257: What If We Get it Right?

Christiana: [00:01:01] Oh my gosh, truly. I mean, I was just telling you that I don't remember having been as deeply inspired as and and moved. I mean, I've been moved to tears, which, as you know, is not difficult for me. But still, I've been moved to tears during all of these 4 or 5 days that I have been in Paris here, at the Paralympics. Because you have to I mean, you have to picture, right, a swimmer with no arms, who jumps in the pool and swims with the strength of his torso that he has obviously trained incredibly and beats the world record. Not the Paralympic record, the world record, meaning beats all able bodied swimmers.

Tom: [00:01:58] That's amazing.

Christiana: [00:02:00] I mean, it's just mind boggling, unbelievable. I saw the final of women's wheelchair basketball, Netherlands against the US and Netherlands won in the end, but still all of them. These women playing basketball from their wheelchair with incredible speed, back and forth, back and forth, up to the up to the court, getting these baskets in, blocking each other to to the point where they block each other with such force that the wheelchair turns over and either their teammates or somebody from the other team comes over. And with the wheelchair, they have developed this, this, system of with the wheelchair picks the other person back up into her wheelchair. Or this amazing woman who has no arms, and she does archery because she shoots with her foot. She holds the bow with her foot. I mean, it's just story after story after story. And you know what my conclusion or my life lesson derived from all of this was. Yes, the physical training to do this with muscles, that are different because they train the strength of the muscles differently than completely able bodies do. But the training doesn't begin with I'm going to train this sport. The training or the transformation rather begins in their head, because they have to conquer the socially imposed view and narrative that because you have only one arm or no arms, or you can't see that therefore you are condemned to be in the victim box the rest of your life. First they have to say no, I understand that I was, and many of them have been born with these conditions. Some of them have been put into these conditions later in life because of sicknesses or accidents or something and say, despite this, or rather, with the strength of this, I am going to train myself into this sport and I'm going to become an Olympian. I mean it the the transformation in their head, in their mind, in their heart is to me even more inspiring than what they do with their bodies.

Tom: [00:04:46] Yeah.

Paul: [00:04:47] I mean, Christiana, if I could just say. I think it's all sorry to say it, but lessons for climate change, overcome the socially imposed narrative. I am going to become an Olympian. We can do it.

Tom: [00:04:59] Yeah.

Paul: [00:05:00] They have shown us it can be done.

Christiana: [00:05:02] Yes.

Tom: [00:05:02] Yeah, wow, what an inspiring story, Christiana. I love that, and you're right. I mean, obviously there's so many back stories, but in in all of them, the common thing is a moment where they decided not to be constrained by the physical reality that they're in and that they're going to overcome it. I mean, that's absolutely beautiful.

Paul: [00:05:18] And that started in their minds.

Tom: [00:05:18] Started in their minds.

Christiana: [00:05:20] Starts in their head.

Tom: [00:05:21] Yeah.

Christiana: [00:05:22] Starts in their head. Just really so amazing.

Tom: [00:05:25] Wow, thank you for sharing that. And we should talk more about the Olympics and the Paralympics as well and how they are, you know.

Christiana: [00:05:29] Yeah, yeah. So beyond beyond these amazing stories, beyond these amazing stories, hopefully we'll be able to do an episode in a couple of weeks or, I don't know, some maybe a month, about the fact that these Olympics, including the Paralympics, have been so sustainable, how they have been the most sustainable Olympics ever and the most socially inclusive ever. And I've read several articles that maybe even the cheapest ever. So let's look at that in a couple of weeks, when we can get somebody from the Olympic Committee to chat with us.

Tom: [00:06:10] Amazing. All right. And speaking of being in a tough spot and needing mental transformation, we've been experiencing some pretty concerning weather, haven't we.

Christiana: [00:06:19] Oh my gosh.

Tom: [00:06:19] Do you want to do you want to turn to that Christiana. And then we'll kick off that direction?

Christiana: [00:06:23] Uh, yeah. How, speaking exactly, good intro right, good intro. Because we are being faced with heat records. Or rather, we are breaking heat records year after year after year. So we already know that 2023 broke records. And now the summer of 2024 has been declared the hottest on record, and the whole year may in fact even become the planet's hottest year ever. It is, I don't even know what adjective to put there, it is, it is scary. It is humbling to recognize that, yes, so many people are making huge efforts, and we're not yet making a dent into yes, we're making a dent into emissions. But as we know, temperature is a factor of not the emissions of today, but rather the accumulated emissions. So I think that's what we have to understand, that we are working on two time lines here at the same time. One is the temperature that we measure every day, every week, every month, every year, But that that temperature is the result of accumulated emissions over the past decades. And that is why it is so difficult to make a dent into temperatures.

Tom: [00:07:58] Yeah, Paul?

Paul: [00:08:00] There was a there was a particular aspect of this. I mean, you know, like all of us, we you know, I've spent years looking at, you know, research about fires and floods and stuff. But I was really taken aback by this statistic from UNICEF, talking about 466 million children living in areas with now double the number of extremely hot days. And, you know, that's since 1960. This is an absolutely, a huge increase. And I just think that it's so, you know, it contextualizes it, that children are suffering directly now that children perform, you know, find it very hard when they're stressed, in terms of more than 35 degree heat days, you know, they're just in a in a terrible position we're inflicting on children suffering as a result of our inaction. And that warning from UNICEF, I really took to heart.

Christiana: [00:08:56] And it's not just their quality of life, it's how it affects their education, right. Because you try to study or you try to be in a classroom with no air conditioning, which is most classrooms in the world, at those temperatures, it's very difficult to concentrate. It's very difficult to study. So what it is doing to their health, what it is doing to their education, what it's doing overall to their quality of life, let alone the fact that when they get home, they may not have the food that they ought to be having because agriculture is being affected.

Paul: [00:09:30] Double the number of hot days, double the number. Sorry.

Tom: [00:09:32] Yeah. No, I mean, this is the the thing that it can be quite difficult to get our minds around on climate is the multiplier effect and the way in which one change leads to a myriad of other impacts across society, that actually is the place where you can sometimes really feel the impact. It can be hard to feel, I mean, things like double the number of hot days. We know it's important. There was there was one story that that I came across this week that really made me feel this, and it's that Bangladesh has seen a 39% surge in child marriages over the last few years. And the reason for this is that in coastal communities that are disaster prone, where the flooding has become more frequent, there is obviously a devastating economic impact that affects those families. And as a result of that, pressure is placed on those families to put the girls into marriage at a younger age. So you wouldn't have.

Christiana: [00:10:31] For money?

Tom: [00:10:31] For money. You wouldn't immediately have thought that double the number of hot days, more rain, flooding in coastal communities, and it leads to an impact like nearly 40% surge in in young girls as young as 13 or younger being forced into marriage, but those are the kind of multiplier effects that we need to kind of get used to understanding in terms of the systemic nature of this threat in our world.

Paul: [00:10:56] Yeah.

Tom: [00:10:56] Okay, so I have a question for you both. What happened on the 12th of January, 1882?

Christiana: [00:11:05] You know, these quizzes that you give us in public, Tom, are actually.

Paul: [00:11:10] Well Christiana it's not as difficult as you think because it's in the show notes that we've all should have read, so.

Tom: [00:11:17] Sorry, but finish your point.

Christiana: [00:11:19] You see Tom, Tom does it, you know, just to show off that he's well prepared.

Tom: [00:11:25] That I've read the show notes. All right, well, Paul, do you want to answer the question?

Paul: [00:11:30] Can I make a wild guess? I'd like to say that the first coal fired electric power station opened up in the UK.

Tom: [00:11:33] Yes, you've got it. Exactly. 12th January 1882 the Edison Electric Light station opened in London. This was the world's first ever coal fired power station. It burnt coal to drive a steam engine, which drove a 27 ton generator, and it initially produced enough power for 968 16 candle incandescent lights and provided street lighting across London. So, 1882, and the reason I bring that up now.

Christiana: [00:12:03] And now, drum roll. Da da da da da. 

Tom: [00:12:06] The reason I bring up that period of history, UK, that was the world's first in London and on the 30th of September, so 20 days from our day of recording today, the last coal fired power station in the UK will be closed. This is a momentous moment. That's one year earlier than had previously been anticipated. It's a direct result of surges in renewable energy, offshore wind, onshore wind, solar, as well as, of course, the switch to gas that happened in the 80s and 90s. But this is a big moment and it shows what can be done right. Many other countries are not yet anticipating getting to a full switch away from coal. Germany not till 2038. Canada.

Paul: [00:12:46] 2038? Sorry, could you just say that again?

Tom: [00:12:47] That's what Germany.

Paul: [00:12:47] Germany not till 2038. UK now. Chancellor.

Tom: [00:12:51] Germany 2038.

Paul: [00:12:52] And Germany 2038, interesting.

Tom: [00:12:53] Italy, end of 2025. Now, of course, there are specific geological and geographic reasons why there are differences in those timings. But the point I'm making is that now that we've set the direction, now that this is happening, we're driving down the cost of the solutions. I don't believe for a minute that Germany will still be on coal in 2030. I think it will happen well before then.

Paul: [00:13:11] Nor do I, I hope and believe that that's true.

Christiana: [00:13:13] Well, and just to put the context, this for non-brits, this is so symbolically significant, not only because it was the first coal fired power station in the world, but because Britain, let's remember, is the crib of the Industrial Revolution. And so the fact that Britain is really especially now under, under the new government, really pushing forward on renewables and being so much more responsible about climate policies is is very significant, right. Very, very significant that the country that almost led the world into that nightmare situation, unbeknownst to those who did it, is now leading the world into the next phase.

Tom: [00:14:08] Yeah. I mean and it's.

Paul: [00:14:10] Go ahead.

Tom: [00:14:10] And it's actually been you know, it's frustrating for us who are right at the coalface of climate transitions because we see these devastating impacts we talked about before.

Paul: [00:14:19] Right at the coalface. Right at the windmill of the.

Tom: [00:14:21] Right at the windmill, exactly. But actually in the long arc of history, it's a it's a remarkably rapid transformation, right. In 1990, 80% of the UK's electricity came from coal. Last year it was, last year it was 1% and we're now 32.8% from wind, 11.6% from bioenergy, 14% from nuclear. Solar's in there as well. Still 35% from gas, but it's big progress in the right direction. Christiana.

Paul: [00:14:44] There will be some who recognize that as part of a political battle between the miners and Margaret Thatcher, but.

Tom: [00:14:51] For sure. Does Costa Rica have coal fired stations?

Paul: [00:14:56] When are you opening your first one?

Christiana: [00:14:57] So funny. I was going to say I somehow I have this little sneaky feeling that we're pretty proud of our countries, and we have a lot of information about Costa Rica or about the UK on this podcast. Just saying.

Tom: [00:15:14] Yeah that's true. Maybe it's a little much. Now we're going to go on and talk about the incredible guests we have this week, Doctor Ayana Elizabeth Johnson. But first, Paul, what did you want to show us?

Paul: [00:15:23] Well, first of all, I mean, I want to share with our listeners that Christiana is, like, totally stolen my, my, my line for for this podcast. I'm not a nationalist, you know. I don't have anything particularly specially that connects me to the 68 million people on this rock sticking out of the water, rather than any other rock sticking out of the water. But I was going to say how proud we can be that we decarbonise. And specifically, you know, the nation that, and my my pride, if that's the word, perhaps that's what's a better word. My my contentment, right, comes from a going to a conference in London a friend invited me to, absolutely brilliant conference. Banks, big business, all the rest of it. And it was very much about our new parliament, our new government, who have this massive majority and are driving through, extraordinary decarbonisation of the UK. It's so exciting. We even had my kind of personal hero, who we must get on the podcast called Chris Stark, who is in charge of what's called Mission Control now. And I'm just I'd like to share two points with listeners. One is that, it repeatedly came up that a nation needs a plan, a plan to decarbonize.

Paul: [00:16:29] That sounds a bit obvious, but how many nations have really got, I mean, you've got your NDCs and your negotiating position, but, you know, specifically how are you going to do it. Because everything builds off a plan. The other thing I would just like to mention is that I met lots of people from businesses, incredible businesses, some nice person from a bus company, yeah, we financed 2 billion of electric buses. You know, they come from China. They're extremely well made, extremely well made. Or somebody else used to lay fiber optic cable for the internet now has converted the ships and is laying electric cables to connect up the grids across Europe and across the world. There's such a sense of excitement and possibility, and I really I felt that and I would just encourage us all to sort of take, take a lot of, resource of energy fulfilment from that. We're in a competition now, and I think the UK is in an incredibly advanced position. It may not stay that way, but I'm excited about that.

Christiana: [00:17:22] Yay!

Tom: [00:17:23] And, I hope that our team putting the podcast and social media together will put that quote onto an Instagram slide and attribute it to some nice person from a bus company. I think it's probably the first time we've ever had that kind of quote.

Paul: [00:17:34] Well, from a financing company. Can I leave one final thought?

Christiana: [00:17:39] What, no Churchill, no Churchill quote?

Paul: [00:17:41] Never before in the field of climate change. Just the last thing you know, tonight, incredibly significant debate between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. And I just wanted to leave us from my perspective anyway, with the enormity of what is happening in the US election and so much, so much about the different vectors of climate change depend on that. And, I've often on these podcasts sort of quoted the FT. I'd just like to quote, The Rest Is Politics US, this wonderful presenter, Katty Kay. She gave a very impassioned speech yesterday about how, gun deaths in the US are killing more children, people from from under the age of 24 than than road accidents. And I'm sorry, with apologies to both Donald Trump and and, Tim Walz, I'd like to say that I think the US is a weird country, and I'm wishing that country well through this very complicated process, because so much is depending upon the decarbonization of the world's largest economy.

Tom: [00:18:40] Yeah, absolutely. Right now we're going to shift to our interview, unless either of you have anything else to add at this point?

Christiana: [00:18:47] Yeah. Let's move to the interview, which actually, dear friends, I'm going to be doing later on today. So sorry, but you are, I think you're either uninvited or you're unavailable. I think you're both unavailable. 

Tom: [00:19:02] Or both.

Christiana: [00:19:04] Or both. So I will be talking to Doctor Ayana Elizabeth Johnson, who is a brilliant marine biologist, policy expert, writer, she was the creator of the podcast How to Save a Planet, which is no longer running, but was focused on climate solutions, and in her writing chapter of life, she was first the co-editor of a best selling climate anthology entitled All We Can Save, and she's now coming up with yet another book, which is entitled What If We Get It Right? Visions of Climate Futures. So very exciting to talk to her. Among other things, not only because she has such a positive view of what can happen if we get our homework done, but also because she loves the ocean and knows so much more about the ocean than I do. So I'm very much looking forward to my chat with her.

Tom: [00:20:04] And Paul and I are extremely sorry that we're unable to join you. I know Ayana a little bit, met her several times. She's a hugely inspiring and brilliant person. I'm sure the interview will be great. Now, just before we go, I just wanted to say, that we have also put together some listening journeys for you, the listener. And whether you're new to the podcast or a long time listener seeking out gems from our back catalogue, we're launching this series of journeys on our website so you can follow a carefully curated listening path for a theme you're interested in. For example, you could go there and look for shows on youth and climate or how to talk about climate. Or if you're new to the climate space, we have a dedicated listener journey that we hope might give you a place to start. So that's just something I wanted to promote before we go. Sorry not to join you today, Christiana. I'm sure the interview will be great and we'll see listeners next week. Here's Doctor Ayana Elizabeth Johnson and her interview with Christiana.

Christiana: [00:20:59] So Ayana, thank you so, so much for joining us here on Outrage + Optimism. And I feel I feel I'm in your debt on two accounts. Are you ready for this?

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:21:12] My pleasure. Okay.

Christiana: [00:21:13] The first, I am in your debt because we were scheduled to have this recorded conversation last week, and in the very last minute, I asked for your flexibility to record on a different date because I was nailed to my seat in a stadium watching blind football, and I just couldn't tear myself away. So I'm in your debt for your flexibility.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:21:36] I got that message, I was like, there is nothing more important than watching that game. I'll talk to you later, it's fine.

Christiana: [00:21:43] And the second thing that I'm in your debt for is that while we are both joined in our absolute love for the ocean, you're so much more knowledgeable about the ocean than I am. So I am looking forward to this conversation to to learn so much more about, truly one of the, one of nature's forces that I am absolutely in love with. But I'm afraid from an from a romantic point of view and not from a very knowledgeable point of view. So so I'm really looking forward to this.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:22:20] I mean, climate solutions need more romance is basically my official platform, so.

Christiana: [00:22:24] Oh yes, there you go. I like that one.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:22:26] I'm here for it.

Christiana: [00:22:27] I like that one. So so let's stay with the romance. Tell us before we get into you as a marine biologist, tell us, where does your love for the ocean come from?

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:22:38] I thought you were going to do one of those things they do on, like, those Hollywood shows, they're like, tell us about your love life. And I was going to be like.

Christiana: [00:22:46] This is your love life, isn't it?

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:22:49] I mean, I am in love and it is wonderful, but I didn't know that's where we were going to start, and actually with someone who is an ocean person who is like a sea kayak guide and owns a tour company here in Maine. So that's kind of fun to to be able to share this love of the ocean together. But yeah, my my love of the ocean started before this romance, when I was a little kid. I mean, I think so many of us, anyone who has a positive experience, adventure in nature as a child, falls in love with it. I mean, how could you not, right. Even if all you see is the waves and the sand, it's just so charming. And then once you learn more right about the fish and the octopuses and the corals and all of this stuff.

Christiana: [00:23:39] And you discover that huge playground underneath the water level, what!

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:23:44] Right. It's blue on the surface, but there's like this whole rainbow of activity happening in there, all these dramas playing out underwater, it's totally captivating. And so I had, the good fortune of being able to see a coral reef for the first time when I was five years old in Key West, Florida, and I was just head over heels and decided I wanted to become a marine biologist.

Christiana: [00:24:11] There you go, that a good.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:24:12] That was the meet cute, on a glass bottom boat.

Christiana: [00:24:17] Okay, it's, I mean, it's so beautiful because we all start our love affair with nature somewhere. And usually in a very early.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:24:25] Where was yours begun?

Christiana: [00:24:27] My love of the oceans?

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:24:29] Of nature in general.

Christiana: [00:24:30] Well, my love of nature started when I was way, way, way, way back when I was about 12 or 13. But I first fell in love with a little golden toad that has gone extinct. My love of the ocean came on top of that, when I discovered that I just need a lot of water in front of me every single day to keep me sane.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:24:55] It really does have this, these mental health benefits, the ocean in particular, that sort of motion and rhythm. And even when it's not serene.

Christiana: [00:25:06] Absolutely. And speaking of health, here we go, diving into the relationship between.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:25:13] I'm ready for the pivot. 

Christiana: [00:25:13] Yeah, because here we go diving into the relationship between oceans and climate change. And so would love to hear you, Ayana, and I should let you know that many of our listeners are climate interested, climate active, but not necessarily geeks, okay.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:25:33] Okay.

Christiana: [00:25:34] So I would appreciate if you would explain to all of us the relationship between what the oceans have done for us for years, the service that they have rendered to the planet with respect to absorbing heat that otherwise would have still been in the atmosphere. So I would love you, let's start there, the, whatever is left of the health of the planet, why do we owe it in great measure to the oceans?

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:26:08] In great measure indeed. To sort of give like full geek, but no jargon.

Christiana: [00:26:17] I like that combination.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:26:17] The thing about the ocean is, one of the many reasons to love it is that it has absolutely protected us from what would otherwise be completely catastrophic impacts of climate change. So all of the excess carbon that we have in the atmosphere, right, because of burning fossil fuels, because of destroying ecosystems, there would be so much more of that if it weren't for the ocean, because the ocean is actually absorbed about a third of that of those carbon emissions, and so and the ocean has also absorbed about 90% of the heat that's been trapped by all those greenhouse gases. So without the ocean, the Earth would be something like 37°C hotter. Like 90 plus degrees Fahrenheit hotter, like unlivable for humans, and so I think people don't generally think of the ocean as a part of the climate system, but because of its heat and carbon dioxide absorption, it absolutely is. But of course, there are ramifications of that, right.

Christiana: [00:27:29] At a huge price.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:27:30] At a huge price. The ocean has become about 30% more acidic, like, we have changed the very chemistry, the pH of seawater globally. Of course, the ocean is also warming up because it's absorbed all this heat by about a degree Celsius or so few degrees Fahrenheit, and all the creatures that live in the ocean are adapted to a pretty narrow range of temperatures, just like we are, right. The difference between us running a fever of 100 degrees and 103 degrees is massive in terms of our health. So you can imagine what that would feel like if you were a coral and you can't swim to cooler water. But also speaking of corals, with the ocean water acidifying, it gets harder for them to grow their skeletons. So we're really just disrupting ocean ecosystems massively. And on top of that, a lot of the movement of heat around the planet happens through ocean currents and as seawater as as ice is melting, that's changing the salinity difference between the water at the top and the water at the bottom. And it's that differential that actually drives currents. The difference in salinity and the difference in temperature between surface and deeper waters lead to this turnover, these conveyor belts of currents and those are getting disrupted, slowing down, etc.. So and they're moving heat around the planet and evening things out in different ways. So, lots of huge changes that are very hard to unwind on a decade time scale. We're talking like millennia at which these changes, could be reversed. So we just are at the point where we have to stop further changes and act really urgently to, eliminate greenhouse gas emissions.

Christiana: [00:29:28] Well, we're we're we're going to get to your book in a minute because it's all about solutions and possibilities and, and really a so much of a better view and vision for our planet. But I just wanted to go in one level deeper, Ayana, because it it is it is difficult to conceive because we're trained to think linearly, it's so difficult to conceive how greenhouse gases in the atmosphere that are accumulating, how they have a cascading effect of one ecosystem onto the next, onto the next, onto the next, and how it's just has such a, yeah, such an amplification effect, across so many ecosystems and across so many in fact, geographies talk about oceans touching every single continent of this, of this planet. And so it's it's difficult to put all of this together and say, if this happens, then that and then that and then that. How do you explain that cascading amplification effect?

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:30:38] I mean everything has every action has a reaction right. There's these causes and effects. And I think thank goodness for all the scientific research that's warning us about these potential ripple effects. And the example that comes to mind ecologically is that thinking about kelp forests, for example, in in California right. Kelp are having a hard time growing as the seawater is changing, but also because, there are so many sea urchins and the sea urchins are eating up the kelp and there are so many sea urchins because there aren't as many otters that would otherwise be eating the sea urchins right. So all of these connections, the.

Christiana: [00:31:25] And why do we have less otters?

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:31:27] Well, I think there's a few reasons, but, like, I'm sure we killed a bunch of them at some point, and I don't know, I'm actually not sure what kinds of protections they're under now in terms of policy, but, all of these, you know, trophic cascades, as they're called, these different levels of the food web, interact. So what you do to one has all of these effects that you wouldn't normally, expect to see, but one thing leads to another, leads to another. And then all of a sudden you're like, where are the kelp forests?

Christiana: [00:32:01] Yeah. Where does it start and where does it end. It's very difficult to figure out where does it start, and certainly not where does it end.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:32:10] It sort of doesn't.

Christiana: [00:32:11] It's, yeah, it's so cyclical right. And it just goes further and further and further.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:32:16] And I think what we're what we're more worried about now is less that it's cyclical and more that it's like a one way train in the wrong direction right. That it will be very hard to come back around on that cycle. For example when you have very few corals left or kelp plants left, if they're too far apart they can't reproduce their, the larvae don't know, they can't smell home. They can't, the sperm and eggs don't find each other and it's too diluted right. So there are all these things that happen once you get to very low population numbers that make it harder for things to recover this allee effect as it's called.

Christiana: [00:33:00] So actually, I misspoke, I didn't mean this cycle, I meant spiral. Because it does come around and around, but it goes into higher and higher, either down the drain or up in terms of consequences.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:33:15] Yeah, totally.

Christiana: [00:33:15] So yeah, that spiral effect is so difficult to, to, to understand and to put our arms around. But you know what we're very excited about Ayana, because as you know, on this podcast called Outrage + Optimism, we do both. We are outraged, for example, about what you've just told us, and we're optimistic. And that's why we're so excited about your book that is coming out just a few days from now.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:33:41] Yeah.

Christiana: [00:33:42] Entitled, your second book, by the way.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:33:45] Actually my third. I snuck a secret one in there. I did the Best American Science and Nature writing of 2022. I edited that anthology. So in a way, this is actually my third anthology, which is my preferred format for dealing with big climate questions, because what one person has all the answers.

Christiana: [00:34:05] Well, I stand corrected, exactly, no. And it's so beautiful because for this one entitled What If We Get It Right? Visions of Climate Futures. You've brought together what you call a mosaic, right. 20 interviews, five poems, three co-authored chapters, two artists new works, plus a note from your dad and a quote from your mom. I mean, come on, everybody piling in here, and so very exciting that you that you're really bending to this collective wisdom and collective insight that we can have as, as, as a community as opposed to just individuals. But what what would you hope that readers most take out of reading your book and your podcast, by the way. How could I not mention that you're also launching just a few days after a new podcast with the same title. What if we get it right? So very exciting both.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:35:06] Thank you. I think the thing that I want people to take away from this is that while we have problems, there are also all of these possibilities. In fact, each section of the book opens with this spread of ten problems and ten possibilities. This list of minuses and pluses, and I think it's so important to always look at those side by side, to not only be thinking about the problems and and not thinking about where we go from here, what getting it right, what turning things around, what mitigating the damage would look like. And so that's, that's the one thing is for people to understand that we basically have the solutions we need. It's just a matter of how quickly we're going to implement them right. How justly we're going to implement them, how broadly we're going to implement them right. Because we know how to switch our electricity to renewables. We know how to improve public transit and electrify transportation. We know how to insulate buildings to green buildings. We know how to grow our food in ways that are better for the planet. We certainly know how to protect and restore ecosystems. It's just a matter of like, okay, like who's doing what, and how quickly are we going to get it done, like, what's our plan. And so my hope is that people will see this, this wealth of possibilities in the book and start to think about where they could pitch in to be a part of making all these solutions happen in the real world.

Christiana: [00:36:39] It is, it's so helpful, Ayana, to have someone to really address both the individual possibilities that we have to contribute and how that adds up to systemic transformation. Because so often we think that these two things are so far apart from each other that they have nothing to do with each other. And and your vision is quite, quite eloquent and quite compelling in saying, actually, they are intricately related.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:37:10] Yeah. I mean I think that's the question for each of us right, is how can our individual actions contribute to systems level changes. I mean, of course I do all of those, general things in my personal life, you know, thinking about, how do I vote and spread the word and protest and lower my carbon footprint and reduce my own consumption, but if that's all I did, that would sort of be not enough, right, like, there are other things I can contribute and actually to sort of bring this back around to oceans and solutions, we know that the ocean is the source of about one third of the climate solutions we need, from renewable energy offshore, to decarbonizing shipping, to protecting and restoring coastal ecosystems like wetlands and mangroves that are absorbing more carbon than a tropical forest, to regenerative farming in the ocean of seaweeds and shellfish that are incredibly low carbon footprint way to feed people, nutritious food. And so knowing all of that, that's really the foundation for why I co-founded Urban Ocean Lab, which is this policy think tank for the future of coastal cities, because about 1 in 5 Americans live in a coastal city. Obviously, coastal cities are a level of government where policy change can happen, but coastal cities are simply not prepared for what's coming right for the changes that are already here. Everything from sea level rise and storms to heat waves and coastal cities are also hubs of innovation. And if they can get it right, a lot of those changes can spread from city to city. Those adaptations trickle up to what's happening at state and federal levels in terms of policy and programs. And so that's how I've sort of found my own way to being useful in this work, right, using my background as a marine biologist. And the years I spent working in policy, my love of design and communications to figure out how we can, help coastal cities get it right and create visions of climate futures that will work in those places.

Christiana: [00:39:39] How to get coastal cities to get it right, and you gave the data point for the US. But if we take it to the world's population, more than 40% of the world's population lives within, I don't know, 100km of the coast. And those are the first 100, or at least the first 20 to 50km off the coast that are most vulnerable to sea level rise. So, so eventually or actually at the same time, you have these coastal populations being among the most vulnerable to, to unaddressed climate change, but also sitting on so many of the solutions both at the same time.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:40:22] And this question of adaptation, how do we adapt to these things when the places that people are living may be more or less uninhabitable within the next few decades right. You can't hold back the entire ocean. And so we're going to need to have a plan to help people move to safer places, whether that's because it's too hot for normal human life, as we're starting to see in more places, or it's just inundated. And so one of the areas that Urban Ocean Lab is going to be focusing on with a bunch of different, collaborating organizations in the coming year or two, is this question of climate driven relocation and what it would look like to have a policy framework in place, that manages that process deliberately. Because ignoring that this is coming is not going to make it go away. It's just going to make it worse. It's going to make it more chaotic. It's going to make it much harder on the people who have the fewest resources to adapt. So I think it's that's one of the big things that we need to start facing is that we are, you know, if we look at all the scientific projections, social and natural science, what we see is that we are looking at the next, the largest wave of human migration that the world has ever seen. We just need to relocate in order to be safe in this changed climate. But that's also an opportunity to rethink how we want to live together, how we want to structure societies. And one of the things that I found when researching this book, actually, on that physical construction piece, is that about 75% of the infrastructure that will exist in 2050 has yet to built.

Christiana: [00:42:14] Has still to be built, yeah.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:42:17] Right, like we are building the future every day. Like, why don't we just do it differently and better and more sustainably and more beautifully like, it could be aesthetically pleasing, this future that we're building.

Christiana: [00:42:30] Aesthetically pleasing, much healthier, much fairer, and just more just conditions for everyone. Those those are the things that are so inspiring that really belong there in the bucket, in the bucket of possibility right. And Ayana, you have such a beautiful turn of phrase you talk about, we need the gumption that emerges from an effervescent sense of possibility. Can you unpack that for me, what does effervescent sense of possibility mean?

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:43:03] Clearly, I was really getting carried away as I was writing the introduction.

Christiana: [00:43:06] I love it, I love it.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:43:07] So I just I think the gumption part is like the the chutzpah, right, the like, get up and go, the tenacity, to just make things happen. And that to me, like, where does that energy, that drive come from. And to me, it is this effervescent sense of possibility, this, like bubbling, sparkling, bubbling up sense that there are so many different possible futures and we each get to be a part of making sure we have the best one that we possibly can. Even though the world has already changed, even though a lot of the greenhouse gases are out of the bag right, like, we still have innumerable possible futures and all this potential to shape everything. And so I want people to get this sense of that and, and have that feel concrete enough.

Christiana: [00:44:08] The excitement of creation.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:44:09] That it propels us, yeah.

Christiana: [00:44:11] Yeah. Can we bottle that in, like, put it into IVs everywhere.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:44:18] I'm sure someone, somewhere could hatch some sort of creepy scheme to do that.

Christiana: [00:44:23] Well, maybe that's, you know, your book, your podcast, the IV. You know that that could be the next, the next factor.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:44:30] The trifecta, yeah.

Christiana: [00:44:31] There you go, the trifecta. Ayana how, how delightful, sadly, we won't have time for more, more chatting, but, I do want here in public to say please come visit me in Costa Rica.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:44:47] Oh, my gosh that would be a dream. I would love nothing more.

Christiana: [00:44:51] That would be fantastic. Can you imagine the two of us standing there right in front of the ocean. Oh my gosh, I'm already very excited.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:44:57] Yeah, let's just gaze upon the waves together. I'm in.

Christiana: [00:45:01] Indeed. But before you come to Costa Rica for a nice long walk on the beach with me, we do have a final question that we ask everyone, and it is in honour of the title of our podcast, and that is given where you are from, the research of your book and the vision that you've been able to lay out for all of us, what are you still outraged about, and what are you most optimistic about?

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:45:33] I am most outraged at the fact that it is a very small handful of people who have the most influence on the future of life on Earth, right. Those fossil fuel executives, those politicians who are denying climate science, the bank executives that are funding the expansions of fossil fuels, the big AG executives who are making our food system go in the wrong direction, like it's actually a shockingly small number of people who are setting us on this wrong path. And it's really driven by greed. And that makes me furious because we have better options and honestly, they have enough money. So let's just all work on solutions together, whatever ingenuity they were Machiavellian using, they could just put towards something better.

Christiana: [00:46:29] And I will note that furious goes beyond outrage.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:46:32] Okay, well, I am then.

Christiana: [00:46:34] You're furious.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:46:40] And I think on the optimism side, I mean, as I think we've discussed, I have sort of a tenuous relationship with that term. I don't necessarily assume that things are going to be okay in the end right, I don't know. There are, you know, many different possible futures. And I think the thing that's important for me to remember is that there is this spectrum, right. It's not 0 or 100. It's not like apocalypse or paradise. It's, how close can we get to paradise. And so the thing that keeps me going, is just trying to get as close to paradise as we can, even knowing that it won't be a perfect world. It will be a much better world than it would otherwise be if we all roll up our sleeves and do our part.

Christiana: [00:47:34] Yeah, and that we will have to pay a price to get there for sure.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:47:38] A lot has got to change. The status quo is setting us in the wrong direction for sure.

Christiana: [00:47:45] I'm probably going to misquote this person, but I heard one beautiful definition of optimism as being hope with your sleeves rolled up.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:47:56] There we go.

Christiana: [00:47:57] We have to work at it right, we're gonna work at it.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:48:00] The term I use in the book is catalytic hope.

Christiana: [00:48:05] I like that.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:48:06] That sort of effervescent gumption, tenacious kind of energy.

Christiana: [00:48:11] Very exciting. Ayana, thank you so much. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for a lovely conversation, which would have been even more lovely if we were both sitting there, you know, on the wet sand.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:48:22] Thank you. I'll see you on the beach soon.

Christiana: [00:48:24] But we'll see you on the beach soon. Thank you, bye. 

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:48:30] Bye.

Christiana: [00:48:35] So that was Dr Ayana Elizabeth Johnson. What, what a what a delight to have this conversation with someone who both understands the depth of the scientific consequences of what we are perpetrating against ourselves and against the rest of nature, but who also maintains her spirit and her enthusiasm above the doom and gloom and says, yes, we are perpetrating this against ourselves and nature, and at the same time we have the capacity and the possibility of creating a much better future for ourselves. So, so in line with the spirit of the message that we continue to share from from the podcast of almost sitting in two chairs at the same time, in the chair of science and the reality of what is going on and at the same time firmly on the chair of possibility and of collective wisdom to get us to a very different place than where we are right now. And of course, in the show notes, we will make sure to put a link to the book that is coming out to the podcast that will soon be coming out, and to Ayana's other work as well, so that you have a full overview of her brilliant work. That's it for this week. That's the wrap up. Thank you so much for joining us and listening to this conversation. And we will see you next week.