286: Why ignoring women endangers the climate | International Women's Day 2025

To mark International Women’s Day, Christiana Figueres is joined by top climate scientist Dr Katharine Hayhoe to ask, are women key to solving the climate crisis?

About this episode

Are women the key to solving the climate crisis? Why are they - and children - so disproportionately affected by the issue? And how can men step up to support change?

To mark International Women’s Day, Christiana Figueres is joined by top climate scientist Dr Katharine Hayhoe.

As well as being Distinguished Professor and Endowed Chair at Texas Tech University, Katharine is an influential voice in communicating science at the ‘kitchen table’ level. She and Christiana reflect on the barriers women face in STEM roles, Katharine’s work with Science Moms highlights the impact of the crisis on children and the power of women in conversations about the climate.

Women make up just over a third of STEM professionals in the United States and only a quarter of earth science professors globally. In an era where diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives are being rolled back by President Donald Trump’s government, there’s never been a more urgent need for diverse voices in science. Leading data scientist Hannah Ritchie asks how we communicate in this new landscape.

Plus, Katharine shares how her Evangelical Christian faith fuels—rather than conflicts with—her climate work, as she and Christiana they celebrate how love can be the driving force for all genders to unite for climate justice.

Together with Christiana, co-hosts Tom Rivett-Carnac and Paul Dickinson reflect on why diverse perspectives lead to better solutions and ask how men can support greater gender equality in STEM. Throughout, we hear from incredible women worldwide with inspiring messages for International Women’s Day. From Pat Mitchell and her work on Project Dandelion to Natalie Isaacs of 1 Million Women - plus a rallying cry from Fabian Dattner of Homeward Bound.

Learn more

📺 Watch the Science Moms campaign ad broadcast during the Superbowl

🗣️ Read the Science Moms guide on how to talk about climate change with friends, family, or strangers

🤩 Be inspired by Katharine Hayhoe’s TED Talk

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Producer: Jarek Zaba

Video Producer: Caitlin Hanrahan

Exec Producer: Ellie Clifford

Commissioning Editor: Sarah Thomas

This is a Persephonica production for Global Optimism and is part of the Acast Creator Network.

Full Transcript

Tom: [00:00:03] Hello and welcome to Outrage and Optimism. I'm Tom Rivett-Carnac.

Christiana: [00:00:06] I'm Christiana Figueres.

Paul: [00:00:08] And I'm Paul Dickinson.

Tom: [00:00:09] Today, in the face of all the manmade problems that we spend so much time being concerned about in our world today, we are celebrating International Women's Day. Plus, we speak to Doctor Katherine Hayhoe. Thanks for being.

Paul: [00:00:21] Here.

Tom: [00:00:22] Okay, friends, who has become a bit of a tradition that every year we do a special episode for International Women's Day and what a pleasure and a privilege it is to do that. I was doing a little bit of research on International Women's Day, which is March 8th. This episode, if you're listening to it, the day it comes out, you're just a couple of days before that. And it has a remarkable history that stretches back all the way to the time before the suffragettes started in New York City. And there's been a lot of interesting parts of history. So welcome. And how wonderful to be here to celebrate International Women's Day.

Christiana: [00:00:49] Wait. Hold on. You can't just say that and then not give us that history.

Paul: [00:00:52] Exactly what? What's the thing?

Tom: [00:00:54] All right. Okay.

Paul: [00:00:55] All right.

Tom: [00:00:56] So, earliest reported International Women's Day was the women's Day, held on February 28th in 1909, in New York. So that was the first one. But it was just like a one off event. So let's bear in mind. This is before universal suffrage. This is before the suffragettes in the UK. And and we had a voting equality around the world. There's then various other bits of interesting history that listeners may or may not know. For example, it became a sort of regular, repeatable thing the following year, as a result of a decision made at the International Socialist Women's Conference in Copenhagen. But it wasn't until eight years later that it really made history. When the Women's Day event in Russia, which happened in Petrograd and women went on strike, calling for bread and peace and more equal equality of rights. This marked the beginning of the February Revolution, which was in turn part of the Russian Revolution, and years later, Leon Trotsky, who may be well remembered by many listeners as revolutionary leader, wrote that he did not foresee that this Women's Day would inaugurate a revolution and lead to the downfall of Tsarism. So there's an interesting history. International women's day. Oh, yeah.

Christiana: [00:02:05] I'm very tempted to quote one of my daughters, who, when they were very little, and we would pray at night and I would finish up by saying Amen, and they would go, no more a(wo)men.

Paul: [00:02:18] Quite right.

Christiana: [00:02:19] So a(wo)men is my reaction to that historical information from you, Tom?

Tom: [00:02:26] Well, and it's historical, but also what an interesting moment to be marking International Women's Day. If you look at, you know, and we've talked about this a lot on our podcast, look at the problems that the world has that have exploded in the world around us in the course of the last 4 or 5 weeks since the inauguration of Donald Trump. There's been this breakdown in relationships with Ukraine. Donald Trump and JD Vance took Zelenskyy on in the Oval Office. There has now been this enormous handwringing across Europe, the potential sliding of Europe into a broader war, a us becoming more isolationist. You know what's been absent from all of those complete mess ups of international affairs?

Christiana: [00:03:01] Women.

Tom: [00:03:02] Exactly.

Paul: [00:03:03] It's true. And, you know, there's certainly, as a climate change person, I've seen this extraordinary gender divide. There is some sort of ridiculous NGO in the UK called the Global Warming Policy Foundation, which argues that, you know, we shouldn't really do anything about climate change. And it's entirely there's one woman on the website, there's about 60 men, literally. Go and have a look. Uh, all these men who are have a preponderance to sort of ego and not thinking about the future and not having collective values. And I'm just proud to stand in solidarity with women on International Women's Day, because the greatest leaders I've known in my life have been women.

Tom: [00:03:37] Very well said Paul. I would agree with that 100%. And in particular, and we've seen this over the last years, women, when they have been in positions of power and responsibility, have driven more collaboration. Look at the response to Covid, look at climate change policies. We know this is well established and listen to this podcast will be familiar with all of this. Female leadership solves complex global problems. It's what we need in the world right now, and it's slightly heartbreaking that we're speaking at this moment when there has been this quote unquote desire in the US and elsewhere for what's called masculine energy. And I don't exactly know what's referred to by that, but I don't think it's necessarily anything very good that is going to be coming to the world if we see more of that. So as part of this episode, we are going to have a brilliant interview with Doctor Katherine Hayhoe as our main interview for our International Women's Day episode. But throughout this episode, we're going to hear from brilliant women from all around the world who are doing incredible work on climate. And we are going to start that with this note from our good friend Pat Mitchell, co-founder of a women led campaign for climate justice.

Natalie Isaacs: [00:04:36] On this International Women's Day, I am feeling the outrage of the rollback on women's rights and equality everywhere. Optimism, because I believe that women are the world's greatest potential ally for solving the many challenges and opportunity I'm feeling for the women on the front lines of the climate and nature crisis. To connect and work together and become a new and necessary collective power. That power is needed to activate change. Project dandelion, along with my co-founders Mary Robinson, Rhonda Carnegie, Hafsat Abiola, we're committed to the vision for a climate safe for everyone and to get there, elevate the narrative that women leaders are the solution. And like the dandelion, we are regenerative, resilient and we will be an unstoppable force.

Tom: [00:05:32] What a hero. She's so great.

Christiana: [00:05:34] What a hero. Such a good friend. And. And spoken really from the heart. She has just stood for women, for women's rights, for equality, for, I wouldn't say years, for decades. Her voice really is always at the tone that is needed at the place that is needed. Honestly, so much respect and appreciation for Pat Mitchell 100%.

Tom: [00:06:02] And just before we now go to the conversation you had with Doctor Katherine Hayhoe. Christiana, I also want to say to you, I'd just like to remember a story from the days when we were together at the UN, and I remember coming in to work one day and in the hall where we both worked in the corridor, and probably half the people who worked in that corridor were women. And Christiana had come in an hour or two before everyone else on International Women's Day, and she had placed a very high quality box containing a chocolate high heeled shoe in front of the doors. And so it had this lovely view down the corridor of like maybe ten different of these boxes. And in the middle you'd written ladies of the UNF speak. Thank you for letting me walk a mile in your shoes. And what I remember about that was not only that you were honoring them and recognizing their leadership, but you were also finding a way to also express gratitude as their leader. That's the thing that I saw really resonated and touched people, because you were coming in and saying, I honor you and I recognize you as a leader in your own right, and you helped empower them to step forward and play powerful roles. So just recognizing you and the role you have played then and many other times.

Christiana: [00:07:14] Oh thank you Tom. Thank you Tom, that that was a really fun, mischievous little thing to come in early out and put those chocolate very high heeled shoes, one for each of those fantastic women. And as you say, out of out of true gratitude and recognition for for the role that they specifically but all women play in contributing to a better world, a better family, a better society. So thank you for that.

Paul: [00:07:47] Gro Harlem Brundtland, that brilliant leader. She said that in Norway, they have no less than 40% of any one gender in any major committee. Because the problem is not only the great absence of women in senior leadership roles, but the excess of men. And can I just ask you, Christiana, did you not say that the system that you had to work in, did you call it not an ecosystem, but an ecosystem? Is that maybe a little bit of a problem associated with men? Is that unfair?

Christiana: [00:08:12] Just a little bit unfair, maybe. But yes, I would say that in general. And it's always difficult to to make generalizations. But I do think in general that women have a little bit less of an ego, are more collaborative, are more inclusive, wish to work in collective leadership with each other, and are usually guided by long term benefit rather than short term needs. So it is quite the contrast, that kind of spirit and that kind of commitment. It is quite the contrast to what we're seeing coming out of the US government right now, which is, am I right in saying solidly not just men, but white men?

Tom: [00:09:01] Well, I mean, it's against a low bar, but there are a high proportion of women in this cabinet than there were in the previous Trump cabinet. But anyway, that's a different issue that maybe we'll get into later. However, let us turn to the main event of this week, which is your brilliant conversation with our good friend Katherine Hayhoe. Why don't you say a few words of introduction to her before we go to the interview?

Christiana: [00:09:20] So Doctor Katherine Hayhoe is an atmospheric scientist and a climate scientist. She was she's Canadian. She was born in Toronto, and she is an evangelical practising Christian and also at the same time, one of the leading climate scientists of the world, focusing on assessing the regional to local scale impacts of climate change on human systems and the natural environment. That is very unusual because most climate scientists focus on global impacts, and the fact that she is able to translate the bigger picture, the global changes that are occurring to local impacts is actually quite unusual. And she has really dedicated her life to this so that she can motivate people of all countries, all cities everywhere to be able to identify what they can do, what they can do to contribute to addressing climate change. Her leadership is particularly important in these days, given the role of women in Stem and what the US administration is trying to do to women in Stem. And Paul and Tom, before you stop me. We are committed to no acronyms. So Stem S.t.e.m. Is science, technology, engineering and math.

Tom: [00:10:53] Very good. Excellent. All right. Let's go to the interview and we'll be back afterwards.

Christiana: [00:11:00] Katherine, thank you so much for joining us here on Outrage and Optimism. So Tom, Paul and I have already told listeners a little bit about you, Katherine, but how would you like to introduce yourself today? Because this is not the first time that you're on our podcast.

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:11:16] I would say that I am a climate scientist who studies how climate change is already affecting our lives in the places where we live. And I'm on a mission to get everybody to use their voice to start having a conversation about why it matters and what we can do about it, because that is really our path to a better future. I'm convinced it begins with a conversation today.

Christiana: [00:11:37] And listeners ought to know. Katherine, you are, I think, the only person that I have ever met who, when I write an email to the answer that comes back is my inbox is a black hole. That's what your automatic response to all emails is now. Spoken as a true astrophysicist, but I'm going to actually borrow that from you because I know what the overwhelm in in emails feels like. So as you know, Katherine, we have chosen you as our distinguished guest for International Women's Day. Why? Because we very strongly feel that it is so important to continue to support women in Stem. And Tom, Paul and I are in a battle against acronyms. Do you know what the origin of that acronym is, Catherine, by any chance?

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:12:38] Well, that's a good question. I should know because my dad was a science teacher. Yes. And it came into being, I know, when he was teaching. So I remember I first heard it from him. So it's been around for a long time. And it refers to the fact that women are underrepresented in these fields, and there's no reason why we should be. I mean, as many women's brains work that way as men's brains do. But even in my own field of earth science, you know, when I became a professor, only 13% of earth science professors were women. Now we're up to 25%, but we're nowhere near 50%. And it's estimated we won't be till, you know, halfway through the century. So there's this big gender gap, which why does it matter? It matters because science actually tells us that having a broad range of perspectives and areas of expertise helps us come up with more robust solutions. And don't we need solutions today more than ever?

Christiana: [00:13:29] You know what is interesting, Katherine? And you and I have been in the environmental field, although I am not in Stem, I'm in the social sciences, but I have noticed that in the past at least ten years, the vast majority who are in climate activism, climate negotiations, NGOs, etc., etc. are women. But that is not true for the sciences. Why is that?

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:13:58] Well, there's many barriers. You know, when they used to ask kids to draw a scientist, they would draw man. And so there was a lot of effort put into educating children. And I still remember when I took high school physics, I remember the reactions of my friends were, why are you taking that? Girls don't take advanced physics. Wow. So there was this societal sort of bias against it, and there's been so much work put into now getting girls in, but there's an attrition rate. And so the further girls go along Stem careers. Now the attrition rate gets bigger and bigger, because often the careers we're in are not built to support people who have babies, take pregnancy leaves, have families, have to go pick up the kids at school. And that reflects the also the gender imbalance in relationships in terms of who does more of the work with the house and the children. So there's a whole host of factors working against women. There's no one fix. But as with climate change, that means that there's a lot of things we can do to make a difference.

Christiana: [00:14:55] And I am assuming that one of the impacts from Trump's crackdown on DEI, which is diversity, equity and inclusion, is really hitting the capacity for women to be able to work in science jobs. And on top of that, Katherine, he's rescinding Biden's climate policies. It's almost like if I look at you as an example of where we ought to be as a society, this is a double crackdown, one on women's opportunities and secondly, on climate policies. Do you feel like you're being sandwiched?

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:15:40] Well, I would add one more layer to the sandwich. It's a club sandwich.

Christiana: [00:15:44] Because.

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:15:45] Science in general is also being being attacked. So mass firings at the National Science Foundation, changes in the overhead rate that universities can use that support research. There's all these different things going on. And now people would say, shouldn't we just be hiring the best people for the jobs? Right? And of course, we want the best people for the jobs. But they did a study a number of years ago where they took CVS or resumes for a lab manager in biology, and all they did was they changed the name at the top of the CV to be male or female, and they sent it around to hundreds of professors who would be hiring this person. And they asked them how qualified the person was for the job and how much they would offer them as a starting salary And what they found was that the same CV with a woman's name at the top was deemed less qualified and offered less money by both women and men who'd be making the hire, and that just wow. And that shows why we have to have these policies in place, because we as a culture, do not view women and people of color as equal to men. Yet in the year 2025.

Christiana: [00:16:56] It is a legacy that we are pulling with us from, I would almost say thousands of years. Isn't it? Because over thousands of years we've given men more education, more opportunities, more opportunities to sit at decision tables, and it has been going on for thousands of years. So the fact that we are now trying to catch up with ourselves means that we do have to take what, for some could be radical measures, which are, for example, All those measures to be very sensitive to women, people of color, or any other difference that is not white male. Mhm.

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:17:39] And again people might say, well why does it matter for us. But back to those research findings showing that when more people are involved in a science field or you're probably familiar with that, study yourself that the study that showed that when more women were part of Parliament in a country or Congress or whatever decision making body they had, those countries were more likely to have better climate policy. Right.

Christiana: [00:18:02] It has been shown that women are more likely to think long term. We're more likely to be inclusive and collaborative. Why is it so difficult to recognize this when that is really what is needed? What what what what is it in us from a scientific point of view? As you can answer it from a science point of view. What is it in us that Let's bars us from understanding the value of having women at the table.

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:18:31] That is a great question. I feel like if we if we could figure that out, that's not the physical sciences, that's the social sciences. That's the social sciences of understanding society, culture, norms, even policies, even the way systems are structured because they were built for a certain type of person. It works against women. So just an example. In my field, when I had a baby, I had to figure out where I was going to put him, and I could not get into the campus daycare because it was way oversubscribed. I signed up when I was pregnant. I think he got an admission letter when he was four years old and I'm like, well, that's too late.

Christiana: [00:19:06] That's too late. Yeah, exactly.

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:19:08] So and then a lot of the socialization, like when you have visiting scholars, their seminars are typically late in the day and then everybody goes out with them to have, you know, a reception or a dinner or something like that. And if you have young children at home.

Christiana: [00:19:23] And where are the mothers?

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:19:25] Exactly. So? So just in my own narrow area, I can see all kinds of barriers that I talk about with my fellow colleagues. To us just even participating fully in the activities that go with our position. And that's just a microcosm of what goes on around the world.

Christiana: [00:19:41] So, Katherine, what have you done about this? Because I think we understand, right, what the diagnosis is, what the problem is. What have you been able to do to almost extend a hand to other women coming up in your field? Younger women. What can we do?

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:19:58] Yes. Well, in in science and in academia in general, social science, physical science, humanities. The older we get, the more we're asked to write references and recommendations for people who are being considered for fellowships or awards or just promotion and tenure. And so I always look for and try to write letters for women who are up and coming, who are using their voices to call for change, to show why what they study matters to society today. So I'm trying to do exactly that. Reach a hand down the ladder and give them a hand up. But I think that we can do more than that. And so a few years ago, I teamed up with a number of my fellow scientists who were also mothers, and we worked to create an organization called Science Moms, which is about mothers using their voice to advocate for climate, because the organization we work with potential energy. I know you're familiar with potential energy, does market research, and they have found that around the world, the number one motivation for people to act on climate is not jobs.

Christiana: [00:20:57] Is a four letter word. Exactly. That begins with 'L' love. It is.

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:21:04] Love. Who knows love better than a mother and a parent and anybody who cares for their children. And so not just helping to dismantle the barriers, but turning it around into a superpower, I think, is what we can do.

Christiana: [00:21:18] I'm sure you contributed to the video. Amazing video that became a very popular Super Bowl ad that we will put in the show notes, because it is an absolutely beautiful, beautiful video.

Super Bowl Ad: [00:21:33] As a scientist, I know by the time she takes her first breath, 9 billion more tons of carbon pollution will be in the air. When she takes her first steps. Wildfires will have burned millions more acres she could have explored. The day she gets her first pet. There are thousands of newly extinct.

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:21:55] Oh, it just stabs you right in the heart. I warn people you need a Kleenex when you're going to watch this video, because it's so powerful and it shows you why climate change matters. It's not about the polar bears and the ice sheets. So though those are being affected, it's literally about the people who we love most in the world and the future that we're leaving to them.

Christiana: [00:22:17] Katherine, you know, you have many admirers, both male and female, around the world. You are such a staunch defender and such a bright light on the hill for so many people. But speaking of admiration, we actually have some people who sent us little voice notes with questions for you for this episode. And one is I'm sure you know her well. Hannah Ritchie how Hannah Ritchie at the very young age. What is she 31, 32? How she has produced a book with more data than I have ever seen in any book is just beyond me. So my total admiration for Hannah, she has been on the on the podcast with us, and she sent a little voice note for you. Load More

Hannah Ritchie: [00:23:04] High outrage and optimism. It's Hannah Ritchie here. I am a massive fan of Christina and Katharine, so I'm really, really looking forward to the conversation. I had one question for Katharine, which is that she has focused a lot on how to effectively message to different audiences. Right. So focusing on what to emphasize, what to focus on depending on who you're speaking to. But I'm also interested in how she thinks this has changed over time. Right. Does she emphasize the same stuff now that she did maybe 5 or 10 years ago?

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:23:33] That is a great question. And she's totally right. But the underlying commonality is we have to begin with what people already care about with love. So if we can figure out what people already love, who they love, the places they love, the things they love. That's where we start. So it might look different on the surface, but underneath it's all the same. It's about love. So how have I changed? Well, originally I started with the head. So I'm a scientist. And like Hannah, I started with all the data, all the facts, all the information. But soon I realized that if I couldn't help people connect it to their heart, why they cared, it wouldn't be enough. I got people even saying things to me like, oh, well, you're a scientist, so of course you care. But why should I care? So that head to heart connection is what I talked a lot about ten years ago. But then I realized you could have everybody worried. And actually not just in the US, where I live, but across the world. The majority of people are worried, but the majority of people don't know what to do and they're not activated. So I realized there's a third essential part, and that is the hands. If we don't help people connect their head to their heart, to their hands, we could have a whole lot of worried people and they're not doing anything. And what matters is what we do. So I would say what has changed is I focus equally, if not more sometimes now on efficacy, on what we can do to make a difference and on examples of things people are doing to make a difference. And I have this weekly newsletter, Talking Climate, where every week I share not so good news. That's the heart. And then I share good news. That's examples of other things people are doing. And then I share what you can do. So I'm sharing two parts efficacy to one part heart these days.

Christiana: [00:25:18] Two thirds to one third. I like that, I like that, but also, Katharine, you make it very human, very accessible. It's not complicated. I don't know legal documents in cops. And no, you bring it really down to almost the kitchen table. How can I, as an individual, how can I contribute to this? I think that is such an important contribution.

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:25:44] Thank you. And I think again, what you do is so important because you take all of that legalese. There's there's nothing more obscure than international frameworks, and you translate that down into the heart to helping people make that heart connection, because I really believe that to care about this issue, you don't have to be a climate diplomat. You don't have to be a scientist. You don't have to be an activist or an advocate. You just have to be a human being living on planet Earth.

Christiana: [00:26:13] We're all that. Katharine, you have been such a courageous arc of communication, not just between women and science and the role that women play in science, but also your communication arc between science and religion. You being such an active evangelical Christian, which you got from your mother? Correct.

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:26:43] Both my parents.

Christiana: [00:26:44] Both your parents. And now that we have Trump in the white House. My sense is that that arc between evangelical Christian practice and science, specifically climate change, has become even more difficult. Has it?

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:27:07] It's been a long time in the making in the United States. So it's really important to understand that, first of all, there is no conflict between what the Bible says and are concerned to care for or be good stewards of this planet, to love our sisters and our brothers around the world, to work for their benefit, and to address issues like climate change that affect their food, their water, their safety, their health. In fact, I truly believe that if we take the Bible seriously, we'd be out at the front of the line demanding climate action. So what's happening in the US? Because in other places around the world you have. So, for example, when you were the secretary of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, one of the official delegates from the Philippines was Bishop Ephraim Tendero, who was the head of the World Evangelical Alliance at that time, and he was a delegate to the Paris Agreement. Around the world, there are Christians who are advocating and calling for change. So the question is, what's going on in the US? Because in the US, people might read what Pope Francis says very strongly about climate change.

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:28:16] And it doesn't change their opinion about climate change. Even if they say they're a Catholic, it just changes their opinion about the Pope. How could that be? In the US over the last 50 to 60 years. So it's not just the last year. It's not just the last ten years. Over the last 50 to 60 years, there's been a concerted investment in aligning ultraconservative ideology and politics with religion. And there's some really good books that lay this out. The scandal of the evangelical mind is one of the best ones, and it starts at the American Revolution. And it goes forward to today explaining how science and religion were deliberately brought into conflict for ideological reasons. For over a hundred years until now, we find ourselves in the position today where 40% of people who call themselves evangelical in the US Don't go to church. So where are they learning anything? They're not learning it at church. They're learning it from the news, from social media, from. Studies have shown from the thought leaders they follow, most of whom are either political or highly partisan news figures.

Christiana: [00:29:26] So let me understand. They don't go to church, but they firmly believe that their religious practice is at odds with climate change.

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:29:35] They do, but their statement of faith is written first by their political ideology, and only a distant second by the actual Bible. And if the two come into conflict and we see increasing examples of the two come into conflict, where people literally quote Jesus and somebody says, oh, well, that's not what we believe. I mean, it's one thing to say, you don't believe the Pope if you're Catholic. It's another thing to say you don't believe Jesus if you're a Christian. Yeah. And so we're seeing that literally people's statement of faith is written by their politics. And so today, American Christianity is a separate religion that in many cases has nothing in common with Christianity itself.

Christiana: [00:30:13] I mean, this. That's very frustrating, very frustrating, because at least for me, Katharine, my spirituality is the basis of my resilience in being able to continue working on so many issues. And I'm actually speaking to you from Tanzania, where we're having a retreat for climate activists who come from 8 to 10 different spiritual practices, including Muslims who are observing Ramadan this week, including Christian Catholics, including Maasai, Aboriginal religious practices, including other Christianity Practices, some Buddhists, so many different kinds of spiritual practices or no spiritual practices all coming together because the frustration and the anger and the grief about what is being destroyed and what is not being done to protect the planet, is so deep that we have to touch into our spiritual roots to be able to have the personal resilience that we need for the planetary resilience. So to those people who are not able to touch into that root. How do they face the world?

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:31:42] I completely agree with you, and I think that that is one of the major reasons we see such a rise in anxiety, distress, mental health concerns related to climate change. If we don't have that, that inner resilience and that long term hope to draw on, what do we have? So you mentioned earlier how my reply on my email is my inbox is a black hole. And that's because I used to be an astronomy student and I was planning to be an astronomer. But when I took a class on climate change just to finish my degree, it was just a breadth requirement to to tick off a box before I went on to graduate school in astronomy. That's when I realized that climate change is not only an environmental issue, it's a human issue. And it is profoundly unfair. It affects all of us, but it doesn't affect us equally. It affects women and children more than men. Yes, it affects people who are disadvantaged and marginalized, who don't have a safe place to live, or enough food to eat more than those of us who do. It exacerbates refugee crises. It exacerbates all kinds of gender and racial inequalities.

Christiana: [00:32:45] And so it hits the global South much more than the global North. And the global South is much less prepared to deal with it. And least responsible.

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:32:53] And even in rich cities, the poor neighborhoods are more impacted than the rich neighborhoods.

Christiana: [00:32:58] Yes.

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:32:59] And so, yes, as a person of faith, as a Christian. My reaction to that was that is not fair. And I have to do everything I can to help fix that. And so I am fighting to reduce the suffering of one.

Christiana: [00:33:11] Wait wait wait wait, Katherine. Hold on, hold on. I have never heard this from you. I have never heard that your motivation to work on climate stems more from ethics than from scientific understanding. That is a new one on me. Is that a correct statement that I've just made?

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:33:33] Oh, yes.

Christiana: [00:33:35] Wow.

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:33:36] 100%. I mean, I was studying quasars, which are ultra bright galactic nuclei that are so powerful that other galaxies cluster around them. And in terms of just the science of trying to understand what's happening on the opposite side of the universe with nothing more than the observations that we have today. I mean, it's fascinating, but when I found out how profoundly unfair. Climate change is. And when I found out that I had the skill set in physics to understand the climate system and to do what I do is I do high resolution climate projections that are very localized, that help people prepare for heat and flood and drought and wildfire and hurricanes. I realized, how can I not do everything I can to help to prevent suffering? That is my entire motivation for being a climate scientist.

Christiana: [00:34:24] Wow. Okay, Katharine, thank you for stating it so, so clearly I had. Honestly, I knew that you are a practicing Christian, but I had never known that that held the the root of your dedication to climate change. I'm I'm actually I'm very impressed.

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:34:47] Well, you're one of the people who inspires me the most. So thank you for what you do.

Christiana: [00:34:52] Well, this is a mutual admiration society here. Katharine, thank you so much. Thank you for reminding us of something as simple and as powerful as that. We're all humans. We can all do something about what we are seeing right here, right in front of us, right in our neighborhood, right in our home. Thank you. Thank you so much for that. Really appreciated.

Katherine Hayhoe: [00:35:18] Thank you for having me.

Christiana: [00:35:32] Hi. Welcome back. Okay. So we are now together, Tom, Paul and myself. And I'm wondering what do you think about that conversation with Katharine Hayhoe? Paul, what blended for you?

Paul: [00:35:44] Well, she's such a brilliant communicator. I mean, she made many, many, many different points incredibly succinctly and clearly. I think the ones that I would pull out are women in parliament, leading to better climate policy. Thinking about equality between the genders is actually helping to protect us from our own prejudices. I think that's really important. And she actually referred to both men and women having these prejudices. And to be conscious of them, it's that familiarity bias that, you know, it's inside all of us and that we have to kind of escape from consciously. And I think the final thing that I really enjoyed was when she was talking about science mums and and the motivator, the real motivator for people acting on climate change being love. And I felt that men seldom speak with such clarity, with such wisdom. And there's something about this idiotic machismo culture failing to appreciate love as a, as a, as a sort of, um, emotional spirit that can drive so much more than the kind of myopic focus or the or the sort of alleged energy of men. Love is so much more holistic and and caring and durable and and rich resource that we can draw on. So those those are some things that Katherine, that kind of struck me in the best possible way in my little heart.

Christiana: [00:37:03] Tom.

Tom: [00:37:04] Well, I mean, again and you've said it, Paul. I mean, Katherine, not only is she such a brilliant human being and an amazing communicator, but she obviously exists in the crosshairs of the political culture that we're facing. And that's a very difficult place to be. She gets a lot of pushback and rejection and anger because she is an evangelical Christian and a scientist. The different characteristics means that you necessarily have to bridge worlds. And in my thinking, that's what we need more of. But it can be a difficult place to sit. And Katherine has been very brave. I mean, I thought she was so brilliant on many things, but in particular pointing out how today many Christians have their statement of faith written first by their political ideology and secondly by the Bible. And actually, what you find there is a kind of tribalism and an identity politics that makes it very hard to reach out and communicate. And it just made me really reflect on what are the vectors and the pathways to bring people into broader conversation. When something as powerful and as fundamental as your identity can change the way you feel about your faith. It really made a big impact on me that that you will change your view of the Pope because he is saying something about climate change. So what do we do? How do we find pathways? Of course, it's about protect what you love, but it means that you can't sort of persuade people by presenting them with a more compelling argument by someone they trust, because they'll just change their view. You have to be more thoughtful in in a manner that gets the point across, without people feeling triggered and without them feeling like they've been attacked even by somebody that they trust and respect. Because if you do that, you might precipitate the opposite outcome. So I thought there was a lot in that in how she explained that.

Christiana: [00:38:58] Yeah, I agree with you. I was really quite taken by that insight that she shared with us. I thought it was very sobering to hear from her that politics takes over our ethics. So I show up in the world first with my political inclination and then second with my values and principles. Yeah, it's such an upside down world. I would have thought that we first touch into our values and principles, and then maybe we decide whether that aligns with some political movement or party or not. But values and principles seems to me so fundamental to any of us that I was really Taken aback by that insight in that statement that she made. And then I wonder. If the antidote, so to speak, to that, is actually love, because love sits underneath values and principles. Love is something that all humans share. For our family members, for other human beings, for other beings in nature. It is foundational to humanity. And on top of that, we can build values and principles and then maybe a political direction. But I actually wondered to your very question, how do we get under that?

Tom: [00:40:33] I think that has to lie at the core of something which is more universal, right? You protect what you love. And the sad truth about climate change is that everything is under threat. A couple of weeks ago, we talked about how JD Vance has confused Christian love and he now talks about that Christian love has this series of hierarchies that first you love your family, and then you love your community, and then you love your country, and then you love the rest of the world, which is kind of, I think, at odds, according to my understanding of the kind of universalism of love that this is for all of humanity. Well, but once.

Christiana: [00:41:07] Corrected by the Pope, you know.

Tom: [00:41:09] By the Pope. So. Okay. Great. So I've forgotten that bit. But of course, everyone therefore changed their views about the Pope, probably according to Katharine, which is probably true. But we should get back to the ways in which this is the International Women's Day episode. There's a couple of things we should talk about. The first is some of the ways that climate change impacts women especially. And I also think it would be good for us to talk about what men can do in particular, because that's something that's often not talked about. So people always say that women are on the frontlines of climate change. What do we mean when we say that.

Christiana: [00:41:37] There is just ample research that shows that women and children are much more severely impacted by climate change. Because more women around the world are responsible for feeding their families, they're responsible for harvesting, for bringing the food in. In many instances, for getting the firewood that is necessary for cooking meals. So the fact that agriculture is being so negatively affected by climate change means that women are having a harder and harder time feeding their families. In addition to the fact that there also studies that say that men are getting aggravated by the fact that women are not bringing home enough food or the food that the men want, so they're also being subjected to physical abuse, if not verbal abuse, by men who are getting more and more angry about less and less food. And of course, in many societies, adults eat first and then if there's anything left, children will eat. So children are also having less and less food, to say nothing of the fact of how many families are already climate refugees, because they just cannot survive where they are, and they go to refugee camps. And there, again, mostly women and children are in refugee camps because the men have gone to somewhere where they think that they can get a job. It really is one of the most painful injustices of climate change, that it is the women and children who suffer the most because it is the women and children who have affected this the least. It is not their decisions, it is not their world that they have designed and they are the ones that are being more severely impacted.

Tom: [00:43:43] Yeah. Thank you for that 100%. The statistic that hung out to me is that women are 14 times more likely to die in climate related disasters than men. I mean, it's just an astonishing statistic.

Christiana: [00:43:51] Do you know why that is? There are also more affected in climate disasters for several reasons. A they're more likely to be home, whereas men will be somewhere else in the city. Et cetera. Etc.. So they're more likely to be home. They're more likely to feel responsible to save one or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 children only having two arms to do so. And many women are still wearing their traditional dress. And traditional dresses of women are not exactly the kind of attire that is helpful to run away quickly, because the women's attires get caught up in a branch in a river. In anything that they have to run away from. So for all of those reasons. Women in the global South are much more likely to be directly impacted by natural disasters, so-called natural disasters.

Paul: [00:44:56] Thank you, Christiana, and let me come in on the other point you asked about Tom. How can then be supportive? I think it's ultimately about making space for women. The thing is, we have a preponderance of men in senior positions. They need to be selecting women as their successors and indeed making way for women now. Do you really need to be in your job? Do you not have a brilliant woman in the team who could take over from you now? The assumptions that are so bedded into our ways of thinking are shocking that. Do you remember the example from 2022 when Amanda Blanc, who's the chief executive of the insurer Aviva, which is a very large UK insurance company, one of the investors at the annual general meeting, said she wasn't the right man for the job. It's kind of absurd, mad commentary, this idiotic ways of thinking. They're ingrained in us. And I think it's it's for men to sort of hold up a mirror and think, well, wait a minute, maybe I'm perpetrating the excesses of men in positions of authority, and I can and should be promoting women because I'm going to have a better organization at the end of it, and I'm going to stop being part of this idiotic segregation. In fact, you know, this little story in the early days of my organization, writing to the 500, the chair of the board of the 500 most valuable companies in the world, and writing to one woman, that's 99.8% one gender. That's segregation. That was 22 years ago. But, you know, it's still terrible and we've got to change it.

Tom: [00:46:20] Paul, it's terrifying that that was such a low number 22 years ago, heartbreakingly, that if you look at the same number now, it's now still only 15 out of those 500.

Paul: [00:46:30] Sorry, it's 94% one gender. That's segregation. It's outrageous. I've got to do something about it. Got to change.

Tom: [00:46:36] 100% agree. Now, we do have some other brilliant voice notes from friends that we just want to share with you. So here's the first one from Natalie Isaacs, the founder of 1 Million Women in Australia.

Natalie Isaacs: [00:46:45] Hello, I'm Natalie Isaacs. I am the founder of 1 Million Women, and we are a movement of women that live climate action through everything we do. And I witness every single day the empowerment of women, women who went from, you know, the camp of inaction on climate change right through to literally living it through every, every aspect of their life. When you do something small, like you get your electricity bill down or you reduce your food waste, when you do something small and you see a result, it moves you along this road of empowerment. It helps to build your confidence. It helps you use your voice more and influence other women around you to do the same. It influences your vote. So you're voting for the politician that puts climate action at the top of the agenda, and it builds community. And there is nothing more powerful than an engaged community. And mine is this beautiful community of women. And on this International Women's Day, I thought we should all reflect on the power of community. And when we do it as a collective, it is an unstoppable force.

Tom: [00:48:02] What I love about that is how she points out that if you do something small and you see the result of it, that takes you down the road of empowerment, that actually leads to more and more action.

Paul: [00:48:11] Very fair comment.

Christiana: [00:48:12] Now we have another voice note from Fabian Gartner, who is the founder of Homeward Bound, a leadership training program for women in Stem.

Fabian Gartner: [00:48:26] Today, I'm proud to celebrate women of all ages dare, I say, particularly women 50 and over. And those of you struggling through all the wild, crazy symptoms of perimenopause, menopause, the real leadership that you can demonstrate in the world happens after that. In whale and elephant populations, the matriarchs keep peace. They help the young mums, they help raise and create safety for the young calves. They also kick out the disruptive males who are not serving the group. So I have a feeling we have the same responsibility in human society and in the not for profit sector. You see it everywhere, but we have to get into the big positions. There's a 35% higher chance of peace when women are involved in the negotiations, and those negotiations are likely to last for 15 years or more. Hard as it is, this is a real call to action. Particularly matriarchs. Rise up. We need the calmness, the wisdom, the collaboration, the The compassion and the legacy mindset. My love to you all. Should you choose to take a bolder step or a bigger step? No matter where you are, no matter who you are. I would stand beside you. Thank you.

Tom: [00:49:44] I love the fact that she talks about the fact that we need the calmness and the wisdom and the compassion of this mindset.

Paul: [00:49:49] I love it when she says there's a 35% higher chance of peace when women are involved in negotiations. That's pretty impressive statistic.

Tom: [00:49:57] So thank you to everyone who sent in those voice notes. So great to be able to share that insight. And thank you, of course, to Doctor Katherine Hayhoe for joining us this week. And thank you all for listening. We really appreciate all of you on International Women's Day. This is a moment that calls for leadership from all of us. More female leadership in the world is fundamentally what's needed at this difficult moment. We will continue to advocate for that in the years ahead. Thanks for joining us this week. We'll see you next week.

Christiana: [00:50:20] Bye bye.