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153: Why the 21st Century is for Cities and Mayors with Sadiq Khan

Cities are where we will lose or win the climate change battle.

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About this episode

Chapter 8 of the IPCC report on mitigation reported that more than half of the global population now lives in cities, and that proportion is expected to grow to about two-thirds by 2050.

That is a lot of people. And that’s a lot of emissions.

As of 2020, urban areas are the source of about 67-72% of emissions with about 100 of the highest emitting urban areas [currently] accounting for approximately 18% of the global carbon footprint.”

But with problems like urban heat, growing disparities in income and access to food and healthcare, how are mayors uniquely empowered to adapt to everything a climate emergency brings with it?

This week, we have the Mayor of London and Chair of C40, Sadiq Khan. He shares his personal journey with being diagnosed with Adult-Onset Asthma after breathing in too much pollution in London, and how educating the public and bringing people along with you in your leadership is the way forward to cleaner, greener cities.

And this week a special sample of Environmental Music Prize finalist, Holy Holy with their song ‘Hello My Beautiful World’

Enjoy the show!

Mentioned links from the episode:

LEARN: CDP Cities, States and Regions Open Data Portal

VOTE: Environmental Music Prize


Full Transcript

Tom: [00:00:12] Hello and welcome to Outrage + Optimism. I'm Tom Rivett-Carnac.

Christiana: [00:00:14] I'm Christiana Figueres.

Paul: [00:00:16] And I'm Paul Dickinson.

Tom: [00:00:18] This week we talk about the critical role of cities in dealing with the climate crisis. We speak to Sadiq Khan, mayor of London, and we have music from Environmental Music Prize finalist Holy, Holy. Thanks for being here. So welcome, listeners. This week we are going to dive into a critical issue that we have not covered yet on outrage and optimism in real detail, the detail that it deserves. And as a result of that, the whole episode is dedicated to the role of cities in dealing with the climate crisis. Now, cities clearly are at the forefront of both the impact and also the risk that we're facing right now. More than half the global population live in cities, and that is expected to grow to about two thirds by 2050. As a result, those areas are the source of a large proportion of the greenhouse gas emissions that we're going to have to mitigate in the coming years. About 72% of emissions currently come from cities. As a result of that, we are now facing a moment where either we're going to do this by dealing with it in cities, or we're going to face the impacts of not dealing with the climate crisis in a timely fashion. So that's enough of a set up for the moment. I'd love to just kick off by asking you both a question, which seems simple but is actually complicated. Are city's part of the problem, or are they part of the solution to climate change? Load More

Christiana: [00:01:39] Well, can I just jump in, Tom, and ask the two of you a different question before we answer your question.

Tom: [00:01:46] That's a very loyalty response.

Paul: [00:01:47] I'm going to ask you both the question before you now. Let me ask a question.

Christiana: [00:01:53] So here's my question. How on earth is it possible that we've been on air for two years and we have not had an episode on cities and climate change? It just boggles my mind.

Tom: [00:02:07] I blame the production team myself. It's not our fault. Of course.

Clay: [00:02:11] Hey.

Christiana: [00:02:11] Oh.

Clay: [00:02:12] Well, what? Sarah get in here.

Christiana: [00:02:18] No, no, no. I just think it's amazing and.

Tom: [00:02:21] And it's not true. We haven't talked about them. Right. But the truth is, we haven't had a dedicated episode where we delve into the issues. Yeah.

Christiana: [00:02:27] Yeah. And as you say, why? Why, why do we have to get into that? Well, a, because of rapid urbanization, despite COVID, we are where urbanization took a little breather. Actually, urbanization continues. And there are especially because of climate change, where life in rural areas is getting so much more difficult, there will be more and more urbanization. And as you said, Tom, two thirds or more of greenhouse gasses are already coming from cities. Now to your question, because you thought I wouldn't answer your question. Here is a very basic fact. There where the emissions are is exactly the place where emissions can be reduced. That is a pretty simple truth. If cities did not concentrate as many emissions as they do, they would not have the opportunity or the potential to reduce emissions. That is true of cities, that's true of any country, etc., etc.. So yes, cities are, if you want to call them part of the problem, you could. But actually city dwellers are very prone to the extreme weather events of climate change just because they already start with urban heat that we don't have in rural areas. So already the basis is urban heat. And on top of that, they are getting hotter and hotter. And since 1980, the heat has increased 500% in the largest cities of the world because of the concentration of population, all of whom are using energy, all of whom are using more and more cement, less and less green areas. So it's just absolutely dreadful now. Are they at the same time a huge potential to reduce emissions? Absolutely. And that is, I think, the exciting part.

Paul: [00:04:42] A brilliant and practical analysis, Christiana. So if I can just sort of deviate into a sort of ridiculous story, but I think it's relevant and I'm going to do it.

Christiana: [00:04:53] We shall judge whether that's true or not.

Christiana: [00:04:57] Our listeners will judge. Carry on.

Paul: [00:04:59] Our falling numbers of listeners as they begin to judge. Long long ago there were,

Christiana: [00:05:06] Once upon a time

Paul: [00:05:07] Once upon a time, long, long ago the lands and the peoples of the world developed systems for protecting themselves and growing their societies in peace and cooperation. And those systems were called states and nations. And as they grew, although they had tumultuous times and complicated wars, they generally delivered on a deep promise, which has been referenced by youth climate activists, that they took tacks and they controlled the army and the police, and in exchange, they protected the citizen. And I, you've heard me say it before, but the reason why we've got such a problem with climate change is because there has been malfunction of the nation state as a political unit. And not surprisingly, we've spent a lot of time on this podcast talking about corporations. We've spent a lot of time talking about institutional investors. And as you so rightly say, we can now look at cities as a critical, critical political unit. It's going to come up later. But it's such a great phrase that I can't help repeating it now. So people might remember it. The 19th century was the century of empires. The 20th century was the century of nation states, and the 21st century is the century of cities and mayors. And I think that the heart of it and I'm about to conclude with a sort of a summing up type statement, at the heart of it is that the city is a political unit of a comprehensible scale. The governance of the city, the way the city looks and feels its peoples and its spirit and its conduct is present. There's not a kind of north and a south that are 100 or 1000 kilometers apart. It's one place, one people, one set of principles, one accountability and one opportunity for us to take some action on climate change. That's why cities are critical.

Christiana: [00:07:09] Are you running for office, Paul, in some city?

Tom: [00:07:13] He's always running for office. He's just not sure which one.

Paul: [00:07:15] I'm available. I'm available to run for office. If you talk to my agent, it sounds a lot like me on the same phone number and email, but it's obviously different because they're my agent. But I'm available.

Tom: [00:07:25] Thank you, Paul. Very, very helpful. I appreciate that. Just to bring listeners into this, there's a few different trends that are converging that I think we should draw out. First, we're in the most decisive decade for climate change. We know that. We've talked about it for a long time. This is the decade in which we need to reduce. Largely at this time, people are also moving into cities and urban areas are becoming more dense. That leads to all kinds of social issues as well as opportunities. But as a result of these two trends, the urbanization is happening at this critical moment. Cities are the petri dish. They are the arena in which we have to work out, as you so rightly say, Christiana, how we're going to move forward because it's where most of the emissions come from. The reason it's such an opportunity is because of the focused nature of it. People tend to live closer together in cities. It throws up opportunities for heating homes in a different way, for transporting ourselves in a different way. It's actually easier to imagine the decarbonisation of cities because the population is dense, so therefore you can create different innovative solutions. That's why it's been such a focus of the climate movement through C40, of which Sadiq Khan, who will hear from later, is the chair and our good friend Mark Watts, who will appear on the podcast in a few weeks as the CEO, as well as other organizations like the Global Covenant of Mayors that Christiana used to chair with Mike Bloomberg. So you're not fooling anyone, Christiana You know a lot about cities. So I think it's worthwhile for listeners to educate themselves in why cities are such a fundamental source of the solutions. Because actually we're going to win or lose this battle in cities.

Christiana: [00:09:04] Yes, to all of the above. And at the risk of saying the obvious, what I think is so exciting about the potential of transforming cities is that it's so in-your-face in cities. The congestion of traffic, of completely inefficient traffic is so in your face, the pollution of the air, the absence of green spaces, the completely crazy lack of transport networks. The lack of insulation and here I'm sure Paul is going to go into 37 minutes of insulation.

Paul: [00:09:45] I've got it down to 20.

Christiana: [00:09:46] Ok, but it's also in your face. And, and that's what I think is so exciting that it's palpable. And the changes that can be made to electrification of vehicles, to better network of transports, to how buildings are either built or re-recast to be much more efficient. All of that, there's such gratification that I think is what I'm trying to say. There is immediate gratification in the quality of life of those who are living in cities. That's what I think is so exciting, and that's what I think the pull is going to be for the transformation of cities.

Paul: [00:10:37] And, you know, as we come to terms with cities, one thing I picked up, because actually the organization I work for has had the privilege to be working with cities for quite a while. In fact, because you, Tom, gave a speech to you a long time ago to some mayors and they said, can we report through CDP? And so it's the CDP Cities program is in part the result of the oratory, the great oratorical abilities of Tom Rivett-Carnac. Anyway.

Tom: [00:11:02] I think if I remember rightly, it was a one line email from you saying, Please do something about cities. And then I just did my best.

Paul: [00:11:07] Yeah, well, I've got some more emails, but I mean, look, here's a stop.

Christiana: [00:11:11] Paul, hold on, Paul. If you're going to use the term oratorical abilities, you can't just stutter through it. You have to say it quite eloquently.

Paul: [00:11:20] So you really enjoyed me having so much trouble, you want me to do it again? Yes. Well, with regard to your, I can say I've got no problem saying I'm just not sure if it's actually a word. So that's what I'm feeling awkward about.

Christiana: [00:11:31] Well, we can make it go away if we can make it a word.

Paul: [00:11:32] Dame Christiana. If we can make it a word, then I'm going to do it. To some degree, the work I've been doing in cities for ten years with many colleagues is based on your oratorical abilities, Tom Rivett-Carnac, but I just want you to know I got a little applause there, but one thing I wanted to point out is something that came out of our research is about; cities are about 70% of emissions, they are about 70% of GDP, but they're only controlling about 4% of those emissions. And I think this is key and this is where leadership comes in. And this is why I'm really looking forward to our interview with Sadiq Khan, because this is a new kind of politics and a new kind of leadership where maybe cities become more important to us. I was doing some research and I saw recently just a factoid is.

Christiana: [00:12:15] Paul, sorry, just to go into that. When you say they only control 4%, you mean their policies only control 4% and the rest is in the hands of the national government? Is that what you're saying?

Paul: [00:12:27] No, no, not quite. No, no. I mean and actually, it's not all cities, it's many, only control 4%. What I'm really referring to there is the direct emissions. So the councils, the city governments typically control a certain amount of the emissions themselves, but the degree to which they can influence, well, that could be up to 100%. Right. So I think we can be very excited about this emerging kind of political awareness that is represented by cities. But the last thing I would say is just just one example of a city government in action. The city of Dallas has opened an Office of Equity and Diversity within the city. You can have administrative improvements through city governments that perhaps duck some of the more poisonous or difficult political debates we're having. But rather than promoting insulation, I am going to make one final promotion. And that is I would like to draw our listeners attention to a free resource, which is on the website of my organization. It's called the CDP Open Data Portal, and you can actually explore climate change and sustainability data from 1200 cities and regional governments. So if anybody wants to pursue their own interest in cities, do go to the CDP Open Data Portal.

Tom: [00:13:37] Yeah, no thanks, Paul. That's such an important resource and I would really encourage people to look at that, because it really demonstrates what cities are doing and where you can see the impact. Should we now go to our interview and this is a fascinating conversation.

Paul: [00:13:49] To hear from an expert.

Tom: [00:13:50] To hear from an expert, and then we'll come back afterwards, a bit more analysis. But because Sadiq Khan is obviously so steeped in this, I think it would be useful to maybe hear from him now. Sadiq Khan has no doubt, listeners know is, of course, the mayor of London, a position he's held since 2016. He's now currently in his second term. He's also the chair of the C40 Cities Network. That's 100 world leading cities who are coming together to take urgent action to confront the climate crisis. Previously he was in government. He's a Labour politician. He was shadow minister for London, MP for Tooting. He's got an incredible background. He was born and brought up in London. His parents emigrated from Pakistan. He is a muslim senior political leader. He led the Labour Party campaign in the 2015 general election. He's a remarkable leader and I think he will find this interview fascinating. So let's go now to the conversation with Sadiq and we'll be back after this for some more discussion.

Christiana: [00:14:48] Mayor Khan, thank you so much for joining us on Outrage + Optimism. And I have to say to our listeners, I will be very transparent because I talk a lot about the wonders and the beauties of Costa Rica on this podcast.

Tom: [00:14:59] Boy, does she ever.

Christiana: [00:15:01] Yeah.

Paul: [00:15:02] All of us have to.

Sadiq Khan: [00:15:03] We hadn’t noticed that.

Paul: [00:15:06] Ah, you've been listening.

Christiana: [00:15:07] You've been listening. But I have to say, were Costa Rica not an option for me then definitely London. I lived there for two years, totally loved and still continue to love London. And you will not believe this. But my favorite part of London is the public transport system. So full appreciation and love for that. And I know that many Londoners do not appreciate the tube, but if you live in a country that doesn't have a tube, you would learn to appreciate it. So there you go. It's all relative. Now, Mayor Khan, you have been mayor since 2016. You're now in your second term. You have always, from the beginning, had climate change and its implications for a city as one of your top priorities. And we would love to know, what do you consider to be your most significant achievement or achievements, if you would like to say more than one?

Sadiq Khan: [00:16:04] Well, firstly, I've got to say it's a pleasure to be on Outrage + Optimism for me. There's a saying from an American politician, Tip O'Neill. He once said, All politics is local. For me me, all politics is personal. And I want to show you my journey to the issue of tackling climate change and reducing air pollution. In 2014, I ran the London Marathon for charity and I did a proper fitness test before. I’ve got no problems. A fine specimen of a human being, you could argue.

Christiana: [00:16:38] Indeed, indeed, indeed. We know that.

Sadiq Khan: [00:16:41] A few months after I did the marathon, decent time, I really enjoyed it. Few months after that, I started experiencing breathing issues. You know, I was coughing. I had issues in relation to what I was doing, exercise. And I went to the doctors and was diagnosed with adult onset asthma. What that basically means was that I've been healthy and fit because I was training across London for many, many weeks and I was breathing in the stuff you can't see. It's an invisible toxin, the nitrogen dioxide, the particulate matter. I became sick. And that started me thinking about if somebody like me who's a politician, who's knowledgeable, who's well read, doesn't understand what are the consequences of climate change, is toxic air and it can make you sick. What about other Londoners? And when I ran there, a big part of my platform was running to be a green mayor, albeit I'm a Labour candidate and I ran to be and I won in 2016. And then I realized, Christiana, that many Londoners, when you talk about the environmental crisis, climate change, think it's 20-30 years away or it affects sub-Saharan Africa or an island in the Pacific, it's not a now issue. So for the first year we spent turning an environmental issue into a health issue, how we got across London, more air quality monitors than any city in the world. And Mike Bloomberg was very generous in relation to contributing towards the cost of these. And now those air quality monitors meant in real time we could tell Londoners how good or bad the air was. And that was really important because a year later, Londoners gave me permission to take bold action to reduce the toxic air as one way to fight climate change. Let me tell you the great news in relation to achievements. We introduced the world's first Ultra Low Emission Zone in London, and that applies the polluter pays principle. What that basically means is if you've got a pollution vehicle, you've got to pay for coming into central London. And the great news is the number of compliant vehicles, in other words, not polluting went from 39% to 93%. The amount of toxic air in the centre of our city reduced by half, nitrogen dioxide down by 44%, particulate matter done by 27%. Carbon emissions down by 6%. So the number of premature deaths are going down. The number of children with stunted lungs is going down. The number of adults with health issues from asthma, dementia, heart disease, cancer, lung disease is going down. And so what I did going to the last election, you mentioned my second term, I said, listen, Londoners, if I win again, I want to extend this even more. And the good news is I secured the biggest vote of a city mayor ever, and in May will be consulting for all of London, all of London to be one big Ultra Low Emission Zone, four times the size of Paris.

Christiana: [00:19:40] Wow. Well, Mayor Con, what what a fantastic, compelling example of making climate change personal, making it about not just planetary health, but human health and how wonderful to hear that Londoners reacted so positively to that, because it is, as I'm sure you know, it is so frustrating for many politicians, but also many climate advocates and activists to really bring this issue to be something that people react personally to. It is about the here and now. It's not about there and then it's about here and now. And for them to understand that is so difficult and so frustrating. So what an inspirational example of how you've been able to do that. Was it easy or can you tell us where the difficulties were?

Sadiq Khan: [00:20:40] No it is a challenge, but it's not impossible. When you're a politician, there are two types of politicians. There are those who believe in followership and those who believe in leadership. And of course, some follow polls for other focus groups. And you can change public opinion and show leadership. And I think it's that dexterity, knowing when to follow, when to lead is really important. And you can't do it living in a democracy without taking people with you. And so the first stage has to be a politician, being a teacher and in a non patronizing way explaining to people why.

Christiana: [00:21:13] Educating.

Sadiq Khan: [00:21:16] Non patronizing way in simple, plain English people are dying, people are losing their lives, there's premature deaths. And I see this in the last couple of years we've seen in London talking about the now issue, flash flooding where many of our tube stations, businesses and homes have been flooded by surface water because we've concreted most of our city, we've seen in parts of London because of the heat waves in older people's homes, people dying prematurely because of the heat wave. So the issue about the climate change crisis isn't just an issue for the global south. We're now seeing it now in the north. And so it's saying to London, listen, the reason why businesses are flooded is because most of our city is concrete and these flash floods are because of lots of rain, we're getting a month's worth of rain in a few hours, which is unusual, is exceptional. But also our city is not resilient and adapting. That gives me risk to the conversation. And you've got to take people with you living in a democracy and we've got to make sure that this industrial revolution, this green revolution is one where we take people with us, unlike the previous one. So I'll give you another example we've got in London, a phenomenon we've seen across the globe, massive, massive energy prices, right. Bills going up. And Ukraine is exacerbating that. Actually, that's not an excuse to have a green pass to dig for more gas and more oil. But actually it's let’s accelerate the solar let’s accelerate the insulation that's the double glazing being installed. Let's accelerate onshore wind because that will bring the bills down. So we've got to have these conversations in a respectful way to then bring them with us.

Tom: [00:22:53] And I'd love to go one step deeper on that because what you just touched on is super interesting there and around all politics being local. At this moment around,

Christiana: [00:23:02] And personal.

Tom: [00:23:04] Exactly, yeah personal. At this moment around inflation, energy price rises, what we're seeing from politicians around the world, in the US and in the UK and elsewhere, is a retreat from the climate narrative. You know, Biden is largely not talking about it anymore. He's talking about the cost of energy coming down. We saw I mean, I know it's not. We saw Rees-Mogg give a big speech this week where he talked about the fact we need to abandon net zero. I know that's nothing new, but we're not hearing Boris talk as much about climate as he did before.

Sadiq Khan: [00:23:28] Tom, I can't believe you mentioned Joe Biden in the same sentence as Jacob Rees-Mogg. We should wash your mouth out.

Tom: [00:23:36] But it's indicative of a trend, right? Which is that they're grabbing onto this moment and saying this moment of increased price rises, of vulnerability, we should step back from climate and even those who want to go further, like Joe Biden and now not doubling down on the narrative. But you found this space where you're continuing to talk about climate as a political issue and you see it as a political winner for you, obviously, because otherwise, the week before an election, which is when we're recording this, although it'll come out afterwards, you wouldn't be able to continue to hold this narrative. So is what you've described and you've kind of given us a very clear sense of how you constructed that with making it local. Can that also be applied in other arenas at a national level in other places? How do we do that?

Sadiq Khan: [00:24:21] I think, I say in a respectful way, to paraphrase Never Waste a Crisis. And the two recent crises, one is the COVID pandemic and more recently, the invasion of Putin into Ukraine. Let me explain both in relation to an opportunity for us on this agenda. So what COVID did. It was awful, by the way. Lives lost. Livelihoods lost. Showed a number of things. What is working together? We can find an antidote, a virus solver in relation to the immunity to this virus in record time. Right. And by the way, you know, for those of your listeners listening to the podcast, you know, COVID pales in comparison to climate change to the impact on our planet. Yeah, you can be really successful working together, but here's the really exciting thing for us. London has really embraced walking and cycling. London has embraced and understanding the importance of green spaces. And so we have increased fivefold our cycle lanes using the opportunity of this awful pandemic to make it safer. Wider pavements. We’ve planted almost half a million trees. We have new to new woodlands. So we're using the opportunity of this awful pandemic where we started to appreciate green spaces to accelerate progress in the area, but hence we green becomes a potential game changer for the better, Tom. Look, it showed us the importance of energy security, right, in relation to the impact of Russia and mainland Europe because they're so reliant upon gas from Russia and oil. But also it shows the impact on inflation and energy prices if we're too reliant upon fossil fuels. So that should encourage those of us who are progressives to look at an opportunity. The opportunity is, let's insulate our homes to bring down our bills, right? Energy efficiency, and let's make sure we have double glazers rather than single glazers. Let’s think about heat pumps. Let's think about district heating. Let's move now towards renewables, solar and wind. And so we did some work separately from an independent company. What is the cost to London in terms of our energy bills, you know, the fuel in cars and vehicles they fuel heating our buildings, homes and businesses. In 2020, it's roughly 11 billion. And then we said what happened in 2030, if we had electric vehicles as the norm and if we had better insulation and we use in renewables? It comes down to 6 billion. So investing in infrastructure, investing in renewables has the twin benefit of bringing down our energy bills, bringing down the cost, but also saving the planet. I mean, not a bad win-win. 

Christiana: [00:27:06] And creating jobs for sure.

Sadiq Khan: [00:27:08] Oh, here's the exciting thing, Christiana. We create jobs in relation to who's going to make these electric vehicles. The buses, the taxis, the buses, who's going to install these charging points, who's going to make the heat pumps? Who's going to install the heat pumps? Who's going to install the district energy heating? Who's going to be installing the solar panels? Who's going to be putting up the onshore wind turbines? These are future proofed jobs. And you know what? We can be exporting this stuff to the Global South. We can lead by example. I think there's two things we've got to do in the global north. One is lead by example to show it can be done and to give a helping hand to the Global South who are least responsible and paying the biggest price. And this is an issue of social justice and racial justice.

Tom: [00:27:49] Yeah. And just one more question on that, that's specifically on the politics, because what you just laid out is so evident, right? That link between the change and the moment we're in, this is the minute to go big and we can create jobs and we can create growth in all sorts of ways. But we're not really capturing the political dividend of that. Right. We're still seeing a hesitancy on the part of some politicians, present company accepted, to go big on that and use this moment and capture the narrative. Why is the politics not followed that very clear narrative line that you just described?

Sadiq Khan: [00:28:17] Well, I think Christiana will talk more to this in a moment. But my analysis is this. You've got three groups of politicians when it comes to this. You are talking about if you look over the last 20 years, the climate change deniers, the climate change delays and the climate change doers. And that last category is where the cities and mayors are. The climate change delayers are the risk averse politicians, a bit nervous about the electorate, not willing to do the heavy yards of education. And there are the minority now of climate change deniers. And actually, Tom, I have the privilege of being chair of C40, 97 megacities from Delhi to Dhaka, from LA to Paris, Barcelona, Freetown, and other places around the world. We represent more than 700 million people responsible for more than a quarter of the global global GDP. We’re the doers, we get it, we're progressive. You go from Akra to Freetown, from north Dhaka to Barcelona, we are doing exciting stuff. The problem is this, we're not around the table when it comes to the UN. Yes, the UN Secretariat is now speaking warmly about the role of cities. But we need to be round the table, Tom, because at the moment we've got the solutions, we've got the ideas. But it's the national leaders who are around the table when it comes to previous cops.

Sadiq Khan: [00:29:45] And I hope not at the COP27. COP27 has got to be where mayors get around the table. There's a great saying, it's not mine, I'm afraid, which is if the 19th century was a century of empires, 20th century of nation states, the 21st century is cities and mayors. That's where the action is. And we can, we've got a target of net zero by 2030. Other cities have been really bold, really ambitious, not kicking the can down the road 2040 to 2045 when I won't be in a job. Right. That's an easy thing to do as a politician. Have actions now. So in the C40, to see our budget next year I've said more than two thirds must be spent in the global south. Now breathe London. We've got great air quality opponents in London and it's going to breathe global. We're going to make sure cities around the globe have the air quality monitors now in the coming year. And the final thing now is these green new deals, but it comes back to recovery with this pandemic. We've got one shot. We've got one shot to invest in electric buses, one shot to make sure we have renewables, one shot to have power purchase agreements, buying sustainable stuff, one shot to have supply chains, because these are long contracts that understand the importance of the green economy.

Paul: [00:30:54] So Mayor Khan, brilliant invocation of the power of the C40, and by the way, my day job is to work at CDP, where we've been in partnership with the C40 for 12 years. So a fantastic achievement.

Sadiq Khan: [00:31:05] And we love you for it.

Paul: [00:31:07] Well, mutual respect. But can I ask you actually, you talked about you said education, but not in a patronizing way. And I actually kind of think one of the biggest problems in the world is that the public haven't been told by their politicians how much trouble we're in or how serious these problems are. And there does seem to be a new kind of administrative excellence being demonstrated by the cities. It's a question I'm putting to you really as a politician with more than a million people voted for you specifically. Have we got a new kind of politics coming? A politics with a small p, a non-party politics. A politics of administrative excellence looking after the basic system conditions that our society depends on?

Sadiq Khan: [00:31:47] Spon on. One of the reasons why I gave up being a Member of Parliament, I had the pleasure of being in cabinet and shadow cabinet and ran to be mayor, is it’s less tribal Paul and I'm somebody who can be quite a pugilist. I'm tribal left of centre. But actually you've got to build coalitions. You're spot on. And when you're a mayor or running to run a city, you start having conversations with people you didn't in the past. Not just public, private. You know, I've got friends who represent the Green Party, represent the Liberal Democrats, representing the conservatives and they’re allies. And you've got to reach across the political divide because all of us share the same space here. And this coalition building is really, really important. And, you know, you can't work in silos, but just in terms of political parties, but in terms of regional government, local government, national government, the private sector, you know, bringing in green finance, really important. And one of the things you'll see as you make a you know this from your experience working with mayors is, we tend to be closer to people. We use public services. One of the reasons Christiana why the tubes and buses are great in London is I use them. We use them. Right. You know, you've got to be using the service to experience it and people see you using it and they give you that respect, which is why you get the big returns in relation to mayoral elections. But it's really important. That's one of the reasons why, Paul, I think mayors get it and they're doers because they're closer to their people and less tribal.

Paul: [00:33:10] I was going to say cheekily, I can't resist. I noticed that our previous mayor of London ended up going to number ten Downing Street, and things haven't worked out very well for him there.

Sadiq Khan: [00:33:19] Well, I was wondering, when we’d talk about the outrage, we've done the optimism.

Paul: [00:33:22] Plenty of outrage on that one.

Sadiq Khan: [00:33:26] Boris Johnson is a good reason why some mayors shouldn't go for the biggest job because they can be a disaster.

Paul: [00:33:39] But Mayor Khan, if you were to follow him to ten Downing Street, would you not be able to bring the parties together around the consensus the nation needs at this time to deal with this unbelievably serious problem, both at home and abroad?

Christiana: [00:33:56] Oh, yeah. That's not a loaded question whatsoever.

Sadiq Khan: [00:33:58] I think national governments are incredibly important. You know some of my best friends are national politicians across the globe, but I think mayors are where the action is, honestly Paul, where the excitement is, where the do is. Look, the world is becoming more urbanized in the next ten years. More than two thirds of the world's population is going to live in cities. We’re doers and the nature of our politics, both in the USA, you mentioned President Biden and the UK. Things are slow and clunky. We saw the presidential elections in France recently. Of course, thank God Macron won, but actually very slow to bring about change. And I think if we're going to tackle climate change, then to reduce air pollution, we're going to save our planet. Cities have got to be enabled to be the problem solvers. And honestly, I had the privilege of being an MP for 11 years and being a minister and so forth, and this is the best job in politics. We can do stuff as mayors. My frustration, though is Paul, is that national governments aren't giving us the powers and resources we need. And if we had the powers and resources, we could really solve some of this stuff. So my point is this to our prime minister, look, if you're worried about making the big choices because you think it's unpopular, give me the powers and resources and I'll do it. If local councils are nervous about active travel, about more walking, more cycling, give me the responsibility. Say you want me to do it and I'll do it. I'll take it on the chin because I can take people with us. And here's the great thing about cities is that cities are doers is in relation to our citizens as well. We tend to have a, making a generalization here, younger populations that are simply more diverse and better educated when it comes to graduates and so forth. And so they understand the connectivity in relation to, we don't live in silos. No city or no country is an island by itself. That's why we need multilateralism working together. That's why I think it’s a catastrophe us leaving the EU. But we are, we are. We've still got to work closely with our colleagues in Paris, in Rome, in Cologne, in Madrid, in Warsaw, in Berlin. Because by working together, we can collaborate on some of these big, big issues. I suspect, Paul, I've got better friendships with the mayors around the globe than our Prime Minister does with presidents and prime ministers around the globe.

Tom: [00:36:09] That's a low bar.

Christiana: [00:36:10] That’s not difficult. But Mayor Khan, I want to press you a little bit on that, because it is factual what you've just said, but it's very difficult to understand why. I remember when Mike Bloomberg was mayor in New York, he always used to say, well, the reason why we're closer to our citizens, our city residents, is because everybody knows where the mayor lives and they walk up and they knock on our door. And so we're much more directly accountable to our people than national government leaders. True, and I think you also put that argument out, and that is one of the reasons that cities are doers and national governments seem to fall into your third bucket of the delays. Why is it that they have such hesitancy to move into the space of progressive policy that you have described?

Sadiq Khan: [00:37:12] I think it's a fascinating question. There are a number of ways of winning elections. One way of winning elections is a politics of division. There is a problem and you play on people's fears in relation to how you deal with people's problems. And there's another way of winning elections, which is to bring people together, the politics of hope in relation to listen to concerns and then try and address them. You can't do the latter in soundbites. You got to actually take the time to listen to some of these concerns and say it's not simply a soundbite. 140 characters. There are complex reasons for this and here’s solutions. It can take some time and take people with them and treat them as adults and I think genuinely mayors across the globe, because I think Mike's right, by the way, they're closer to their citizens, but they do take the time to explain what these problems can be solved overnight. Some can, some can’t and they have the time to do that and develop those arguments. And often you'll see them win in second terms quite comfortably because people are happy in relation to the honesty and candor from the mayors as opposed to promising the earth when you're running to be prime minister or president and not delivering, which turns people who are apathetic into cynics, which is the worst thing you can do. But also, I genuinely think that there is something to be said about, you got to be careful because it can be corrupting one person with the buck stopping with him or her. That means that that person has a big responsibility to deliver. Because you fought an election on a manifesto, you won the election, you have a mandate and you got to deliver. You can be voted out. I mean, one of the things I say and it does annoy members of the Green Party is I'm the first Green Mayor London's ever had. Right. I'm a Labour politician, but I'm trying not to be tribal in relation to green policies and I'm often accused by friends who are green members of nicking green policies. Yeah. Unashamedly so. I'd rather seal something well, than invent it badly. I'm not embarrassed, one of the joys of being the incumbent and stuff. So and I speak to mayors all the time. You're willing to understand the limits of your power and just convene and bring people together. I realize the bully pulpit of City Hall is often more powerful than any levers I've got. I've met Tom recently at a really good event organised by Amazon. I had no power to convene these great business leaders and Tom was there. The innovation and energy, Tom, in that room was fantastic.

Tom: [00:39:39] Yeah, it was fantastic. 

Sadiq Khan: [00:39:40] That’s the office of mayor. And so we also work really closely with the private sector. People of my tribe, the labor tribe have been accused in the past, I think, unfairly of not being pro-business. Well, as mayor, as a labor mayor, I've got to be pro-business because I understand that's what creates the jobs and growth in our city. So I think some of it is we can be less tribal. I mean, Boris Johnson has become more tribal as prime minister. Actually, those who work with Boris Johnson in city hall will say, you know, it was actually in those days, a decent human being, is being said. Less tribal, social liberal. When Boris Johnson was the mayor of London, Boris Johnson had an idea to have an amnesty on undocumented migrants. Right. As mayor, Now he’s the prime minister, he wants to send everyone to Rwanda? I would argue yes, because he wants to throw red meat to his Tory backbenchers. Whereas Mayor, you know, the hinterland were citizens. So there is, you know, we can have conversations about how it works for Biden when it comes to Congress and Democrats and so forth. And so, you know, as mayor, as long as you don't allow to corrupt you, you have this freedom to really be your own person.

Paul: [00:40:54] So can I ask about that? I mean, it was extraordinary to hear you talk about division and hope. I think that's a fantastic way to describe, you know, the sort of achievements. I just don't know why I use that word. The impact of Donald Trump was achieved with division. And I think you and other politicians that we very much admire represent hope. Can I ask you the degree to which you think our social fabric issues of economic equity may be linked to climate change or indeed many other present social issues? How do you see the convergence of those?

Christiana: [00:41:31] And can I add to that list, race, please?

Sadiq Khan: [00:41:34] Of course, the last of the last ten years, we've seen the rise of nativist, populist movements across the globe. Nationalism. Look at Hungary, Poland, the great country of America for those four years. Even now, some of the toxicities they look at Brazil. There are other examples we can point to. Le Pen, again, go down the last two, got a lot closer in France than before. There are other examples we can point to, and that's because they're playing on people's fears, right? They're playing on the other and they're using some of the problems that climate change is causing, often as a way to motivate and incite people. What I mean, look, if you've got climate change and your home is being flooded, the islands being flooded, you've got a city where the temperature continues to go up. You speak to the mayor of North Dakota. People in coastal parts of Bangladesh are moving to Dhaka because it's on higher ground, causing all sorts of problems in Dhaka, obviously overcrowding and so forth. And you've got other examples around the globe, but that's another reason why you've got migration from the Global South because of the consequences of climate change. And that's why it's really important for us to understand, Paul, what climate change leads to, to understand why this is a problem for all of us. Because if you're somebody, and I don't believe I don't belong to this school of thought, somebody who's anti-immigration, you should be obsessed with tackling climate change. Why? Because the way to keep people there is for climate change to not be a problem there. And so that's why we've got to try and get the language, so we're addressing people's fears. If it's the case, your concern is, you know, the right jobs for people in the global north in the UK post-Brexit. Don't blame the immigrants. Actually, as Christiana has said, we can be creating futureproof jobs, making the heat pumps, making the electric vehicles and so forth. So we're creating futureproof jobs in the global north because we can't compete with the lower paid jobs in relation to some of the jobs that have been done in other parts of the world. And so these are opportunities for us and we shouldn't be scared of this. And I want the Global North to lead by example, but to realise that the problems the Global South have our problems as well. So it's not just the islands in the Pacific, it's not just sub-Saharan Africa, it's not just South Asia, it's not just Australia, it's all of us. And it's really important, Paul, to not play on people's fears, but address them. But you can't do that in 140 characters. You can't do that with the soundbite media that we have. It takes a lot of conversation. And, you know, mayors have those conversations. We've got the time to do so, but we've got to take people with us. I think everybody is ripe for that conversation. I don't write anybody off. But, you know, we are seeing, I'm afraid, the resurgence of Trump. We are seeing the resurgence of the far right in France. We are seeing in parts of our country the resurgence of the far right. And we should be going to address the concerns that they feed into. You vote for the racist, right. And Christiana mentioned race, this issue of racial injustice and social injustice, who do we think in London is breathing the toxic air? It’s poor Londoners, least likely to own a car, it's black Londoners least responsible for the toxic air. Similarly, the Global South was suffering the most consequences are the least responsible. They didn't have coal burning power stations. They didn't have, they weren't using the gas. They didn't benefit from the industrialisation. We did.

Paul: [00:45:09] You mentioned the great nation of the United States of America, the USA, and they had their Congress stormed on the 6th of January. I fear we're on the edge of something here.

Sadiq Khan: [00:45:18] Well, Paul, all those it stalled. But look at what happened. A number of things happened. Firstly, listen, the right guy won in the presidential elections, the Supreme Court and the courts in America. I mean, the checks and balances worked. I appreciate it could be argued you've got to the cusp, but the checks and balances weren't, you know, the executive, the legislature, you know, holding the judiciary, holding to account those responsible. And so, you know, I'm an optimist by nature. And, you know, we should be outraged that it got so close. I think it's a good thing. Le Pen got beaten in the ballot box, actually. Right. Macron beat her. And so she can't have any quibbles and stuff. We've got to deal with the fake news. We got to deal with misinformation. We've got to regulate social media. There's too much. You know, Paul, when I've got Nobel laureate scientists and doctors creating a vaccine that fights COVID and I've got people watching something on Facebook or YouTube and not taking the vaccine because it's fake news, it's both heartbreaking, but it's also leading to people losing their lives. You should give equivalence in a sense by saying balance to people who are clearly, you know, spreading fake news. And the same, by the way, occurs with climate change. Christiana had these arduous debates in advance of the COP in Paris where people were denying climate change. You know, we heard what Trump said. Politicians in the Cabinet in the U.K. just five years ago were denying climate change. All right. But we've given equivalence to some of their ludicrous nonsense with Nobel winning scientists and people who listen to the radio or watch TV believe some of that stuff. And that's why we've got to take this on and sometimes don't give them the oxygen of publicity when it's clearly fake news.

Christiana: [00:47:07] So that brings us sadly to our last question that we always ask our guest, Mayor Khan, which is as you look at the prospects for addressing climate change in a timely way globally, pushing you now beyond city limits globally, what are you most outraged about and what are you most optimistic about?

Sadiq Khan: [00:47:29] I’m most outraged by the status quo that the current generation of world leaders who were in COP 26 don't forget, you know, progress was made, but not as much as we could have made. But thankfully in a parallel universe, it wouldn't be President Biden there to be President Trump, who didn't, of course, walked away from Paris. There's some sort of optimism there, but I'm outraged at the lack of ambition in relation to what they achieved. But I'm optimistic about COP 27. I'm optimistic about the next generation. I'm optimistic about the NGOs. What's missing about the voluntary community sector? I'm optimistic about cities and mayors. I'm optimistic about the innovation from the private sector. I'm optimistic about the examples we can point to, of can do, look at Accra’s waste management. Look at Freetown’s tree planting. Look at North Dhaka cleaning the water in an environmentally friendly way. Look at Barcelona's progress in relation to encouraging people to get out of their cars. Look at the work done in Paris in relation to taking up road space with walking and cycling. Look at the work we've done in London. Other examples we can point to the work we did with New York in relation to divesting away from pensions, from fossil fuels. And so I'm really, really excited. And this is the other thing. And Christiana, you're involved in this, is the Earthshot project. I mean, you know, Prince William, it’s this really exciting, really ambitious thing. Can we replicate what JFK did with the Moonshot project? And, you know, some of those ideas, Christiana, were just amazing. That was so, so exciting. If we can scale them up and we'll see this year who wins in relation to some of the other criteria? We have other categories that are going to stuff, but I think the innovation is what's exciting. And you know what? People don't giving it up. People aren't giving it up. People are still looking for ideas. People are still going forward. We've got to be optimistic to be we've got to be upbeat. We've got to be changemakers. We've got to be the people that fill people with optimism. And if they're outraged, that outrage should be used to power in a sustainable way how we tackle climate change.

Christiana: [00:49:35] Wow. Mayor Khan, thank you so much. Thank you for joining us here and thank you for being such a compelling torch of light on this path forward. We really appreciate your sincerity, your honesty, your passion, your commitment. Few and far between among politicians, sadly right now, but all the more bright your light. Thank you so much.

Sadiq Khan: [00:50:02] Thank you, stay safe. Nice seeing you, Tom. Nice seeing you, Paul. Thank you.

Tom: [00:50:12] Great. So what a privilege to get a chance to sit down and speak with Sadiq. What an inspirational political leader. How great to have that conversation. What did you both leave that discussion with?

Paul: [00:50:22] I think the key takeaway for me was Sadiq advocating for education, deep listening, multisector, multi-party collaborations, engagement, and this kind of commitment to sort of comprehensively understand the challenges and opportunities in different regions and sort of thereby making sure solutions are viable and well integrated. I just think he's the sort of ultimate holistic politician or leader. I don't even think of him as a politician. I think of him as a civic leader, which is perhaps an undiscovered but nascent new skill in the world. Big fan.

Christiana: [00:50:57] Yeah, big fan. Me too. How wonderful to hear that passion, that eloquence and that courage, right, to go out there and educate. I mean, he realizes that he has a vision for London, but he will not be able to implement it unless he has a large majority of London citizens, London dwellers with him. So to take the time to go out there, to educate, to bring people with him is absolutely the way to go. What a delight. What a delight to have leaders like him. Now, here's one of my favorite stories since Paul told us a story. I'm going to tell you another story. Once upon a time, in central London in 1858, we had something that was called the great stink. And the great stink of London was that hot weather got exacerbated by the smell of, sorry about this listeners, of untreated human waste and industrial effluent that was being thrown into the River Thames and it got so bad that actually many of the public meetings in parliament, for example, had to be moved away from London until the stink subsided. Now, the great stink was because of the pollution of the river. Why are we not as intolerant about the pollution of noise that we have not only in London but in every other city? The noise pollution from these fossil fuel cars is just horrifying. You try to sleep in London. Paul you have many stories about how it's completely impossible to sleep in on it. And why are we not equally intolerant about the air pollution, which Sadiq has talked about? So the pollution, the great pollution years of cities can actually be a thing of the past, very much like the great stink is now a thing of the past. So London did bring its engineers in and solved the disgusting River Thames, that is now such a delight in the city. And we have to be able to get rid of both noise pollution and air pollution, both of which are caused by the burning of fossil fuels. Goodbye fossil fuels.

Tom: [00:53:35] It's such a great point, Christiana, and I think it's a great point both on the stick but also the carrot, because I don't know about you, but it can be quite hard to get people to engage emotionally with the future that we're trying to create when you talk to them about it. But the place that everybody lights up is the idea of green regenerative cities that are walkable, that have clean air, that are glorious places to live. And there's an emotional and human connection to the fact that we want that future actually, and we can begin to glimpse it now in places like London with the ultra low emission zone and all the parks and all the trees. You know, London at this time of year is glorious, and it's becoming the city that it always could be, thanks in very large part to Sadiq’s leadership. I completely agree with that. I think it's very important both for the outcome but also for the story we can tell and the vision we can paint of the future. And I mean what a great leader Sadiq Khan is. And I took so many things from that interview. But one thing is that we have all the ingredients right now to make this transition. And when you get a political leader that comes in and is prepared to cultivate that middle ground, when you combine it with rising energy prices, pollution that is harming children, a warming planet, all these other different issues, that is the ground of an incredibly powerful political message. But you've got to combine it with leadership where someone is prepared to actually explain that vision and bring people with them. And when you can, the evidence is that actually that is what then accelerates us further forward. So great, we've got Sadiq. We probably need another 50,000 like him around the world in national and city office. And it's not just him. There are others, of course, there as well. But that's the big piece we now need to make progress on. So run for office listeners and Paul.

Paul: [00:55:24] There is another reason and that is that the, yeah available still at the end of the show as well as at the start. The key point I wanted to make was, I wanted to quote Schumacher if it’s Schumacher, who famously said that one of the problems we face as a society is that a lot of our major decisions are made in cities. And actually, you know, the preconditions of economic life take place in the countryside, in agriculture and around the world. So in a certain sense, we need to increase our understanding, our sense of environmental system conditions in cities, particularly to help educate people to live in those cities and make better decisions about Spaceship Earth, which we know is very finite. And I just want to call out to another leader, a former mayor, Mike Bloomberg, who has funded so much work on cities, not least at CDP, where I work, and in many other organisations. And I think that the key point about that philanthropy is that it's been able to be quite catalytic in terms of making changes to cities, but it's the kind of change that can build change because cities are there and they just needed some. Well, as you said, Tom, leadership from leading figures to to sort of help body for the change because once the cities get the habit and I think this is what Sadiq proved when when cities get the habit and the passion and the energy for sustainability, it builds itself, it snowballs. And that's very exciting.

Christiana: [00:56:54] And just to make the connection here with national governments, the fact that there are so many voters who are concentrated in cities, once those voters get educated, the way that Sadiq Khan is educating London voters, they then actually wake up to the possibility of a much better London and are willing to work with with the mayor for that. But also, they are the same voters that vote in national elections. So it is a huge service that is being done by mayors, by city, by other mayors who are educating a large part of the national populations. Because in most cities, urban populations are the vast majority and hence democratically run countries are basically in the hands of city dwellers. So if mayors actually come and educate the city dwellers to the new possibilities and get them excited about not just getting rid of the great stink, but the great pollution as well, which is our task in the 21st century. Then those voters are actually already very likely to be consistent in their voting at national level elections.

Tom: [00:58:16] Yeah, that's a great point, Christiana. And I would add to that and say, you know, the US example is quite interesting about where that can also become a tension. If you look at the US, the majority of state governors are Republican and the majority of city mayors are Democrats. You actually end up with this bifurcation.

Christiana: [00:58:32] How do we explain that?

Tom: [00:58:34] Well, because rural voters are Republican and city voters are Democrats. Right. So you actually, it's quite an interesting divide, which is problematic for other reasons. But we really don't have time to go into that now.

Paul: [00:58:44] Well, I mean, just you know, it's a bit Panglossian. It's a bit of a dream. But can we just, like, dissolve that divide a little bit and think less about our parties and more about our principles, more about our shared space? And, you know, I think that the polarization of social media and all the rest of it, we've all got very excited about that. But we can cool down back to the basic principles because we can all agree we need to have clean air, clean water and a stable ecosystem that can support us and our children. That's not party political. So let's remember that.

Tom: [00:59:17] Now, unless either of you have anything else to add, I think we can go to our music and we have a very exciting opportunity here for listeners, and that is for attentive listeners who have been listening to close credits. You will have heard him talk about the Music Prize over the last few weeks, and you now get to hear him say that during the podcast itself. So, Clay, over to you.

Clay: [00:59:36] Well, thank you for inviting me on.

Paul: [00:59:40] Before you come on, before you air.

Christiana: [00:59:43] Special invitation today, Clay. Very special invitation.

Clay: [00:59:47] Thank you. Thank you.

Tom: [00:59:48] Don't miss Clay's credits, by the way. They're one of the highlights of the podcast.

Paul: [00:59:51] Here this again in a minute.

Clay: [00:59:52] That's so kind. Thank you. Yeah. So OK. A few episodes back, Christiana and I had the privilege of speaking with the creator of the Environmental Music Prize, Edwina Floch. And in that episode we played for our listeners a few of the songs that made it into the finals. And today we have another sample of a song to play for you that is a finalist for the prize. But I just want to point out this song is only one of 20 that are waiting to be listened to and voted on. And we're entering the last week to vote. So voting ends on the 21st of May, and the way you can vote for your favourite songs is at Environmental Music Prize Dotcom and make sure you listen and vote for three of your favorite songs that you think should win the prize, which is 20,000 AUD. Not bad. Now I have a recommendation for you. On the Environmental Music Prize website. They have made both a Spotify and an Apple Music playlist with all of the songs in the finals. So my recommendation is add the playlist to your listening rotation this weekend, Spotify or Apple Music. Make a note of your favorite songs when you hear them as you're listening and then go vote as soon as you finish the playlist. Have a little voting party with your friends or your partner or your family. It's a little weekend fun just waiting for you.

Tom: [01:01:19] When you said I have a recommendation for you here, I thought you were going to tell them how to vote. So I was disappointed that it was just an operational recommendation.

Clay: [01:01:26] I don't think, as an impact partner with the Environmental Music Prize that we can tell everyone to vote for one song. We recuse ourselves. We like them all. So get out there and go vote.

Tom: [01:01:43] Thanks, everybody.

Christiana: [01:01:47] Thanks, everyone. Bye.

Hello My Beautiful World by Holy Holy: [01:01:53] [Song plays]

Clay: [01:02:40] So there you go. Another episode of Outrage and Optimism. I'm Clay, producer of this podcast, and that was Environmental Music Prize finalist Holy Holy with a small sample of their song. Hello My Beautiful World. I know that left you wanting more so you can go listen to the full song and vote for your favorites to win the Environmental Music Prize at Environmental Music Prize Dotcom. Again, voting ends just around the corner, so make sure your vote gets counted. This week's guest was none other than Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan. Everybody already said this, but mayors are cool and they get things done and Mayor Khan is no exception. That group of cities, he's the chair of C40 cities. You can check out what they're getting done together online. Again, check the show notes for links to their socials and website. And also, you don't have to be a Londoner to follow Sadiq on Twitter or Instagram like myself. He was really funny, by the way, like he was cracking us up before and after the interview. It's great to meet him. Thank you, Mayor Khan, for coming on the podcast. Short credits this week, which is nice because it's amazing whether this week and weekend where I am here in Detroit. So I'm looking forward to getting off the mic and going outside for a bit. And I was thinking about Londoners as we are putting together this episode and I checked the weather for London and you all have some great weather this weekend, partly cloudy with highs of 21 and 22 Celsius. Yes, I did the conversion. So get outside, go enjoy it. And I know a lot of you listen to our podcast outside, which makes us very happy. So go enjoy it. And somehow I've turned into the weatherman for the Greater London area, so I should probably finish up here. If you love this podcast, please leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Our hosts read every single review, so you're not just typing into a digital abyss. We'd also love to have you join us online @OutrageOptimism on Twitter, Instagram and the like. Links again in the show notes to those. Enjoy your weekend. Enjoy next week. Enjoy the music. And next week, of course, another episode coming your way right where you are now. See you then.


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