Tom: [00:23:39] What a privilege to sit down with David Lammy and hear his reflections on where he is in this remarkable role that he has, and his objective and intention to integrate climate and nature into foreign policy. What do Christiana maybe start with you, what did you what did you leave that conversation with?

Christiana: [00:23:54] Well, you know, in in addition to celebrating his views that we obviously very much agree with, I was having two deja vu's as he was speaking. The first deja vu. I don't know if you two remember when Justin Trudeau was elected in Canada and and the rallying cry of the new Canadian administration was Canada is back.

Paul: [00:24:20] Yeah.

Tom: [00:24:21] I still feel a bit emotional when I think about that with Catherine McKenna.

Christiana: [00:24:24] I so got the same feeling now, right, it's like the UK is back. I mean, it was just really delightful to feel that energy. It's it's almost as though he should have it tattooed on his forehead. You know, the UK is back. Yay! Fantastic. And the other deja vu that I was having. And he alluded to the administration of President Biden. I was having this deja vu to the many conversations that we had at the beginning of of the Biden administration about this extraordinary commitment that the new administration, the then new administration made to make climate change a mandate for all departments. Do you remember, we had a conversation, a very interesting conversation with Gina McCarthy.

Tom: [00:25:12] Gina McCarthy, wasn't it? We talked to. Yeah.

Christiana: [00:25:14] And she was explaining to us how the mandate was to not have climate change and in fact, even nature siloed into one of the US government departments. But rather, very clearly, President Biden said, no, this is something that touches upon all government issues and therefore an all government commitment, and that is clearly what he described now for the UK. So how how powerful that is and what a great example because honestly, I think all governments are going to have to do that. It's just unavoidable.

Paul: [00:25:55] And I watched a great speech he gave actually to the UK Labour Party conference, and that was absolutely his theme, Christiana, the UK's back. And he kept going through each of these different categories where the UK, you know, is in a position to show leadership, to support leadership Co-leadership model if you will. And so I think you picked up on that exactly right. But for me, the the abiding takeout I have from that interview is he's thinking long term. I had a sense that we have a grown up in the room, frankly, and that's important. And as the government integrates climate change and prioritizes it using language of national and global security threats, I can see another bulldozer knocking down those obstacles to action. And and, you know, a torchbearer who is going to be followed or accompanied on a journey and just couldn't have somebody more inspiring in the role, in my view. Early days, but you know, so far, so brilliant.

Tom: [00:27:00] Yeah, I can really agree with that, Paul. I think it's really tangible when you see someone thinking in a deeper way and long term. And I have to say, sort of speaking to him today. I've been friends with him for a long time. I remember a while ago when we were doing a, he was doing a TED talk on climate justice, and it's really interesting to see over a number of years, you know, anyone who wants to understand him, I would encourage you to go back and watch that TED talk, because it really shows you that he's come at this issue of climate and nature from a real love and a desire to support people and protect people, and that's led him. You're now seeing that evolve, and he now has the office by which he can be successful to try and take that impulse and that instinct and be really successful in the world. It's a beautiful thing to see, actually. So I'm feeling very encouraged about the UK. It's been it's been a painful few years watching the UK drop off the international stage. But you know, all the more, all the more joyful to see that it's back. And of course, it's not perfect and there'll be problems, but, it it feels really encouraging. And Paul's about to give us a small sermon by the looks of things.

Paul: [00:27:57] Lots of lots of different things you can use to get to the top. But wow, getting to the top using empathy, that gets my vote every time.

Tom: [00:28:04] There you go. All right. Great. Okay. So thank you, friends, and thank you particularly to Foreign Secretary David Lammy for joining us. And we are going to be bringing you some different kinds of episodes for the next few weeks. A couple of months ago, Christiana, Paul and I got together in London and recorded a series of episodes on How to Live a Good Life in a Climate Crisis. And that starts this Thursday. So we're going to leave you with that trailer. We hope you enjoy those episodes. Thanks for listening this week and we will be back and see you soon. Bye. 

Paul: [00:28:30] Bye for now.

Christiana: [00:28:31] Bye.