256: We're Back! With a Cascade of Climate News

Tom: [00:01:03] Oh, come on.

Paul: [00:01:04] That's nice.

Christiana: [00:01:05] Yeah. You're so much a part of my routine. Yeah. It's good to see you guys again.

Paul: [00:01:10] Good to see you, too. And I don't have to think of things to say. I have to think of what I'm, how I'm going to try and not say all the things I want to say to Tom. So just to say that we have different ends of the same problem.

Tom: [00:01:19] Oh, really, okay. I'm always trying to think about what I'm going to say. You're trying to think about how to curtail what you want to bring.

Paul: [00:01:22] Exactly, exactly. Otherwise, we have to have a longer and longer podcast.

Christiana: [00:01:25] Haven't you noticed that, Tom?

Tom: [00:01:26] Yeah, I have noticed, I have noticed.

Paul: [00:01:27] Cascading, a friend of mine once called it.

Christiana: [00:01:30] Cascading, I always go like a big C in front of Paul when he starts to cascade.

Paul: [00:01:35] Indeed you do. Indeed you do. And from that C it leads to.

Tom: [00:01:39] No no no no no, yeah, yeah. So if anyone, actually it's a good thing to start with, if anyone would like to see Paul Dickinson cascading live, we've got an opportunity for you. So in a few weeks, it's now the 2nd of September, in a few weeks, we are going to be in New York for the UN General Assembly meeting, and on Tuesday the 24th, we are going to be doing a live podcast, so we'll all be there together with some fantastic guests. This is going to be a continuation of what we kicked off when we were in London, where we did a live podcast on Mission 2025, and this is the next part of that, we'll be talking to with, more is to come on all of this. But if you would like to join us and if you're going to be in New York, Christiana, how do people come to the podcast?

Christiana: [00:02:19] I have no idea.

Tom: [00:02:22] That's why I asked you.

Christiana: [00:02:23] You asked the wrong person.

Paul: [00:02:25] This is immaculate planning, it's the, it's the preparation.

Tom: [00:02:27] Let's see if Paul knows, how do people get to the podcast?

Paul: [00:02:30] Oh, just check the show notes and all the details will be there. There you go.

Tom: [00:02:33] There you go. That is the answer to all questions. Okay, now we're going to kick off with what we're going to talk about. But just tell us one thing you've been doing over the break. Come on, what's life been apart from missing us, Christiana, what have you been doing?

Christiana: [00:02:46] Well, do you guys know what PTSD is?

Tom: [00:02:51] Yes, post-traumatic stress.

Paul: [00:02:53] Disorder. Yep yep yep.

Christiana: [00:02:54] Yeah, well, I have been having for the full month that I haven't been seeing you on a regular basis. I've been having water stress traumatic syndrome because it's rainy season and we just have buckets and buckets and buckets of rain. And I live in a very old house, well, old for Costa Rican terms, 30 years, I know, don't laugh the Brits, 30 years in in.

Paul: [00:03:24] That's a new build here.

Christiana: [00:03:25] In Britain is very new. But for us that is a very old house. And as everyone will know, I live on the beach. Now, I have had constant constant inundations, floods of my house, which I thought originally came through the roof. But once I did four times of roof repair and finally repaired the problem in the roof, then I noticed that I had an additional flood that was coming through the door between the garage and the kitchen at the next downpour of rain. And then when I finally fixed that, then I realized that I had a third source of water every time it rained, which came through the front of the house that faces the ocean. So I have been dealing with water constantly, constantly, and getting to what I would call a new relationship with water, because I have noticed that it is a beautiful element that I really love when it is near.

Tom: [00:04:32] In some places.

Christiana: [00:04:33] Yes, when it is contained, so to speak, in the places and in the moments in which I, in my little head, have decided is the normal place for water. So in the end of all of this, I have actually hopefully fixed the floods, but also I'm so much more humble about water. Just recognizing it will go wherever it wants.

Tom: [00:05:00] Was it, was it a particularly intense rainy season this year in Costa Rica? I mean, I'm sure it's always intense, but do you know, was it more rainy than normal rainy?

Christiana: [00:05:07] Oh, we're just getting into the worst part of it.

Tom: [00:05:09] Oh, this is just the beginning, ok right. 

Christiana: [00:05:11] Or the best I should say. The best part of the rainy season is going to be in October, so stay tuned for more water stories.

Tom: [00:05:19] Okay.

Paul: [00:05:19] I have a strong sense of Gaia wanting to make herself known to you, Christiana. And don't forget about me. Here I am. I'm the big hydrological cycle.

Christiana: [00:05:26] Indeed, she has been very. She actually took the place of the two of you because I was talking to her constantly over the past month.

Paul: [00:05:35] There you go, she's a great teacher.

Tom: [00:05:37] Paul, what about you?

Paul: [00:05:38] Well, what have I done. I went to Berlin to see my friends, and I also was rolling my eyes at the incredible bits of news, we had an extraordinarily tricky thing in the UK. We had a whole bunch of riots, and Elon Musk said that civil war was inevitable in the UK. And I've got a funny feeling a lot of people over here are not going to buy Teslas anymore. But one of the things that I really enjoyed is that social scientists here, absolutely seriously said that Elon Musk appears to have purchased Twitter and renamed it X, and he then appears to have been radicalized by his own social media platform. So they're suggesting that he's he's sort of fallen under the spell of the the strange thing.

Tom: [00:06:19] Spent too long on his own platform.

Paul: [00:06:20] Exactly, and.

Christiana: [00:06:21] Isn't that what he wanted to avoid when he bought it?

Paul: [00:06:24] Well, he's not doing a very good job, is all I can say. And apart from that, yeah, I've been having a very nice summer, and I've been thinking about how, have you ever heard of Milton Friedman's 1970 essay, The Social Responsibility of Businesses to Make a Profit?

Tom: [00:06:36] I rarely think of anything else.

Paul: [00:06:38] Well, I've concluded that the social responsibility of government is to make decarbonisation profitable. Now, what have you been up to over the summer, Tom?

Tom: [00:06:46] Wow.

Paul: [00:06:47] Beat that.

Christiana: [00:06:47] Yeah, beat that one.

Tom: [00:06:49] I will tell you one thing I've been doing. But also, I mean, just we're probably not going to cover it this week because it was so bonkers. But when, when Elon Musk interviewed Donald Trump on Twitter on X a few weeks ago and talked about the fact that we don't have to worry too much about climate change, because it's only once you get to a thousand parts per million that you begin to get headaches. So therefore we've got a while. I mean, just the the sheer scientific I mean, also he's smarter than that right.

Christiana: [00:07:12] Lunacy, lunacy.

Tom: [00:07:13] Lunacy. I've been, you know, a number of years ago with other people around the table, I've been at a dinner with Elon Musk, and he understands this issue. He's not as stupid as he pretends to be with that comment. I mean, it made me so angry.

Paul: [00:07:23] But in that same interview, in that same interview, Trump said that sea level was rising, would rise an eighth of an inch over the next 400 years, it's rising an eighth of an inch pretty much each year.

Tom: [00:07:32] Yeah. You asked me what I've been doing. I mean, had a lovely holiday. Been here, home in Devon. Just with the family. One thing we did is we went to see the, we were in London for a while over the summer and went to see the Studio Ghibli play Spirited Away. It's an amazing film that you've probably most, listeners will have seen, and it was adapted for the stage in London, and it was only here for a few weeks. It was incredible. I think it was the best piece of theatre I've ever seen. We took the kids and we sat, we happened to be able to get tickets in a lottery right at the end, which put us right in the front row and this incredible, just like, enveloping of this beautiful, like, Japanese otherworldly exploration of kind of what it means to be human and how you grow up and how you become brave. I really enjoyed it. So let's dive into it, where should we where should we start? So much has been going on. I suppose we probably should start in the US. Christiana, I know you've been thinking a lot about this. Anything to kick us off with? 

Christiana: [00:08:28] Well, am I allowed to make a self-serving statement?

Tom: [00:08:32] You go right ahead.

Paul: [00:08:32] You're encouraged to do so.

Tom: [00:08:34] Yeah. Join Paul Dickinson, I mean.

Tom: [00:08:35] Well, thank you.

Paul: [00:08:37] Well, we make them off each other. I don't think we make them ourselves. Maybe a little bit. Anyway, Christiana.

Christiana: [00:08:43] So I have been watching how she is being careful about recognizing the work of the president that she has been working under, and also putting a certain distance and pointing to the future that the future can be better or different. She is communicating outrage, serious outrage about so many issues that are really front and center for the US public, such as women's rights, abortion, Roe versus Wade. It is so interesting how she's communicating outrage about issues that are really gut issues, right, where people are just it gets them in the gut. And then she turns to optimism, and then she turns and she goes, we can do so much better. We can have so much better country. We can have so much better world. And I just think that that balance that she is, is having is so interesting. And so the self-serving interpretation is that she is doing outrage and optimism, maybe even better than we are guys. So there you go. There's the gauntlet on the table to you.

Tom: [00:10:06] Paul. Anything to add?

Paul: [00:10:07] I can't think, no I can't, I agree so much has changed. There's still, the stakes are so unbelievably high, and we maybe can come on to how much, you know, government and policy matters. It's very exciting time for for Harris Waltz. But, I mean, it's not all plain sailing because, Kamala Harris is having to walk a bit of a line on climate change. Is that right, Tom?

Tom: [00:10:30] Well, that's an interesting point. I mean, you know, I think that, you know, many people were thrilled at the momentum generated at the Democratic National Convention. And there's just this sense of optimism and possibility. And the polls are moving in a good direction for Kamala Harris, but she didn't really talk that much about climate change, and that was picked up in a variety of maybe smaller, more niche media outlets. I think there's a few reasons for that, and we can maybe pull them apart a little bit. I think one would be because she got the nomination without going through a primary process that actually led to her not needing to set out her stall on more traditional left of centre agendas, but I also think and the data sort of holds this out, there was an interesting poll that came out from Monmouth University that climate is not such a priority to voters now that it was in previous elections, right. I mean, we saw 2021, 56% said that it was a very serious problem. That's gone down to 46% now. Support for government action has dropped from 66% to 59%. I mean, those are relatively small shifts there, but they're consequential. And I think what we're seeing, we can maybe get into talking about why that's the case, but do either of you have a theory as to why there wasn't more on climate at the DNC?

Christiana: [00:11:46] I totally agree with that. I think as she has been saying, she's the underdog here. She's fighting her way up to the top, and she has chosen to fight her way to the top on the back of the issues that are absolutely front and centre for the US public, such as abortion, border security, economy, inflation and gun control. Those are the issues that people are really most concerned about. And there's no doubt where she stands on climate change. I think, me, I don't think she needs to come out with climate change tattooed on her forehead because it's not going to get her any extra votes right now because the other issues are so much more salient. And honestly, her number one priority here is to be elected. That's her number one priority. So she is playing to get more votes out. She's trying to mobilize U.S. citizens who would not have gone out to vote. She is trying to mobilize the undecided. And both of those populations wouldn't necessarily be motivated by climate change. Now, we know that she's responsible. And Tim Walz also very responsible on climate change. But I think from from my perspective, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Her position on climate is not broke, right. Neither is Tim Walz. And so the more important thing for them, obviously, is to get elected.

Paul: [00:13:31] But here's the thing. There are tens of thousands of jobs, for example, related to fracking in swing states that are critical for the election. And, you know, I think she was recently asked for some clarification on that. She's she's you know, it's a very difficult line to draw. It's not being made easier for her because big oil is coming out and pushing Kamala Harris. So for example, in the FT last week headline big oil calls on Kamala Harris to come clean on her energy and climate plans. Now, I was trying to get my head around this big oil calls on Kamala Harris to come clean on her energy and climate plans, and it's the one sidedness of it. Well, I just you know, when I saw that headline, I kind of thought to myself, really, does big oil really want to push on, on, on, on Kamala Harris.

Tom: [00:14:20] Yeah. But there's another way of looking at this. I mean, I remember going for a walk with George Monbiot, before the election here in the UK, and he was relating to the fact that, there were many people in the UK lamenting the fact that the Labour government, who were at that point running up to an election in the UK weren't really talking about climate and that many people were saying, well, you know, they're focusing on the issue relevant to voters, but when they get in, they'll, they'll govern with climate as a priority. I mean, you can also make the argument it's not very democratic that you hide these issues from the voters until you're in power, and then you talk about them more effectively. So that was the argument that he was making to me, is that actually, if you get to a point.

Christiana: [00:14:58] Not very democratic, could you say more about that, Tom?

Tom: [00:15:01] Well, that you would sort of say, I know I'm going to have to do some unpopular things, but I'm just not going to talk about them until I'm in office, and then I'll, I'll break them out. So that would be just to balance this conversation, as I said, I kind of net out where you are, but we've gotten to a point now where we're having to edit the things we talk about because populations aren't able to accept that we need to do tough things. Right, where to next?

Paul: [00:15:26] I have something which is I just want, I wanted to talk a little bit about how incredibly important I think it is that, well, who's who's in power, elections matter, and I'm going to draw a little bit of attention to Carbon Brief, actually, because they produced a brilliant article about the New Labour Party. And I'm just going to give you like a couple of things the New Labour Party are doing because.

Tom: [00:15:46] This is the UK, the new labour government in the UK.

Paul: [00:15:48] The UK, the new labour government in the UK. I mean, they're putting, I don't know, £8.3 billion in the next Parliament that will partner with the trade unions to build a clean power, turn Britain into a clean power superpower. They're building a national energy system operator, which is what every everybody needs to make things move really fast. They're accelerating permitting, which is incredibly important. They're producing this great British energy company that's going to put 600 million a year into grants and 400 million a year, a year into low interest loans to build low carbon community energy projects, or what a friend of mine once called own our own power. They've got a beautiful meta statement, which is they're going to be focusing on ambitious, measurable, long term objectives that provide a driving sense of purpose for the country. And all of these policies are part of that. I mean, I could go on incredibly long. Just two more highlights. They have a strategy for getting, they're putting $7.3 billion into a national wealth fund to go into infrastructure. They want for every pound of government money, £3 to come in from the private sector. So that's building this sort of geosystem strategy to efficiently decarbonise. And they've also got money for, for warm homes, which is close to my heart because I love insulation. But I mean, don't you think it's just extraordinary when you look at the kind of scale of the, of the ambitions of, of a new government governing with a clear mandate, who really want to decarbonise the whole electricity grid by 2030. This is moving fast, and it's got the ability to unleash the the power of the private sector, maximizing shareholder value through Decarbonisation, you know, aligning the shareholders interests with the nation's interests. I think I'm going to start crying. I just think it's a beautiful thing and it shows elections matter. You've been close to this government, Tom. I mean, how do you aren't you aren't you excited by by the New Labour government and what they're going to achieve?

Tom: [00:17:46] Yeah no, I absolutely am. I mean, I think there's so I would say if there's one thing they got elected on, it's the promise of building things again. And actually, there's a sense that the UK has begun to atrophy under 14 years of conservative rule and that they need and that we need to be more ambitious. We need to be bolder, we need to build things and actually take the country into the next, into the future. And happily, with Ed Miliband's leadership that's centred around the low carbon economy, I think there's some real headwinds. I mean, I think, though, that, you know, the UK population is pretty, demoralised with people who are sort of running the system. And pretty quickly, I think the Labour government is going to come to be identified with being the system. And I think part of what will happen there is that the way the media is in the UK, they'll keep just like poking on about, you know, time of national stringency, what about costs, what about costs without recognizing this is an investment for the future. And I think the other thing they're going to have to guard against is local opposition.

Tom: [00:18:44] You know, they're going to need to build pylons and power lines and wind turbines. And when those two things hit each other, you know, short term cost, local opposition, then I really hope and I believe also actually, that the government will have a really thoughtful they need to marry that ambition with a really thoughtful communications plan. I mean, in the in the 50s and 60s, when the UK was building a lot of things, there were national communication plans about why we were doing this, what this meant. There needs to be much more of a sense of collective direction, and I worry that the population in the UK is now very fragmented. And if you come in too hard with big infrastructure projects, you're going to precipitate a big blowback that's going to be very easy to attack. So I think it's going to be I am excited, but I also think a lot of work needs to be done to bring domestic, this is not only true for the UK, domestic populations need to be brought along with progressive, ambitious global agendas, and those two pieces need to happen really thoughtfully together.

Christiana: [00:19:44] And could I say I agree with that, Tom. And could I say yes, communications and communication is not enough, there has to be a real good interweaving of here we are contributing to the big global long term project through immediate now local benefit. If that piece is not there. 

Tom: [00:20:06] Hopefully drive the price down, people warm in winter.

Christiana: [00:20:09] If the local benefit is not there and if people don't see that their lives are getting better through those decisions and those investments, it just ain't going to happen.

Tom: [00:20:18] Totally.

Christiana: [00:20:18] So, you know, we have to bring these two things that we have seen for so many years as having this huge gap between them, what we have to do globally in the long term versus sadly, what is going on locally now that's got to go. We have to bring these two things together because otherwise it just doesn't happen.

Paul: [00:20:40] Yeah, yeah. And it's so true. But I mean, just one thing I would say about permitting, for example, you know, I've lived by the sea for 30 years, and I look out at the sea and then, you know, a few years ago, a £1.3 billion wind farm appeared, and it's going to be there for the rest of my life. And it's absolutely beautiful. And I'm a climate change person, and that's the best thing that's ever happened. But, you know, it was a surprise. You know, it was a change. But I do believe that we've got a national mood in favour of all of this. I want to hand over to you, Tom, but I want to just give one little counter bit of bad news, because I think it's tremendously interesting. And it's a little bit related to this ESG theme. And it relates to actually a big conglomerate called Glencore. And they've decided on the on the 8th of August, it was reported they've decided not to get rid of their coal interests. Okay. They're going to keep them because they're making so much cash from coal and the chief executive said something very interesting. He said the pendulum has swung on ESG over the last 12 months, and investors recognise that cash is king. And I think one thing I want to just draw everyone's attention to is the pendulum swinging on on ESG, whatever that means. Doesn't mean that climate change has got any better. And and I want.

Christiana: [00:21:47] To the contrary.

Paul: [00:21:48] I want people to be very, very aware that the sort of culture wars over ESG are being used by people who have decided to walk back on the reality of climate change. Some analysts, Barry Norris, was reported in the FT as saying Glencore has probably realised that ESG is a fad, hence the decision not to spin off the super profitable coal business. ESG may be a fad. Climate change is not a fad. Don't get confused and don't fall for the deliberate confusion.

Tom: [00:22:14] I would like to spend a minute or two on that issue, because I think that's a really important thing that you've just scratched the surface of there, Paul, and it points to something that I wasn't necessarily going to talk about today, but I think is really consequential. If you look over the summer, there's been a whole bunch of kind of hand-wringing, particularly in the corporate reporting space. So Science Based Targets Initiative many people will remember before the summer came out and said they were considering allowing more offsets in a corporate reduction plan. That led to a massive pushback from across all of the SBTI organization, who then started, some of them started leaking some things to the press. The CEO of SBTI left, and now what we have is kind of conspiracy theories existing around who created this, where are the power centres. We've got media articles coming out saying, but how many offsets and who's pushing for what, and is there a corporate agenda. And I just think that they're laughing at us on the other side of this, because we're getting to a point now where we're not focusing on collective action and trying to do something serious. We're instead engaged in kind of a witch hunt around purity. And I feel like I've seen this before in 2006, 2007 when this happened and the end result was the air all went out of the balloon, people stopped making commitments. I think there's a big and meaningful conversation to be had, but now we've gotten into the finger pointing negative side of things. I think actually we are in danger of the momentum in the private sector space really being lost. And it's heartbreaking because many people have spent a long time really investing in this space and trying to make it happen, yeah.

Christiana: [00:23:52] Yeah, totally agree with you, Tom. Totally agree with you. It is exceedingly concerning my, I guess, stubbornly optimistic interpretation is that those who would want to delay climate responsible policy have hyped this up, the the ESG backlash that we've seen started in the United States and is now filtering out beyond the United States, because I think they can't come out and deny the science of climate change very credibly anymore. And so now they're trying to figure out where is where is the soft part of the beast, and they have targeted ESG policies and those leaders in the financial and corporate sectors that have been responsible on ESG. So from that perspective, Paul, I take a different view from you. I don't think that ESG is a fad. I think it is the responsible avenue toward climate compliance or toward achieving climate stability, whether it's called ESG or whether it's called something else, we know that there are some in the financial world who no longer call it ESG, they call it transition, what is it called?

Paul: [00:25:24] Yes they do, transition plans.

Christiana: [00:25:25] Transition plans or transition investment. And that's fine. I'm not married to any particular name, but they are aligned. The fact that we do have to decarbonize the global economy, no matter what you call it, is just a fact. It just can't, you know, it is, it cannot be the object of politicization and and discussion, frankly, whether it's ESG or some other name, whatever. Let's just keep it pretty clear. We have to decarbonize ASAP.

Paul: [00:26:09] It's an apolitical reality in avoidable. And it's governments, investors and corporations together right.

Christiana: [00:26:15] That that is just unavoidable. So I just I just think that they are seeing they who do want to delay policy are realizing that we are moving forward in ways that are too slow for the science, but are too quick for them. And and that what they want to do is to, to attack from so many different perspectives, personal attacks, policy attacks, to try to delay policy. So, I mean, I just come down saying how totally irresponsible.

Paul: [00:26:50] Well, isn't it just isn't it just. And where are we on policy, Tom?

Tom: [00:26:54] Yeah. No, no thank you though for that, Paul, because I think that's a really and I'd love to delve more into this, because if there's one thing that really breaks my heart, it's when actually a whole bunch of people that really want to see the right thing happen for understandable, but sort of perfectly avoidable reasons end up spending their lives yelling at each other about the way in which we do it and and thereby, you know, we all go over the edge of the waterfall together. So anyway, that's a that's a broader conversation. So the next few months are going to be pretty consequential on policy. And we're I mean regular listeners will be will be used to this by now. We're into the early September. We've got UN General Assembly, we've got the COP in Azerbaijan this year, we have the added COP, which is coming up in Cali, in Colombia that we will no doubt delve into in some real detail in future because it's going to be potentially very consequential as well.

Paul: [00:27:46] The biodiversity COP right?

Tom: [00:27:47] The biodiversity COP. But just just to sort of set this out a bit, Antonio Guterres has been on the road, setting the stage for the next few months. He has recently been in the South Pacific, calling on governments to fight the disease of fossil fuels and issuing what he called a climate SOS. I think we will see him crank up that language over the course of the next few weeks up to the event, which he is going to be hosting in New York in a few weeks time. In the actual formal UN process, we are now in a narrowing path towards COP 29, which is going to be held in Baku in Azerbaijan in November, that is going to be a critical, critical COP for finance, and at the end of last month, there was an input paper put into the UNFCCC, that looked at different packages and proposals for the coming years that would enable sufficient deployment of finance to facilitate further investment in action by countries. So this is what this is all going to be about. And we'll delve in in the next few weeks to what that package is going to look like, what it needs to contain, why it's important politically. But one of the outcomes, ideally from that process is going to be the next round of commitments from countries called NDCs, nationally determined commitments in UN speak, but basically national plans to reduce emissions, and the next round are intended to be 2035 targets. Now, interestingly, in the next few weeks, we're expecting to see the first tranche of those targets that will very much set the tone for what comes after.

Tom: [00:29:27] So we're expecting to see one from Indonesia, their nationally determined commitment is expected to land at COP 29, which would include peaking emissions in 2030 for general sectors and 2035 for energy. We're expecting to see one from Japan, which is looking at a linear emissions reduction pathway from 2013 levels to 2050, which would create a 60% reduction by 2035. Brazil, of course, hosting the COP next year, said it will have a rough target ready in time for Baku and that it will be 1.5 degree aligned. Azerbaijan, the host of the COP, will also come out with their plan and China is also expected to come out, and we will learn more about that in the coming weeks and months. So a policy document that recently came out, it said it's going to move from energy intensity control to carbon intensity control from 2026 and introduce a carbon cap after the emissions peak, which is putting in place much of the mechanisms that will enable them to really reduce, which is, of course, what's needed. And John Podesta is going there in the next few weeks. So this is, I realize, quite a lot of information, but just wanted to share with you a kind of sense of where we are. These national plans are in some ways the cornerstones of what we need to actually ensure keep moving forward at the COPs. They're they're very important. And we'll kind of find ways to bring you that story as it evolves and sort of really mark the way towards our transition by 2050 to net zero. But Christiana, you will obviously have a lot to say on this issue?

Christiana: [00:31:03] Well, I was just going to say if anybody can still breathe after all of that. Tom, you're getting to the cascading portion.

Paul: [00:31:13] Yeah, you see, yeah.

Christiana: [00:31:14] That was quite a cascade. That was quite a cascade. But but I just as though that weren't enough. I just wanted to add two points to that. Very interesting to see what China is going to do, because China has typically traditionally for decades, always under-promised and overdelivered. And and there is now a sense that that is fantastic, that China always over delivers and delivers its target much quicker than it promises, but that this may be the time in which they can't do that anymore, because that they have to really be much more aggressive, if you will, about the targets they put on the table. Because so many countries will be looking to China for leadership on ambitious targets. So very interesting this trip that John Podesta is going to make to China with that message, the message is, you've done a great job, under-promising and overdelivering. It is time to perhaps look at changing that tactic. So let's see what happens with China. But you know, Tom, the other thing that I wanted to put on the table is that all of this that I, you know, put into the technicalities box, is happening in the context of something that frankly, I have much more energy for and that I find much more inspiring with all pardon to my wonderful climate, technical colleagues and friends. And that is the fact that this year, the United Nations is organizing a Summit Of The Future, to be held September 22 and 23, in New York.

Christiana: [00:32:59] I mean, how have we not done this before. How is it possible that we have not forced ourselves to see with the eyes of those who will come after us, because that's what we're playing on here. We are playing the destiny and the quality of life, of future generations. That's what we're playing. And so the fact that the UN is calling for a summit of the future, the fact that there has been a declaration on future generations that has been drafted by the governments in consultation with drum roll, indigenous and youth groups. Hallelujah right, hallelujah. Because those are the ones who are going to be most affected by everything that we're deciding now. And they are working on a pact for the future. Well, it's about time. It's about time that we actually come around the fire and look at ourselves and say, what is the legacy that we want to leave for future generations, and how are we affecting that. We are trying with this summit of the future, we're trying to break open or break through, if you will, this addiction that we have to short termism and begin to focus on where the impact is really going to be felt, which is mid and long term. So to me, yes, all the all the NDCs are important. Yes, absolutely are COPs. But let's see it in the context of what really matters.

Tom: [00:34:43] Thank you Christiana, totally.

Christiana: [00:34:44] Future generations.

Paul: [00:34:45] But let me offer a positive thought there. You're absolutely right as ever Christiana.

Christiana: [00:34:49] That was a positive thought Paul.

Paul: [00:34:53] Let me add another complimentary coffee and coffee and sugar or coffee and cream or cookies and cream or, you know, whatever it is, combination. Another happy bit of news. And that is this whole, we always forget in the environmental movement that we're in an evolutionary process. So investors have been going on about this for a long time, and they've got to the point where their net zero commitments and then transition plans. The corporations have been going on this with their science based targets, and now they've arrived at transition plans. The government's now getting much more serious with their nationally determined contributions or nationally determined commitments. And they're all coming together to provide a kind of a platform, I would say, a very, very creative space where that spirit of the future can manifest Christiana and we can make apolitical efficient changes to do what we've always known we need to do. And it'll be great. It'll be positive. It'll be a time of huge economic opportunity. Are we right, Tom?

Tom: [00:35:49] We're right, we're absolutely right. And I completely.

Paul: [00:35:52] Do we agree with each other in a in a kind of nodding our heads off kind of way?

Tom: [00:35:55] Well the slow nod I always feel is my core skill. So I will deploy it now. Absolutely, yeah. Although the listeners can't see it. Right, okay. I think that's probably it for this week. I'm very pleased to be back into a regular schedule of seeing you two on a weekly basis. We'll be back next week, and then we'll be doing it live in New York in a few weeks time. We're looking forward to seeing you all. We had a lot of fun in London. Please come and join us. And no doubt we'll be seeing many friends, as many people will be in New York. So lovely to see you both.

Paul: [00:36:21] Great to be with you again, bye for now.

Tom: [00:36:22] Have a great week, thanks for listening, bye.

Christiana: [00:36:25] Bye.

Christiana: [00:36:30] Oops sorry, guys. Sorry sorry sorry. We just hit the stop record button just a few seconds too early because after we finished, we in Costa Rica received the amazing news that Sherman Guity Guity the Costa Rican Paralympic racer won a gold medal at the Paris Paralympics for his record race of 100m in 10.65 seconds, which not just gave him the gold medal but also broke the Paralympic record. So we are absolutely thrilled as you can imagine, the entire country is celebrating him. This is the way to conquer barriers, my friends. And if you haven't seen the video, we're going to put it in the show notes because you have to see these amazing five men run or sprint, these 100m in less than 11 seconds. And Tom and Paul, my friends, I am so sorry. I do apologize, but here we are with Costa Rica at the top once again.