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250: Why Collective Trauma Is Keeping Us Stuck On Climate

With Thomas Hübl

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About this episode

This week, we go deep into trauma with Thomas Hübl, who developed the Collective Trauma Integration Process for working with individual, ancestral, and collective trauma. With the help of Thomas, hear our hosts unpack why, and how, we have to keep working on the solutions even as we are still experiencing the trauma of the climate crisis.

Thomas Hübl, is a renowned teacher, author, and international facilitator who works within the complexity of systems and cultural change by integrating the core insights of the great wisdom traditions and mysticism with the discoveries of science.


Thomas Hübl, Teacher, Author, and International Facilitator
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Full Transcript

Christiana: [00:00:12] Hello and welcome to this special episode of Outrage + Optimism. This week we bring you a fascinating conversation that Tom, Paul and I had with Thomas Hübl a few months ago. He is the author of the book 'Healing Collective Trauma, a process for integrating our intergenerational and cultural wounds'. And the book 'attuned, Practicing Interdependence to Heal Our Trauma–and Our World'. Thomas is a teacher, author, and international facilitator, and since 2004 he has taught and facilitated programs on trauma healing with more than 100,000 people worldwide, including courses online. We invited Thomas onto the podcast to help us unpack the way that trauma is spoken about and experienced by those working and thinking about the climate crisis. But let me put this conversation into a broader context. This conversation has no intent to deny that we are witnessing so many horrendous killings in the Middle East, in the Ukraine, in Myanmar and elsewhere, and that these are deeply traumatic for those who live them directly and for many others. This conversation is also not intended to deny that there are not only political and war situations that are traumatic, but situations of unequal power and abuse of authority or even superior physical strength that can lead to traumatic experiences. So we do not mean to deny any of this, and I personally have been already very open about the fact that I have been through my share of experiences that I perceived and experienced as traumatic when they happened, but that I am grateful to have been able to work them through to the point where I remember them for sure, but they no longer control my life.

Christiana: [00:02:56] But fast forward today, here where we are, I question what happens when the word trauma is used to refer to such a broad array of human experiences that it tragically ends up losing its meaning. Or does each individual decide on their own whether their experience is one that would fall under their own definition of trauma. Perhaps so, because the perception of what happens or our reaction to what happens is so deeply personal. Now, I remind you that we had this conversation several months ago, and I start the interview by expressing a frustration at what I sometimes feel is an overuse of the word trauma, not in order to undermine in any way or underestimate any of the painful experiences that we have talked about, but rather as an invitation for Thomas to help us understand why this is such a prevalent discourse at this current point in time. As you'll hear, I really go after the social currency that trauma seems to have accrued to hopefully bring the broad concept of trauma right to eye level so that we can take a good look at it and really have a productive conversation for everyone who's listening.

Christiana: [00:04:39] I also ask Thomas if he recognizes that which I call pre-traumatic syndrome in relation to climate change, and ask how we might work through this in order to face the challenges that lie ahead and hold a vision of a future that is worth striving for. I am sure you will find his answers as thought provoking and insightful as we did, and we would love to hear your feedback on this episode. It is not the easiest episode to listen to, but we hope it will be beneficial. We'll all be back with you next week. Thanks for listening. Load More
Christiana: [00:05:30] Hey, are we are we ready? Set to go, okay. Thomas, thank you so much for joining us here on Outrage + Optimism. And I ask you this right off the bat, because you are undoubtedly one of the world's experts in trauma and the treatment and the healing after trauma. It is my perception that as of late, we have broadened the definition or infinitely applied, the circumstances under which we say, I have a trauma, I am traumatized. Why is this happening now?

Thomas Hübl: [00:06:14] That's a big topic, so we should add some hours to our conversation, but I'll try to keep it brief. So first of all, in some ways I agree with you that there is like an overuse of the word trauma that has nothing to do with trauma itself. And let's let's have a definition of trauma. Trauma is the or the trauma response is what happens in a person when they go through a strongly adverse or violent or whatever life threatening situation, which, by the way, for children is attachment trauma, it can needs to be adjusted a bit this definition. But when the system cannot process the experience and needs to compartmentalize or shut down to survive better. Okay, so just to to say what it is and it's not the experience we go through, it's what happens within us when we go through this experience. 

Christiana: [00:07:13] Exactly.

Thomas Hübl: [00:07:13] And, and I think what you're saying is very true. So when we discern between capital T trauma, like, like really massive traumatization or small T trauma that are, that are more subclinical but still create suffering and trauma symptoms. The second, the second part I need for my answer is the framing of trauma. Trauma is often being framed as a stigma or as something that is bad in me and is kind of a limitation, when in fact the trauma response is a very intelligent function that protects us in adverse situations.

Thomas Hübl: [00:07:51] So it's intelligent. The trauma response is an intelligence, not a limitation or a dysfunction. And thirdly, I think what we see in this, in this, situation right now is that we we found like a kind of a modern name for something that I think other cultures have just called differently. But and we found scientific explanations and we opened a box that is full of scarcity. And I talk a lot about systemic trauma. So like colonialism, racism, Native American genocide, the Holocaust or, or any kind of gender trauma on a pandemic level. So our societies carry a lot of systemic trauma that has been passed on throughout generations. That's that's another thing. It's not just biographical. It's also what was there before. And so in the moment when we open up trauma and we say, I see you, it's like a vacuum that sucks in a lot of air. And because then and then what we hear often, yeah, but my trauma is much worse than your trauma. And my trauma is much worse. And there is this whole these hierarchies of trauma.

Christiana: [00:09:15] Competition, competition.

Thomas Hübl: [00:09:16] Competition actually. Exactly. And that competition, I believe, is a result of, of a lot of pain that that resided in the collective unconscious for a long time. And when you open it up, it suddenly all the oxygen in the room gets sucked into it. And so there is a phase, as you said, that where that seems extreme. And sometimes when this movement comes, they have their peak, and then they balance themselves again on a, on a kind of more regulated level. But the dysregulation is part of the trauma. So when you address it, it will also feel dysregulated at the beginning until it can come down and meet the level of attention that it really needs and will be treated and dealt with on that level. So we see a bit of an exaggeration, but the hyper activation of trauma is also exaggeration. So it is the symptom of the very thing that we opened up. And we need to be mindful of that hyper activated process that we see right now.

Christiana: [00:10:28] And why, why now Thomas? What, if you see it in history right. Why have we hyper activated this now? What is unique in the circumstances that we're living right now?

Thomas Hübl: [00:10:43] Yeah, I think there are two things. The work that you are all very passionate about. I think there is more and more stress in the biosphere, and trauma sits in the biosphere. Trauma sits in our bodies, trauma sits, and I believe our bodies are nature. So it sits in nature and there is more and more stress in the in all kinds of buffer systems and systems in the natural environment. That's one. The second one is our population density on the planet reaches a certain limit where the fuel, like the fuel of competition, like the fuel of evolution, is not competition, but collaboration. It's switching. We are switching fuels. We need to collaborate. This is the time of collaboration. But collaboration needs us to relate to each other and if we have massive gaps in our relationships, so that's not conducive. So this will bring it up to. And the third part I mean there are more parts. But the third important part is technology because the, the speed of life is speeding up. While we are having that conversation, the world's getting faster, the data speed is all the time growing. And so our nervous systems, and that's where trauma resides, are being exposed to higher and higher data flows all the time without genetic update in our lifetime.

Thomas Hübl: [00:12:08] So every new generation has another update to deal with that. But so we need to actually upgrade the speed of data. And when data hits a block as trauma creates, trauma is kind of a communication disorganization in the system. So when the speed of data hits the disorganized data field, it will just get exaggerated and it will come up. So we are and then there are more I think also the way we use social media, the way we or media, like many, many things that potentially activates the collective body in a way that brings out the trauma activation or the numbness, the indifference. The other side of trauma is the hypo-activation that more and more people check out become indifferent, depressed, and, so we see those symptoms come up stronger. And the question is, do we have enough systemic awareness and well-regulated, mature relationships that we can kind of embrace that and support it to go to the next level of development.

Christiana: [00:13:20] So I'm really interested in how this, applies to specifically to the sector that Paul, Tom and I are in Thomas, as you know, which is climate change. My my sense and I am I'm no trauma expert, but I have coined a term that I would be interested in getting your feedback on, which is pre-traumatic syndrome. Why, because my sense is we all know what post-traumatic syndrome is, but my sense is that a substantial part, if not all, of the eco anxiety, the grief, the pain that young people and not so young people are experiencing about the destruction that we are causing on this planet, the destruction to ecosystems, the destruction to livelihoods, human livelihoods. Et cetera. Et cetera. Part of that awareness is in the here and now, because there's no doubt that we have huge consequences that we're experiencing right now. Part of it is in the future, because we are understanding better and better what science is warning us about the consequences that we will live if we don't do our task now. So that part of the grief and the loss already of what we have in our head could be the future is what I call pre-traumatic syndrome. And my sense is, but I would very much want you to to discuss that, is that a lot of the pain and anguish that is in the climate community system is the result of both personal pain, ancestral pain, as well as the pain that is coming from our view of what could happen in the future without that having happened yet. So that's why I call it pre-traumatic syndrome. My question to you is, does that make sense to you? How are those two different the post traumatic and the pre traumatic? And what is the relationship between the two?

Thomas Hübl: [00:15:35] That's a beautiful frame, that's a beautiful question I love that question. So my first response is when when we understand trauma as Sigmund Freud already said in Vienna that unresolved past that is frozen in time. So it means experience that cannot integrate itself as learning. So that unresolved past, is kind of subject to the repetition compulsion. So it will repeat itself out of multiple reasons. And we see that we see cyclic movements. We see that in in intimate relationships between parents and children, in organizations, in societies, global conflicts and so on. And so when we when I hear you, what immediately comes up in me is, yes, like we are, there is the anticipation. And if we and even if we act now swiftly, still there will be a decent amount of trauma coming through all the climate impact, climate refugees, like all what we already know from science. And but the point is that the archaeological layers, if you see trauma of different trauma layers, like in archaeology, when when the stress of the current time plus the anticipation of the future time hits that ice, we cannot process that really, because it hits ice. We cannot ground that information and translate that as a feedback mechanism into appropriate action. So what happens is actually it activates a lot of the past that wants to come to the surface. And, and I think we are still thinking human beings to individual is like, oh, that person has a climate anxiety. But I think many, many people around the world begin to feel that the, the pressure of the future is bringing up a lot of undigested material that we we don't have the tools collectively to to digest. And then we. 

Christiana: [00:17:45] To transform. 

Thomas Hübl: [00:17:45] To transform exactly. Transform into growth.

Christiana: [00:17:49] Learning.

Thomas Hübl: [00:17:50] Development, learning.

Christiana: [00:17:50] Into learning, into maturity, into resilience.

Thomas Hübl: [00:17:54] Absolutely. And that's what we need to work on. Because the frustration also in the climate change conversation and the delay of the response is a delay of the intelligence of the feedback mechanisms that are limited or, or kind of, broken. And that's why we don't respond fast enough, because what trauma doesn't want is change, because the nature of trauma is frozen. So so we need to develop skills and collective skills. That's why I often say with what we know about trauma, we cannot just continue without a mainstream, government funded architecture that helps us to digest the past for us to move forward in a more free, creative, innovative and and and swifter way. And that's exactly what what your question points us to. So yes, absolutely. That's a very important question about how we respond.

Christiana: [00:18:49] And Thomas, why why do I feel such a strong temptation to stay in my trauma, to lick my wounds, to use it as a I don't know, I want to say an excuse, but to use it as a reason perhaps to use it as a reason to not do x, y, z, to not assume responsibility for issues that are coming up in my life or in my world. Why is there such a temptation to just fall into the victim box, and and not use the invitation of an experienced trauma to actually step out of the victim box into agency, why is that temptation so strong?

Thomas Hübl: [00:19:36] Yeah, very good. So I compare this often with, let's say you're living in a house and a room, or a part of your house is getting hurt or unliveable. So trauma is a part in us where we cannot we cannot be. And that's why we developed compensation mechanisms. So let's say you build a scaffolding around your house and in part of your house you can live in part of your house you live on the scaffolding and that becomes a habit, that becomes our life. So when people say their trauma, they're not really talking about their trauma. What they are talking about are the symptoms that their trauma creates. That's very important. If once we are able to touch the trauma which resides outside of the radios of our awareness, we we are already in touch with it. But we are not in touch with the trauma. We are in touch with the symptoms that the trauma creates. That's why we build these defense mechanisms. And one defense mechanism is, is the disowning, the splitting off of of a lot of pain. So we need to create a cultural environment that we can re own that pain.

Thomas Hübl: [00:20:46] Because as you say, we need a kind of a teaching and learning, but also safe environments to re-own the trauma and re-owning the trauma sets us more free because then we can really work it. Not like disowning the trauma puts us more into all kinds of positions or defence positions. And the same is also true for the transgressions, by the way, because trauma often has been created through transgression. Racism is a continuous transgression, or colonialism was a transgression or is a transgression. And the whatever anti-Semitism or gender violence. So as long as we don't own both sides, we need to own both sides to come to a post-traumatic learning through their owning and to to to heal the ethical transgressions that have happened. Some trauma happened through natural disaster or other things, but a lot of trauma that we see in humanity has been created through ethical violations, and we have to heal them to harvest the ethical growth that is frozen in the ice to go forward. We need those.

Christiana: [00:21:58] Sorry, this will be my, sorry, I'm just peppering you with questions because it's so tempting. Sorry, Thomas. But those ethical violations are a in the past, personal in the past, ancestral and perceived in the future as well. Because if there is anything that climate is, it is an ethical violation on to future generations. And so I guess that's where the knot gets very, very difficult to untie or to soften because it's it's almost like picking the wound all over again, even if it's a wound in the making.

Thomas Hübl: [00:22:37] Yeah. And even if we know that intellectually we won't be able to live it differently until or unless we create spaces where like a multi-dimensional, multi multidisciplinary impact force, the people that know how to do the healing work should do the healing work. The people that know how to do the climate science should do that. The people who need impact and technology should do that. It's not either or. It's we all need to do it. And if we do it together, we we will, the people who know how to liquefy life from this frozenness will do that and create the ethical upgrades that we need.

Paul: [00:23:15] That's my question, Thomas, because, you know, you've said before, we're becoming the answer to climate change. That's a very exciting vision. You, you just a few minutes ago, you gestured about, almost like a government program to support the the, dealing with trauma or the unfreezing. Can you talk a little bit specifically if you were the prime minister or president of a nation or something, how you would introduce a trauma resolution initiative?

Thomas Hübl: [00:23:44] Yeah. If I were prime Minister, I would, redirect a certain funding. I would say, listen, health care system didn't exist, and now it exists because we we developed it over the course of centuries or whatever millennia. And and we need another structure that will be funded by the state. Why, because we as citizens, mature citizens, understand that if we don't deal with the past, that we don't feel, we don't deal with it, we will repeat it. And if we want to not repeat it, we need to deal with it. So we need a certain architecture where we have professionally facilitated spaces where we can deal with some of the massive wounds fragmentations or also international fragmentations, so that the collaboration will be a natural consequence of it. And I think.

Paul: [00:24:39] So was the Truth and Reconciliation in South Africa, an example of that?

Thomas Hübl: [00:24:42] That was the first step. That was a great step, by the way, and also also the Truth and Reconciliation in Rwanda was a great first step. But the next step is to heal the residue that still sits in many people of the trauma that hasn't been addressed by it enough, deeply enough so that innovative energy and creative energy, because all the energy that is stuck in the trauma can become creativity. And and so it's there's innovation that comes from the future in a way. But there is innovation that we've never had that is stuck in the past. And if we if we use both, we are amazingly innovative. We are amazingly powerful. So we need to invest on the large level to heal. We don't need to heal everything, but we need to open up some of the stagnations so that we can globally collaborate. We will be faster together. We will, we will not get stuck on certain kind of proxy conversations that are not really the real thing. And we will work together much better to solve climate change in a, in a much more mature way. And, and I think, yeah, go ahead.

Tom: [00:25:49] And are you talking there, so I have a question to that but just a quick pre question. Are you talking about everyone in that regard or certain people?

Thomas Hübl: [00:25:57] I'm talking about, let's say, a critical mass within a society. And we and it depends how how many people disagree in the society and the state. But like that, a certain amount of people go through a process together. So like for everybody else in that culture, because once you liquefy it enough, it will start to move by itself. But as long as it's very stagnant, it just creates fragmentations and conflicts.

Tom: [00:26:25] So I just have one question I just want because you're you're a fascinating and slightly different type of guest for our podcast. So I want to just give you a chance to, to answer a question that maybe in the minds of some of our listeners, right, because they, you identified, you know, the sort of sense of overwhelm and people who live in this world are like, oh my God, you know, like we need to transform the energy system. We need to do something about nature. We need to deal with inequality. We need to, you know, the laundry list and the baggage can feel very heavy. And and one of the outcomes of this conversation, and I don't think this is what you're saying, is, before we address the formidable problems of the future, we have to transcend the ethical violations of the entirety of history so that we can actually incorporate that into our moment, where we transcend the trauma and we can move forward. How do we stop this being just another thing to do that gets put in the laundry list of problems?

Thomas Hübl: [00:27:12] Yes. I don't think we need to do it before we need to do it in parallel, because we need all the other work too. But I think we need to work together like an orchestra. Let's say healing is part of, is one of the violins or the piano in the orchestra. We need all of us to play together. But if we don't take care of the, the, the, the vessel, the hardware, where all this this to do list lands, then they compute. Because trauma says I am overwhelmed. People that feel indifferent, that feel distant, that feel not engaged, that feel they are disengaging because it seems like it's getting too much.

Christiana: [00:27:51] Too much. 

Thomas Hübl: [00:27:51] That this, that disengagement is already there. It's not just now through the to do list. It's already there. That's what I'm saying. The individual, ancestral and collective trauma system is already there. We have thousands of years of it. And and so when, when the to do list lands in a system that's open, we can we are regulated, we can prioritize, we can look what's the most important thing to do. We have a mature relationship to all of that. It's not overwhelming me because I can organize that in myself. When the to do list hits an individual or a society or an organization that is not well regulated or disorganized, then it will just just explode the disorganization.

Thomas Hübl: [00:28:34] So it will just get much more disorganized, overwhelmed, and then it creates a resistance. And that resistance blocks the progress. And then we get all frustrated and say, listen, we are not progressing fast enough. And they say, yeah, but it's right. We cannot because we are not skillfully addressing where the society is. And then it looks like we are not doing it, but the past that is stuck cannot do it. And once we get that and say, oh wow, yeah, right. We need holding spaces for this. And then everybody who is already engaged and doing amazing work for nature, climate change, biodiversity, that should happen in parallel. But we know how to unstuck the pipes. We just need to do it and not see it as as a slowdown. Even if for some people in the society, we need to slow down, but not entirely for everybody, but a certain section of society needs to slow down, to let the past catch up, integrate it, learn and continue. And that's, I think, an elegant process. But it needs a lot of relational skills to do that.

Christiana: [00:29:44] Can I just say that in my own words, just to see, I want to reflect back Thomas, just to see if I understood your concept in response to Tom's excellent question, because I do think that there would be the temptation to go like, oh my God, as though this weren't complicated enough, now I first have to become a perfect human being before I can do, but before we can do anything. And I think what you're saying is, no, this this is this is not about, one thing leading to the other. This is not a chronological development of first, we, you know, let go of our past or liquefy. I love that word liquefy. What you're saying is, inasmuch as we realize that to a certain extent, all of us, and certainly collectively, we are stuck in that pain of the past that we have inherited, etc., etc., that in and of itself is acting as a handbrake to the creativity and innovation that we need to address climate change, biodiversity laws, inequities, you name it, right, patriarchy, etc., etc., etc. the whole, you know, poly crisis, that big whole package that seems so stuck and so overwhelming, as you said, will continue to have that feeling for us because the way that we approach it is from a stuck position. If we're able to soften that and to move the energy that is stuck there, into a much more transformational, enabling energy now we have unleashed many possibilities to deal with the poly crisis that we didn't know before. Is that a fair?

Thomas Hübl: [00:31:34] Absolutely. Beautifully summarized. And as you said, it doesn't have to be chronological. We need to all do our work. And if we all work together, we will do all our piece. And I trust that you do yours because that's your you know, that's your core, core piece to do. And if you trust that I do mine, we work together and we don't need to all be constantly engaged in each other's pieces. But I think what you said is true, that, you know, let's let's see this like trauma stress, individual, ancestral, collective is over consuming natural resources. It's burning our bodies. We see more and more how trauma stress and trauma is at the base of so many health care issues. So it's in if my body is nature, which I believe my body is nature. So then excessive stress and that's not the regular stress. I have a project to finish and I work 16 hours. This is this is stress. That's great. But excessive stress that I can't regulate.

Christiana: [00:32:37] Chronic, chronic stress.

Thomas Hübl: [00:32:38] Chronic excessive stress is over consuming natural resources. So let's say billions of people carry some of it inside. How can we ask to build sustainable societies when billions of people can't live in themselves sustainably because it's not sustainable. And so if, if and some, some of us have little 2% maybe of that and some of us have much more of that, and then we build organization, we build an economical model, we build all kinds of structures that are a replication of the same thing. And then we have sensational news feeds that just activate the same thing again and again and again through the way things are being displayed. Then we create a social media landscape where we see that displayed all the time. So we have so many mirrors at the moment of how we look like inside. So the, the, the, the technological nervous system mirrors us back how what are our interiors looks like. And then people say we could do it, we could have done it differently. And I would say, no, that's the point. We couldn't have done it differently because we can't and not our in the in the mind we can all have thousands of ideas how to do things, but then when we get triggered, we we overreact. And when that stress gets triggered, it it burns our parts of our bodies over years and decades. So I think we have to see that our inner world needs attention, and we need the space it takes to integrate some of it to be to literally live in a much deeper flow with nature and to deal with resources in the way we, that is more sustainable, because now, because, oh, we should live more sustainably, but we actually cannot. That's the point. And and it looks like as if, oh, we are building an economical system that is too extractive. Yeah because that's what we do. And if we see that as a mirror and not as a mistake, then we say, oh, let's look at ourselves collectively, individually, let's look at ourselves. And from there we can build another system.

Paul: [00:34:56] The way out is in, Tom.

Tom: [00:34:59] Thomas, thank you so much. I mean, this is this is wonderful. And what I love about so many things about what you said. But, you know, we see so much of this flowering of the the embracing of trauma in society. I think that in hearing what you just said then, it's the first time I've heard anyone so clearly elucidate, you know, an end point to that and an outcome that changes how the world is. And that's incredibly important that that provides a context to that process and a meaning for it. So thank you very much for that. We we ask all of our guests one question, before we let them go. And that is connected to the name of our podcast. So I wonder if you would be kind enough to tell us something that you are optimistic about and something that makes you outraged?

Thomas Hübl: [00:35:37] That's a great question. What I'm optimistic about, since I facilitate a lot of individuals, processes, organizations and also larger processes in society over this decades that I do that, I've learned to deeply listen to the intelligence that is within different systems, individuals, families, organizations. So what I'm optimistic about is that we know everybody knows inside the intelligence is that you don't need to go to the tree and say, okay, create the leaf, create the branch, create this. If the if the tree has the environment to grow, it will do what it needs to do. And and so I'm very optimistic about that, the whole intelligence, how we as a living system develop or need to develop is already in us. And and I trust that very much. The second thing that I'm optimistic about that is connected to that is we all have a tremendously powerful ally, and that's the self-healing mechanism of the biosphere. We all know this from our bodies. Everybody most probably cut themselves once in life at least, and we see how the body is healing or how bones are healing. And that mechanism wants to heal. We just need to enable, we just need to take care of the inhibitions. Why that sometimes isn't happening. And I think if we become more skilled to release the inhibitions, then the system will flourish by itself. And that skill is a great skill. So I'm very optimistic that we as a living system, have all the intelligence inside that we need to solve this. And I'm not sure if there's something that I'm really outraged about, it's very, I don't know if I would call it outraged. It's painful to me to see in like when I'm attuned to various situations on the planet, I can feel strongly the pain that in some places we are in. And I'm wondering why we are not crying more tears given the pain that we are in.

Christiana: [00:38:00] Well, I do my fair share of tear dropping, that's for sure. I invite everyone else to contribute to that effort.

Paul: [00:38:07] Role model, role model.

Thomas Hübl: [00:38:09] That's very good. I'm happy to hear that.

Tom: [00:38:13] Thomas, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much. We really appreciate you taking the time. A fascinating insight. And really, you know, and a different point of view for our listeners, which is what we try and do. So hugely value your, your time and and all your work.

Thomas Hübl: [00:38:26] Thank all of you, it was really beautiful.

Christiana: [00:38:29] Yes Thomas, thank you so much. And I particularly appreciate Thomas, how you so eloquently draw the relationship between the individual, the collective, the here and now, the past, the future, all of that which we sort of mentally silo, and I think you've done such a brilliant job of, explaining how all of this flows into each other. There are really no walls, either between levels of the system or in fact, moments in history, past, present and future. And you've done that beautifully. Thank you so much for that.

Paul: [00:39:05] Thank you.

Thomas Hübl: [00:39:06] Thank you.

Clay: [00:39:13] So there you go. Another episode of Outrage + Optimism. I'm Clay, producer of this podcast. Something a little different this week. Thank you to Thomas Hübl for his expertise and insight. We have links to all of Thomas's work online, including his newest book, Attuned Practicing Our Interdependence to Heal our Trauma and our World. Something very aligned with our podcast. So please go check that out. And I know you like podcasts. Thomas also has a podcast. It's titled Point of Relation with Thomas Hübl. If you enjoyed this conversation with Thomas, you will definitely enjoy his podcast. So thank you to Thomas. Okay, last week I mentioned I might have a couple of items for you, and I'm happy to report that I'm here to deliver on that promise. So two items for you. Number one, Outrage + Optimism is officially in the running to win the British Podcast Awards Listeners Choice category in the show notes below, I have a link to go vote for our podcast. You can click on our podcast name to vote for us, and then they send you an email to confirm that it's your vote. So that's super important. Make sure you check your email and click to confirm that it's you that's voting and that's it. You can vote from anywhere in the world, not just in the UK, so please be sure to check that link.

Clay: [00:40:36] Voting closes in August, so you'll be hearing us mention this a few times. Thank you for your vote. And number two, we have officially launched our 2024 Listener Feedback survey. It's only one page, so it won't take much of your time, but this feedback that we get from you informs us on how to do the podcast and what to cover. It acts kind of like a North Star as we navigate making a podcast for you, the listener community of this podcast. So please take a few minutes, fill it out. You get to suggest guests, topics, and more. This is a perfect opportunity to put right in front of us what you think, how we can improve, and what you want more of. So link below for that. Thank you for taking the time to fill it out. Appreciate it. All right. As Christiana mentioned, we will be back next week with another episode. I hope you enjoy your weekend. Father's Day is coming up here in the US so you know it's not too late. Make sure you have your cards and your socks ready to go. Much love to all of you. We are looking forward to seeing you right back here next week.


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