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195: A Better Future Emerging

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About this episode

With Tom away this week, tune in to hear Christiana Figueres and Paul Dickinson discuss announcements from the World Bank, the spring G7 meeting in Japan and Paul’s mini scoop into the issue of UK internal flights, as well as their fantastic interview with celebrated author  Jon Alexander and his widely acclaimed book: “Citizens: Why the Key to Fixing Everything is All of Us”

We are also excited to share details of how you can join Christiana Figueres, Tom Rivett-Carnac, Fiona McRaith and Paul Dickinson for a live online Q&A recording of Outrage + Optimism on Wednesday 19, 2023 @ 4.30pm BST / 11.30am EST. During this live Q&A session we will be taking questions resulting from Tom and Fiona’s mini series: Momentum vs Perfection. Please follow this link to register your place.

We will be taking a short break next week so please take time to revisit the mini-series here and we look forward to seeing as many of you as possible on Wednesday 19 April! 

Enjoy the episode! 


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Register to join us for our live online Q&A episode of Outrage + Optimism and put your question to our hosts, please click on this link and follow the instructions. 

Rachel Kyte article mentioned by Christiana here

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Full Transcript

Paul: [00:00:12] Hello and welcome to Outrage and Optimism. I'm Paul Dickinson.

Christiana: [00:00:16] And I'm Christiana Figueres.

Paul: [00:00:18] And while Tom takes a well-earned break, Christiana and I invite you to join us for a live interactive recording of the podcast in April. We're going to take a look at the recent climate policy announcements in the UK and also worldwide. And we're also going to speak with Jon Alexander, the celebrated author of the book Citizens. And we have music straight out of Nashville from Banditos. Thanks for joining us. So listeners, as you might remember from last week's episode, we spoke about how great it would be to actually host a live recording of the podcast following the overwhelming response we received after we aired Tom's mini series, Momentum Versus Perfection. So we are very excited to announce that this is going to happen. There's going to be an Outrage and Optimism live event, and it's going to be taking place on Wednesday the 19th of April at 4:30pm UK time or British Summer Time, at 11:30am Eastern Time. 4:30pm British Summer Time, 11:30am Eastern Time on Wednesday the 19th of April. Please join Christiana, Tom, Fiona from Tom's podcast and myself to take part in a lively discussion of some of the things that came up from Tom's Momentum versus Perfection mini series. We'd love to hear your questions and all details are in the show notes, but here is Clay to briefly let you know how to register for free for our live recording and how to let us know your advance questions.

Clay: [00:01:47] Thanks Paul. So, listeners, it's very simple. Just go to the show notes right below this episode. There's a link there to go straight to our website where you can register for the event and save your spot. Once you save your spot, you'll get an email that will have a link to a voicemail inbox. And if you have a question for our hosts that you want to ask during the live recording, you can go and record that question right there. It's like this online recording software. It's pretty cool. Anyway, we're really looking forward to hearing your questions, so I just wanted to mention it. That's how you do it. Link in the show notes, register, record your question. There you go.

Paul: [00:02:25] Thank you. Thank you. And it's over to you, Christiana.

Christiana: [00:02:28] So listeners do register. We are very excited and really looking forward to hearing all your questions, your comments. This promises to be a not all all together, coherent or concise discussion, but rather all the contrary. So very exciting to go into into some of the perspectives and experiences of all of you with respect to that challenge between or let's say the gamut, the gamut between momentum and perfection. Everyone has experienced it in one way or another, and we are excited to hear about your experience from from that. And we also wanted to let you know that next week, the week after Easter, for those who celebrate that holiday, we are going to be taking a brief break in part because of us, but also because we want to give you some time to listen to Tom's mini series, which is a two part mini series, by the way, not short, each of them longer than Christiana would like, but this gives you some chance to relisten or listen for the first time to those two episodes and get ready for the live recording. Having previously registered that you're going to join us on Wednesday the 19th. So we look forward to that.

Paul: [00:03:59] Thank you, Christiana. Thank you. And all of us are hoping as many of you as possible can join us on the day. Now, before Jon Alexander joins us today, I wanted to hear, Christiana, what's on your mind? And I think before just now, you mentioned something about the World Bank that had caught your attention.

Christiana: [00:04:17] Yeah, the World Bank. So listeners may remember that we had a very hard time with the lack of leadership of the previous president of the World Bank, David Malpass. And for all intents and purposes, David Malpass has now been replaced by the former MasterCard CEO Ajay Banga. Now, he will be formally given the job next week at the spring meeting of the World Bank, but he is the only candidate. So luckily for us, I should say, because he is.

Paul: [00:04:58] That always helps when you're trying to get a job, I think.

Christiana: [00:05:00] Yeah, yeah, that's very helpful. But luckily, I think for the world he will he will definitely step into this very, very difficult moment at the World Bank. This is not just the spring meetings of any year at the World Bank. These spring meetings that start next week are a critical, critical moment for the World Bank. A couple of things coming up. Rumour has it that the World Bank has already decided that it's going to lower its equity to loan ratio by one percentage point from 20 to 19%. What that actually means is that they would free up $4 billion a year and that they would invest that into climate spending. And that sounds pretty good, but there are many who think that is absolutely the starting point, but definitely not the final steps that the World Bank has to take with respect to allowing or with respect to making more funding available to developing countries. Many of them are calling, instead of one percentage point to go down to three or maybe even five percentage points, which gives much more additional fining. Now, in addition to that, we have, as we already discussed on this on on this podcast several weeks ago, we have what is called the Bridgetown Agenda that is going to be presented formally by Prime Minister Mia Mottley of Barbados. We had an in-depth discussion about that, but that really has at its heart a complete revamping of of what the World Bank might do with respect to developing countries.

Christiana: [00:06:52] And it is not only Prime Minister Mottley that is calling for serious reform. The very renowned economists Nicholas Stern and Vera Songwe have actually written a report calling for a rapid, sustained investment push that prioritizes, of course, the transition to cleaner energy and achieving the UN sustainable goals. Let's remember that those are also due by by 2030. And on top of that, we know that African ministers of finance are soon going to come up with their own to do list for the World Bank. And India's Ministry of Finance is pulling together an expert group to consider World Bank reform. So not not an easy moment for Ajay Banga to take over leadership of the bank, but perhaps a fantastic moment, one that is pregnant with possibilities because the outside world is looking at the bank and saying, no way, you cannot continue business as usual. And that opens political space for Ajay Banga to come in and do reforms, which he would have to do, of course, with the approval of the Board of Directors. Now, finally, I should say, when in doubt about what is happening about the World Bank, turn to our good friend Rachel Kyte, who we've also had on this podcast.

Christiana: [00:08:21] Rachel has written an excellent article that we will also put in the show notes for you because as one who has worked both inside the bank and with the bank from the from the outside, she puts out a very interesting list of the big picture tasks that Banga has in front of him. And she says she characterizes it like this. She says, first of all, be a true CEO that brings together a disjointed conglomerate of different institutions under the World Bank Group, then stand up as a collaborator with other regional development banks because the World Bank can't do all of this on its own. It needs to collaborate with the regional development banks. Thirdly, convene the entire financial sector, which Banga might be able to do, especially because he would do it in consonance with Kristalina Georgieva, who heads up the IMF and who, frankly, had a very hard time with David Malpass, but we suspect is much more aligned with Banga. And finally, and perhaps most importantly, Rachel says Banga has to champion the vulnerable. Let's remember, the purpose of the World Bank, actually is to address poverty, i.e. he has to be the champion of the vulnerable. So quite an agenda for for Banga, but a very, very exciting and not easy moment for the World Bank Group.

Paul: [00:10:02] Hmm. Well, I mean, Rachel Kyte, who's been on the podcast a few times before, not only does she have a brain the size of a planet, but she also was Vice President of the World Bank. So she knows what she's talking about and how exciting to have that agenda open. Bridgetown Agenda, Mia Mottley's leadership, Avi who spoke eloquently on the podcast I think just a month or two ago about the potential for the Bridgetown Agenda to redesign everything. So that is very exciting Christiana.

Christiana: [00:10:26] Now Paul, you probably want to speak about something UK related and then I'm going to have to jump in with another international topic that has to do with Japan's presidency of the G7. But first over to the UK. 

Paul: [00:10:40] Yeah and it's true. I'm going to tell you, tell listeners something about the UK, but not because it's the UK. I'm trying to draw out a bigger principle here because, you know, an awful lot comes across our desks and it's conflicting and it's a bit difficult. I particularly noticed that the BBC commented that the UK government has unveiled a new net zero plan, but it's been met with criticisms from environmental groups and this was in response to the High Court ruling that the Government's existing plans were not sufficient to meet its targets. So rather than try and take on this big issue, I'm going I'm going to zero in on a little issue. I've been doing a tiny bit of investigative journalism. I've put on my kind of raincoat and I've gone out there and I've and I've beat the streets and here's where I've got to. This stuff is complex, but I'm going to pick up on one regulatory change that came in on the 1st of April this year. So it came in four days ago as we are recording, and it is a measure to reduce, yeah, you heard me. It, we're reducing the tax for passengers on UK domestic flights and. Why would you do that?

Christiana: [00:11:45] Domestic flights, what happened with the trains? Are you talking about flights? 

Paul: [00:11:48] Do you know what, you know, my grandpa wrote a book called Electric Trains. Trains are brilliant. Everybody loves trains. There's nothing wrong with trains. And really smart countries like France, for example, are banning flights less than a certain level. The UK has reduced passenger duty on flights, and The Guardian did some great work actually, it's not my journalism, it's theirs. But they got a freedom, actually an NGO they were working with, openDemocracy, got a Freedom of Information request, and found out that airlines lobbied for a cut to the duty in the UK despite the carbon emissions. The airline, Ryanair, said in its submission March 21, that it would be able to offer more domestic flights at low prices and has introduced more more flights since then, including one from London to Stansted, which is like not very far, from Stansted to Cornwall I should say. Also, this article said the airlines rejected a frequent flyer tax. I don't know how airlines get to reject laws that are coming in. Easyjet, big airline, said in its submission to the government. Our analysis shows that if the APD is reduced 50%, this would support an overall 31% increase in domestic volumes of flights to 10.6 million passengers. And British Airways owner, the International Airlines Group told the UK Treasury, positive outcomes could include new routes, increased frequency and larger aircraft on existing routes, as well as lower fares. Now, this is just crazy. This is just crazy. The government I looked up the government website and they said the total net impact on emissions of the reforms because they are increasing the charge for longer flights, they said is forecast by 2026 to 27, estimated to be negligible. And I actually called up a civil servant and because they had a number on a website, it was very sweet. And she was so frightened to talk to me like, I think, you know, I can't read into it. But she was like directed me to the media department. I think everyone knows that this isn't right.

Christiana: [00:13:42] Paul, you are a true menace. When you pick up the phone to a public servant or a representative of a company. I've been there. I've heard how you speak to these people. It's actually quite intimidating.

Paul: [00:13:55] Well, I had a friend who said.

Christiana: [00:13:57] Please don't ever call me like that.

Paul: [00:13:59] The bravest person in the world on the phone I've been described as. But to be honest, I don't want to be like a horrible customer or something like that. And I'm never actually cross with the individual. I'm cross with the integrity of organisations that should have high integrity dragging their their poor employees into this mess. But look, I mean, are we going to reduce tax on cigarettes? Are we going to, you know, that would just sound incredibly crazy. We can't, you Christiana, you've put it so beautifully when I was talking about the sort of plans of Aramco, maybe. We can't increase emissions. We have to have a principle that we can't do anything to increase emissions. And the point I want to make, the point I want to make is we're not going to make it if we keep doing this to each other, we have to recognize that it's like racism or something. It's an absolute. You can't have like some racism is okay and then other racism is bad. We've got an absolute principle here. We're not going to cause any actions any more that increase emissions. So that's my little postage stamp story. Everyday low price is like a boot being smashed into a human face for eternity. To use George Orwell's peculiar phrase in an unusual context, we have to try and ensure that we as a people in all nations never do anything that causes emissions to increase. That should just be a simple law and we can all follow it. And end of speech. Now, Christiana, to go to the other side of the world, quite literally. I believe you had an observation about Japan.

Christiana: [00:15:30] Yeah, but I first just want to say, Paul, that you are so right about this, you know, adopting a principle of behaviour, principle of policy that while it's bad enough that we don't have policies that are radically reducing our emissions, there is no way that we can accept any policy that actually allows for the increase of emissions. I mean, are we completely bananas? It is, you know, this this is what I would call and actually, I think Japan is also a case for this. the battle for the future. And and we're seeing so many proof points of this battle where the policies or the decisions or the investments that kept the past afloat and thriving are trying to keep their space in the present in order to, frankly, thwart our future. We also see thank heavens, that's the outrage part of our of our podcast always and of our view in the world. But we also see on the on the positive side, we also see, fortunately, proof points of a better future emerging. And we're always caught here in the middle, right? We're always caught. And and it's so difficult to to steer through all of this that evidences itself as a very, very messy transition. Point in case, your point in case. Thank you, Paul. About taxes on domestic flights in the UK. Point in case Japan, the presidency of the G7 goes to Japan this year and ministers will meet. And in fact, a few days after the World Bank meetings. Now the presidency of these international meetings always carries a let's call it a political baton for what they want to put on the table and grab on to your seats.

Christiana: [00:17:46] But the Japanese government wants to put on or has already put on the table what they call their green transformation or GX strategy, which is a set of measures for 22 sectors after 2030 to increase hydrogen production, which as we know, if it's produced with green sources, with renewable energy, is actually a pretty good thing. But in this case, they want to use brown coal, which is the absolute worst kind of coal to produce hydrogen. And then because they know that that is highly polluting, then they seek to clean it up after they have dirtied it and slap on carbon capture and storage technologies. Absolutely crazy first to produce a highly polluting, highly polluting fuel and then expect CCS technologies to take out the pollution from the fuel. Why don't we just produce hydrogen cleanly, which is the only rational way to go. Of course, the high cost of CCS still could kill this in the end, but it is just lunacy to even propose this. Germany, France and the UK have already pushed back against that. But you know, it's very interesting. The US hasn't publicly come out in a pushback because the US needs Japan to be its political ally in a, let's call it, China containment strategy. And so here we are. What is currently more urgent the international security issues or the climate issues, as though there were a difference between the two.

Christiana: [00:19:47] And Paul, you have made this abundantly clear that climate is an international security issue, but these people think that they have to choose between the two. Now, in the face of this, please count on the amazing Mary Robinson, who I call Mama Mary, who traveled to Japan and read them the riot act. I mean, she is just so absolutely fantastic. And we will have her on the podcast in just a few weeks. Maybe we'll also ask her about this, but she's actually coming on to talk about the Dandelion Project that she is launching together with 100, together with several other women. Now, the as I said at the very beginning, there's always proof points of of outrage, but there are also some proof points of of light and of hope and optimism. And here they are. About 200 of Japan's CEOs have decided that this is absolutely crazy. And not only that, it would not support the 1.5°C ceiling that we're all wanting to work toward, but rather, here is the real winner. The CEOs say that it would undermine competitiveness because the CEOs who are grounded in the real economy rather than in political nightmares, in the real economy, they know that demand is growing for low carbon or no carbon services and products. So very interesting how this battle for the future is playing out under the baton of Japan and under the G7, but has permeated also the industrial force of Japan.

Paul: [00:21:49] Christiana, have a great summary of some complicated politics. The the Japan US one I think is very interesting. But looking, stepping back a bit, wise people have convinced me that rather than the cajoling of one country to another, we could well quite soon see competition for regulation and the regulatory environments and governments competing for investment by having the most advanced economy because they've got the best policies to decarbonize. So whilst I think you've made a really good description of the blockage and salute Mary Robinson for going into to break that blockage, I also think we can hope and wish to see the other side of that where, you know, climate change like the Internet or something becomes about the the rapid deployment of a response being the thing that guides a society rather than the controlling, which is natural at this point, but is probably not the long term story. Is that fair?

Christiana: [00:22:49] That's fair.

Paul: [00:22:51] Now, on this one, ultimately it's about society coming together, I think. And maybe that's not a bad time to segue to our guests this week, Jon Alexander, because he is perhaps best known for writing the book Citizens, which is an extremely brilliant way of describing. Well, let's leave it to him actually to describe it. Now, Jon's history is is originally in the advertising industry. He spent ten years at top advertising agencies because he felt inspired to support actually a response to 9/11. After the fall of the Twin Towers, governments literally said we've got to get our economies going by spending. The US government sent checks to people and Jon felt he was kind of supporting the national and global interests by advancing commerce. But after ten years he had an epiphany. He spent some time working at the National Trust, doing very interesting work on making a farm open to the public to decide how the farm should operate. But then he's founded The New Citizenship Project and written a book about how it will take all of us to fix everything. And so let's go over to Jon Alexander, who's a sweetie and someone I've known for a while. Jon Alexander, what a joy to have you here on Outrage and Optimism. I've been listening to you on a lot of podcasts recently, also as preparation for this interview. And you have three master's degrees and one of them we did together, although a few years apart, the Responsibility and Business Practice MSc set up by Anita Roddick. But I'm guessing you didn't meet her when you were on the course because I think she'd exited by that time. Load More
Jon: [00:24:26] Yeah, I was, I didn't have that pleasure. I did have the joys of Peter Reason and 1 or 2 others and of your good self, I think Mr Dickinson.

Paul: [00:24:33] There you go. Well, it was a lot of fun. It's such a joy to get a chance to really check in with you because you have done a fantastic job of, to some extent, reframing what we're doing. I think it's maybe a political reframing of of our society. Maybe economics has always been politics in camouflage. But can you start us off by just giving a little bit of the overview of Citizens, why you wrote the book and what you want people to do when they've when they've consumed it and and and how you see, you know, I spent so long writing funding proposals. Your theory of change, that's the phrase I've picked up on. But but Jon, Citizens, tell us how you came to where you've got to.

Christiana: [00:25:17] Can can I just say before you answer that, Jon, just for listeners who haven't seen your book, that the subtitle is so fantastic and already gives a preview, 'why the key to fixing everything is all of us'. I just think it's such a brilliant subtitle, So sorry, I just had to sneak that in before you answered Paul's very good question.

Paul: [00:25:39] We are on commission from your publishers, by the way. So buy the book. Jon.

Jon: [00:25:42] You're always very welcome to interrupt Paul to praise me Christiana. Let me get that right.

Christiana: [00:25:47] Oh, okay, okay.

Jon: [00:25:48] So, yeah, so let me start maybe actually with my a little taste of my favourite story from the research for the book, which is actually the story of the the transformation of the Taiwanese government over the last decade or so, because I think there's a lot that we might unpick in in that for what listeners to this podcast might do, whether whether in their professional lives or their personal lives and for the kind of theory of change question that you're starting to hint at Paul. And basically I'll do the short version, you'll have to read the book for the long version, my friends. But, um, but the story starts back in 2012. The government of Taiwan at the time launched what they called the Economic Power Up Plan, and they did it with TV ads that said things like, let's not waste time talking about policies and complicated things like that. We'll get on with growing the economy and you get on with your lives. And it's a form of communication that I like to call, shush little people, just go shopping. And it seemed to go down okay at first. But what happened was that a group of hackers originally started to organize and they called themselves gov zero because their main way of working was that they created parallel websites, the government websites, all with the URLs ending gzerov.tw, and on these websites what you could do. They scraped a load of data, made it available to upvote and downvote.

Jon: [00:27:06] They did conversation menus so you could download them and talk about the workings of government around your kitchen table, all this kind of stuff. It wasn't enormous. Don't let me overstate it. It was essentially a kind of arts project, but it started to grow. Two years past, 2014 came and the government tried to rush through a trade bill with mainland China under the banner of the Economic Power Up Plan. And at that point, a protest broke out and the protesters occupied the Taiwanese parliament. And what they were doing there was they were using the gov zero tools to debate the clauses of the trade bill. And the gov zero gang got a broadband connection and started streaming footage of what the protesters were doing all over the country. And at this point, a kind of critical moment came because the Speaker of the parliament came under pressure to boot the protesters out and he didn't. Instead, he said, this is this is what should be happening here. This is what this space should be for.

Christiana: [00:27:54] Wow.

Jon: [00:27:56] Yeah. And in that moment, the whole story and we'll come back to that word, I'm sure the whole story of the relationship between citizen and state shifted. The speaker promised the protesters that the trade bill would get due scrutiny. It got due scrutiny and got thrown out. Six months later, there were municipal elections all over Taiwan, and candidates were elected, often from nowhere, who'd stood by the protesters. And in response to that, central government invited one of the leaders of the hacker movement to become a mentor to a government minister and started to bring the workings of gov zero into the workings of government. Fast forward another two years 2016. There was a presidential election. Power changed hands and that person who had who had been invited to become a mentor now became a minister in their own right. So hacker to mentor to minister in four years. And then fast forward another four years, as I say. And when COVID hit, it was that person who led the Taiwanese COVID response, and they characterized that response by three principles; fast, fun and fair. And and what they essentially did was crowdsource the national response. The president made a speech where she essentially said, we don't know how to deal with this challenge. This will be bigger than anything we've ever faced. What we do know is that we'll deal with it best if we tap into the ideas and energy and resources of everyone. And they did things like high tech, things like they set up challenge prizes where people would create apps that would track face mask availability and case outbreaks and these sorts of things. But they also did some very low tech things. They set up a phone line where any citizen could ring in with ideas for how the country's response could be better.

Jon: [00:29:26] And and a six year old boy rang up. This is my favorite part of this story. A six year old boy rang up and said, the boys in my class don't want to wear their face masks because they're pink and they think that they're girly. So you need to do something to make pink face masks cool. And I think you should work with the baseball team. And three days later, they had half the Taiwanese baseball team, the little boy and the president, all on the national televised press conference, resplendent in their pink face masks. Now, the reason why I went straight there and wanted to tell that story at such length and like I say, I think we'll unpick it and get into it. But the the what that speaks to for me is an, is an entirely different idea of who people are and what we're capable of and therefore a different idea of the role of leadership. I think we've been in a place where the default story of the individual in our society is the consumer story. It's a story that says that people are individuals, that their agency is limited to choosing between the options that someone else offers, that their primary motive will always be self-interest. And that story is deeply limiting of who we are, what we're capable of, what change we can make. And and what I think the Taiwan story speaks so powerfully to more powerfully than any other example I've yet come across.

Jon: [00:30:39] Is an entirely different idea that says that actually people are citizens, people are creative, caring, capable creatures. And if and the right way, the most powerful way to face into the challenges of our time is to invite them in to get everyone on the pitch to to tap into the idea that all of us are smarter than any of us. And if we can if we can invite that, that that that huge diversity of wisdom and energy and insight, who knows better how six year old boys think than another six year old boy. Then then that is how we will best be able to face the challenges. And so I wrote the book. I wrote the book really, because, I mean, I'd been wanting to try and get these ideas out of my head that I've been working with for a decade or more. But I wrote the sort of the moment when I wrote the book was was during that first wave of COVID when I knew about what was going on in Taiwan. And but all that we could see in the UK was a very limited picture, an idea that limited people to what they could do. And so I, I wrote the book really to, to offer a different way of seeing the moment in time we're living in and offer a different, a whole different strategy really, for for leadership and for us as individuals.

Christiana: [00:31:51] So Jon, I totally love that. Sorry, Paul, can I can I jump in? This is your interview and here I am hacking into your interview.

Paul: [00:31:58] No, it's not. No, it's not. No, no, no. Go for it. Go for it.

Christiana: [00:32:02] So, Jon, I totally love the story of Taiwan, but I love what you're positing. And I would say the reconception of what leadership is in the 21st century is is so critical and so urgent to move from leadership that is positional to leadership that actually has to do with the capacity that each one of us has to elevate others to do the right thing. And so it's it's it's such a beautiful it sort of puts the concept of leadership. It turns it on its head and and really invites each of us to look at ourselves and others, all of us as potential leaders. But I wanted to draw you back to one moment in that story, Jon, that seems to me as the turning point where from everything else cascaded and that is the moment in which the speaker of parliament said. Instead of throwing them out, said, no, no, no. This is exactly what we should be listening to. What is your theory as to, what was that moment of enlightenment for the speaker? How? Because anyone else under previous hierarchical thinking would have called the police and thrown them out and that was a turning point. So what what happened there? What what led to the speaker having that brilliant moment of enlightenment to realise this is a historical opportunity to change the way decisions are being made.

Jon: [00:33:59] I'm so glad you've taken me there. So this, this really is the heart of and the edge of my thinking and learning at the moment, because that moment, I agree, was completely crucial. And I and I believe that moments like that are what we need to create and or harness if we're going to make the changes that we badly need to make. It's you guys have been talking about tipping points on this podcast for a long time. That that was a that was a social tipping point. Now the the way I see it and I think what it speaks to is a, is a theory of change that says that that humans are citizens by nature. This is who we are. We don't need therefore to be. The work isn't to teach people to to be citizens. The work is to to to reshape the story such that we we invite people into who they want to be already. And I think what happened in that moment, to answer your question directly, I've I think it was a combination of the the mindset and the skill set of Speaker Wang and who in many ways from the outside doesn't look like the most likely. He was a he's an old he's sort of old ish guy, a member of the governing party by political affiliation, although like in the UK, they sort of step away from their political affiliation to become speaker. He'd had a very good career, but he was considered to be at the end of it.

Jon: [00:35:19] He was considered an establishment figure. But maybe there are some things he's. Taiwan was only really been an electoral democracy even for the last 20 30 years. And he would have he had living memory of autocracy. He had living memory of of where this might go. And I think that that was part of it. So I think there are some things and he had some skills. Clearly, he had some understanding and some deep connection to his to his values and his and his way of seeing the world. But I think also the agency wasn't just with him, it was also with the gov zero movement. And I think the other critical moment in this was was when the gov zero gang reacted almost immediately to the, to the occupation of the Parliament by getting that broadband connection in and ensuring that it was possible for people all over the country to almost immediately start seeing what the protesters were doing. And the fact that those protesters were were were discussing were enacting the citizen story, essentially. And so for my to my mind, there's a there's a there's a sort of equation taking shape for me about how we how we create, how we design for and harness these moments when the story might shift. That is some sort of combination of the mindset and the skill sets of the of the politicians, of the leaders involved and and the visibility and the the the way that we as demonstrators of the new story make that visible and and to some extent un ignorable like how you how you live that out and that is a theory of change that I'm now working with, playing with in some ways in everything I'm doing.

Jon: [00:37:07] You, you, your listeners and you may have noticed in the last week or so the before we're recording this, the launch of the a project called the People's Plan for Nature, which has been I was I've been involved in from the beginning bringing together the big nature NGOs in the UK to to come in behind the public and hear the stories of community action from all over the UK, and then to convene a citizens assembly and develop a set of recommendations that truly come from the people of the country and and those NGOs coming in behind those at the same time as David Attenborough is on is on the nation's screens with a with a celebration of British nature. And the idea of that it's I'm not saying it's perfect. I and I'm continuing to try and figure out how we might do more of this. And I'd love to engage on this with with your listeners and with you. And but it is an experiment in going how might we create the kind of create the kind of cultural moment where where the story might shift?

Paul: [00:38:09] Well well, let me let me quote Jon Alexander on leadership, because you've said some interesting things that I really wasn't expecting, and I really enjoyed you talking about new forms of leadership. You said leaders need to be able to say things like, I need help. Leaders need not the answers but the questions. You said government needs to learn to trust the people, which I think is perhaps a huge piece of learning and the idea of leaders as facilitators to trying to create safe uncertainty, which is something I think perhaps Christiana knows a lot about from the on the road to the Paris Agreement. And I mean, just today, I can't resist saying that, Jacinda Ardern said you can be anxious, sensitive, kind, wear your heart on your sleeve. You can be a mother or not an ex-Mormon or not, a nerd, a crier, a hugger. You can be all of these things. And not only can you be here, you can lead. So where else do we see, do you see that type of leadership showing up Jon? I'm sorry to sort of pin you on these these these practical details, but you look so keenly with the eye to see. I'd love to hear what catches it.

Jon: [00:39:18] I mean, the honest answer is I see it emerging everywhere. But but but taking hold as yet in relatively few places. And maybe I'll just add a, add a if I may unpack just briefly the because the work I do is rooted not just in two stories, this idea of people as consumers or as citizens, but there's also a third story, which is that which I talk about as the subject story, which is an idea that of that there are a God given few who know best and will lead us to the best outcomes, and they will tell the rest of us what to do. And the reason I go there in this conversation about leadership is to say that I there are I think there are two types of positional leadership or two manifestations of it. There's one which is the, the, the one which is easy to dismiss, which is the kind of which is the domineering, the command leadership, which is what we what we what we think about when we kind of caricature bad leadership I think. I think that and I think that comes from the subject story.

Jon: [00:40:17] I think in the consumer story actually, there is that that for me is where leadership gets at least purports to be flipped on its head. And we talk about servant leadership, but I still think that that's still trapped in a in a kind of in an idea of the leader of the leader as separate. And so for me, the citizen story is one where the leader actually is neither commanding nor serving, but is, but is facilitating, is convening, is holding, the space, is eliciting. And I get frustrated by, by the lack of it in the climate world if I'm honest I feel like the there is too much that says people need to be served still in that world. I don't think and I think it comes to, if you are think think about the speech as I say that the Taiwanese president gave where the starting point was. We don't know how to deal with this thing. But what we do know is that we'll deal with it best by tapping into the ideas and energy and resources of everyone. That is very different from saying.

Christiana: [00:41:16] Collective wisdom. Collective wisdom is what she's talking about.

Jon: [00:41:20] Right. She's also expressing uncertainty and and not trying to say we're on it. And I and I feel like far too much still. We're in a kind of a we're in we're seeking to say to people, don't worry, like we can do this. There's a sort of there's a version of the optimism that you guys talk about. And I know it's not the one you really mean, but there is a version, there is a manifestation of optimism that says it's going to be okay.

Christiana: [00:41:46] That everything is fine.

Jon: [00:41:47] Right. Don't worry. And I think the the kind of radical honesty of the kind of leadership I'm talking about and the is to say it's we don't know if it's going to be fine. In fact, it's not going to be fine. But but but what, in many senses but what we can do and what we do know is that we'll make the we'll make it the best we possibly can if we get everyone involved. And I think that that kind of leadership can be is so needed in this moment, because without it, there's this sense that I think we all know actually we all know that that that that this isn't sort of fixed, that we're not on top of it, that we're not in the right place. And and acknowledging that and being deeply honest about it is, for me, the thing that will create the space for us to to actually get everyone involved. It's really interesting. One of the I'll give you an example of where I've seen this leadership manifest in a really dark way, which is in the research for the book. One of the things I did was was I went a little way into the and I sort of hesitate to say this, but I want to go there. I went a little way into the QAnon conspiracy theory world.

Christiana: [00:43:00] And you came out alive.

Jon: [00:43:03] I came out alive. I'm here. But the starting point on that journey is is you are needed.

Paul: [00:43:10] Yeah.

Jon: [00:43:10] The first message is we need you.

Christiana: [00:43:13] Oh, how interesting. Wow, that's an invitation.

Paul: [00:43:18] Your country needs you, right?

Jon: [00:43:20] Right. And people like humans. Humans need agency, right? Like we don't need. We need everything to be okay, but we do need to be needed and we need and we need to be able to shape things. This is it's why Take Back Control is such a powerful line, right? Like and I think it's the way I would describe the moment we're in and the one of the deepest dangers at the moment we're in is that too many of those of us, I will say, who are trying to create a better world, who are trying to avert the climate emergency, who are trying to to do good stuff, are starting from an understanding of the rest of humanity as as needing to have it done for them. What happens as a result of that is not just that it doesn't get done because because there are no one of us can do it for everyone else. But it's also that those who are who are who we're trying to do it for are actually becoming ever more resentful because we're denying them agency in this moment when when they know that we're not on top of the challenges. And so they start to seek that agency anywhere they can find it and from anyone who will offer it them and those who would actually rebuild the subject story, those who would take us back into a kind of authoritarian world, those are the people who are realizing that offering people a sense of participation, offering people a sense of agency is a is an incredibly powerful thing to do. And look, it's not by accident that I that I bring up the story of Taiwan, where a parliament was occupied and then mentioned the QAnon conspiracy. Right. That we saw January the 6th. And you contrast the what happened there with what happened in Taiwan.

Christiana: [00:45:05] Yes, exactly. That's what was going through my mind when you were telling the story. Exactly. January 6th contrast. Well, how ironic, Jon, that that you mentioned the QAnon, how ironic that something that leads to autocratic decision making is is started by the magnetism of we need you, you can participate here and then that gets completely chopped off because then everybody has to obey the orders that come top down. But how ironic that that the opening or the invitation to join is exactly the opposite of the ultimate destination, but that they understand that that is the way to invite people in.

Jon: [00:45:58] Exactly. And I think we can see it crop up almost everywhere. I've in the in the sort of in some of the revisions I've made to the book, I've talked a bit about about Ukraine and Putin's invasion. And you can see again, the three stories I talk about. Putin's logic is absolutely subject logic. The the the Ukrainian response, the defiance and the and the and the energy and the distribution of power there is very much a kind of citizen energy that's been backed up then by by by all over Europe, Poles and Germans and Brits offering their homes to those people and trying to chip in any way they can, even through to people using Airbnb and TripAdvisor and things to to post accurate information like it's a true kind of citizen energy to the to the to the response. And then what I worry is that the the kind of the official response, the kind of the the big capital W western response is is still too much from within that consumer story is still one that that says we will we will manage this with sanctions and we will we will and doesn't say to people doesn't come in behind that that nascent citizen energy and say we need all of you like what more can we do? How can we how can we tap into your energy? What more do you want to do? Like it's the same again as in COVID. It's the same again as we saw when when our governments assumed that all we wanted to do was go back to normal. And so. So when the kind of when the immediate logic of of of stay at home and do as you're told started to collapse actually then shifted the message to things like eat out to help out unless we can see this this this opportunity of leaning into and stepping into a story that sees people as citizens and invite them into their power to do kind of meaningful work in this time that is deeply needed, then` we are we are pushing people into the arms of the of the subject story, I think. 

Christiana: [00:47:56] Totally.

Paul: [00:47:57] Now, I do know another story for your for your Rolodex of stories. I was actually in Puerto Rico in early 2020, and somebody involved in the disaster response pointed out that actually those people who came together after the storm survived and those people who didn't come together actually died. I mean, it's shocking to see, you know, that that 2000 people died in this month after the storm, literally because they hadn't got food or water. You know, the whole island was devastated. But coming together was the survival story. And you talked about leadership. I am forever mentioning on a £5 note in the UK it says I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat. But when a political leader actually tells the truth to the public, it can be galvanising, it can be empowering. And you know, another thing that you've said and you quoted Jon, Rebecca Solnit, but I do love this quote because it's so true that 'we need to steal the teddy bear of despair from the loving arms of the left'. You talked about us looking at this chasm and thinking about what stones we're going to hit as we fall down. And you said build the freaking bridge across the chasm. And so is it right to interpret your message as one of of of kind of empowerment and and to sort of reframe ourselves? Because we I've read listener comments to Outrage and Optimism. A lot of people sort of say, well, what can I do? And I think one one of the things you've said quite powerfully is, well, one of the first things you can do as an individual is stop being an individual. But I mean, you know, how how how can we, you know, sort of what's I guess the toolbox for action is in the book to some extent?

Jon: [00:49:32] To some extent. And I think there are two, almost two distinct toolkits for action. The book is in a way probably too ambitious, which is probably captured in the subtitle as well. Right. But but I guess I'm the primary audience for the book really is addressing people in positions of power and influence, is addressing leaders and saying, please, for the love of God, see people differently and see see people as participants in what you're trying to do in the world. Don't see them as needing to be served. And there's a whole set of tools around how to frame what you're trying to do in the world as a question rather than as a statement, how to what you might what different things people can do to participate in a cause, from gathering data to sharing connections, to telling stories to. And so there's a whole toolkit from that perspective. But I think the challenge at the level of the individual, like, what can I do in my personal life is is another and is is is hugely valid. And I've been trying to do some more work on this as well. And it is in the book. And I guess I think there's probably a three step response to that for me.

Christiana: [00:50:38] Okay, here we go. Take note, take out your little piece of paper or your tablet or whatever. Here we go, Jon.

Paul: [00:50:41] I have my pen, I have my pen. 

Jon: [00:50:45] Come on with the three steps.

Christiana: [00:50:47] Come on with the three steps.

Jon: [00:50:49] The first step is I talk about us, like finding home. And what I mean by that is, is really choosing a domain, a space, a community to commit to that you feel part of you feel passionate about that you that you want to improve, that you want to make better and that you feel you have permission to act from within. And that might be geographic. It might be the place where you live, it might be where you work, it might be it might be a kind of industry cross-industry thing in the sector you work in. But choose something.

Christiana: [00:51:22] It's your chosen community, to belong to a community of like minded.

Jon: [00:51:27] Exactly. The second step, and this may be is a little different to what you might expect is to find the others. It's it's it's to find those who who who also want to do something in that space to to to to bring people together. And only then is the third step to decide what the first thing to do is together.

Christiana: [00:51:48] And sorry Jon to find the others and invite them in or find the others. And what?

Jon: [00:51:54] Find the others. Invite them in, come together like convene for the sake of convening initially. Like celebrate something together. The the the first the first step is to choose the community. The second step is to is to is to meet. 

Christiana: [00:52:09] Enlarge the community. Yeah.

Jon: [00:52:11] It's to see one another. Right. And only then is it to act. And critically it's to act together. And and and if you do that the I think so many like I always contrast what I'm talking about with with with the parallel recipe from within the consumer story. And I think the consumer story the way to be good from within the consumer story is the sort of list of 100 things you have to do to save to to you can do to save the world, right? It's like but they're all individual and they're and they're all kind of context agnostic. And and what I want to break away from is that sense, both that sense. Because because the truth is that true agency is always collective. And one of the one of the lovely discoveries in the research for the book is that the word citizen literally derives from language that means together people, like this is who we are. And and so I'll give you an example that I really love, which is the an organization called East Marsh United, in Grimsby in north east England, started up in the East Marsh, but in what was effectively one of the roughest neighbourhoods in the country, like the street where county lines gangs were active, there's a story about there being a dead dog in a bathtub for four weeks because none of the housing associations or the police would come and help because they'd just othered this community to the extent where it wasn't worth it. A guy who I've become very close to went to a counsellor meeting quite. He didn't want to go, but a neighbour of his said our moms would have gone. So he went along and he didn't want to go because it would just be another kind of lamentation of everything that was wrong. And at that meeting, he stood up and he said, who cares about this place? Who loves this place? And and then when when lots of people actually put their hands up, he said, why don't we just let's start let's, let's go and clean up one street. Let's not sit here any longer talking about how wrong it is and and investing all of our agency in this council who who can't do it for us because they haven't been able to. Let's just come together tomorrow, clear one street and go for a drink. And then we'll. And then at least we'll have done something. That that starting moment became a regular gathering, became a magazine called the Proud East Marshian, became a six monthly arts festival called The Sun and Moon Arts Festival. And last year, they ran and successfully fulfilled a £500,000 community share offer, which in that part of Grimsby is enough to buy ten houses, refit them using good local jobs and let them out as a social landlord to create a sustainable revenue stream for the rest of the organisation.

Jon: [00:54:46] And and I could have I could have told you I probably should have told you better more climatey stories from about community energy versions of this.

Paul: [00:54:53] No, that's a beautiful story, Jon.

Jon: [00:54:54] But but this, this, this. When you start to look for it, you find these stories everywhere and you start to you start to see that. And this a bit goes back to what you were saying, Paul. You were quoted quoting me embarrassingly on my on what actually is my view of the quite dangerous role that our media is playing in this moment in time, which is I think I think far too much of our media is is staring into the chasm and trying to, as you as you quoted me like, trying to figure out trying to be right about which rocks will hit on the way down and completely ignoring the work of the Billy's. This this guy, Billy Dasein and the East Marsh United crew. Completely ignoring Kennedy Odede and the work he's doing, he's doing across the slums of Nairobi. Completely ignoring Immy Kaur and what she's doing in Birmingham. Like, I could go on and on and on. But these stories of this emergent reality, this this, this emergent deep story, this idea of the citizen are are are not being told. And I find it I find it mind blowing that I'm pretty much the only person, I think who is who is telling this story of the Taiwanese COVID response. These guys these guys published a paper in an English language journal listing 124 things that they had already done before the UK even went into lockdown. Like, this stuff is available.

Paul: [00:56:18] You got you got to salute the speed with which the other side move. I met people who sort of crowdsourced the Icelandic Constitution in a kind of an afternoon and now the country is very well governed with it. But look, Jon, I have to hand over to Christiana, but I want to say a big thank you. Also the introduction to your book written by Brian Eno, who is is a genius. But he wouldn't allow me to say that because he would say geniuses come out of a group of people. They come out of a scene and Brian Eno calls it Scenius. So, so thank you for for partnering with him to sort of raise the profile of how we can find the genius in the in the scene in the scenius. But it falls to me to hand over to Christiana for a little bit of a tradition Jon.

Christiana: [00:57:02] Well, Jon, I am so sorry that we're running out of time because honestly, we could sit here and just pepper you with questions and the questions are really just temptations to hear you speak and share your, your thinking. So, so thank you so, so much. But sadly, we do have to come to a close. And listeners will know that the tradition is at the close to ask our guests two questions. So are you ready? Our podcast. Yes. Yo, yo, you're getting nervous. I like that. I like that. Our podcast is called Outrage and Optimism, not just coincidentally, but actually through a very clear view of the world that we need to continue to be ever more outraged at what we have not done yet. And at the same time, it's not a but and at the same time optimistic about what is happening. That includes all of your wonderful stories. So we just wanted to put you on the spot and ask you from where you stand right now, what continues to make you more and more outraged? And what are the rays of optimism in your life?

Jon: [00:58:25] I think the thing that makes me most outraged is the role is actually that the kind of the hero complex of too many of those in positions of power. Like I'm not actually so worried about the people who would try and kind of take over society and subject us again. I'm more outraged at those who who I genuinely believe are trying to do good things in the world but are doing it or trying to do it for people instead of with people. And I'm talking. About our media. I'm talking about leaders of nations. I'm talking about leaders of business. Some of the some of the most feted names, I think are still trapped in that idea that their role is to do for not with. I have a funny relationship with the with the concept of optimism. I really like Rebecca Solnit's thing about hope where she says optimism is a belief that things will be alright no matter what we do and pessimism, belief that things that things will be rubbish no matter what we do. And hope is about clarity and imagination. I really love that of hers. Um, uh, but, but I guess what, what I always go back to is, is a deep faith in, in, in humanity.

Jon: [00:59:31] Like I just, I think humans are incredible creatures. And I and I believe that so much of so many of the barriers and so many of so much even of the worst things that are happening in our world are actually coming from shared pain, not from not from ill intent. And I think if we can and what always gives me hope is seeing the. I've had these lovely moments in talking about the book where I've had people come up to me who've said who've actually quite a few people who've said to me that they had they had been seeking the right political out there and they'd gone to places like the Reform Party and not found what they were looking for. And then they and then they see and what what these stories and what I'm talking about something that actually speaks to the truth in them. So that thing of like actually I think the I think the rage of our time is, is in huge extent of frustration. And that insight gives me makes me deeply optimistic.

Paul: [01:00:25] And Jon, if I can quote you one final time, I think you said beautifully that, you know, we need to sort of love humanity as well as loving nature, and you can't set them off against each other. And that that kind of trope in the climate community is kind of like, oh, humans are ruining nature. It's kind of like, duh, you know, it's one thing, one love, one great mass that needs to grow and evolve.

Jon: [01:00:46] One love, my friend.

Paul: [01:00:49] Jon, thank you.

Christiana: [01:00:50] Here, here. Jon, thank you so much. Thank you so much for. Well, for coming on. But also, we know how much work it is to put a book together and to communicate these ideas and find words for for things. So thank you very much for going to all of that effort in order to elicit a very different reaction in everyone to the challenges that we're all facing. Thank you so much.

Paul: [01:01:17] If you'd like to start a new newspaper called The Global Citizen, I certainly will be one of your first subscribers. So. So can we have that positive news?

Christiana: [01:01:27] There you go. You heard it here first.

Jon: [01:01:29] Very good. Thank you for having me.

Paul: [01:01:31] Cheers, Jon. Well, what a sweetie is Jon Alexander and I can see him fired up by this reimagining of people that that that he used to call subjects under the kings and queens then were called consumers under capitalism. And he's so pleased to that they will kind of break out of this capitalist consumer caterpillar and turn into citizen butterflies and be able to do things that that they couldn't do when they were caterpillars and and more power to that that vision. What did you make of the conversation Christiana?

Christiana: [01:02:11] Yeah, I was also thrilled. He he really invites us not just to have a different view of the world, but a different view of ourselves, of self. Who are we and what is our role or our contribution to the world? And, you know, I've come to the point where I think the word empowerment or empowering has been so overused that I'd no longer like the word, but it actually really fits for this, for this context in which he's inviting all of us to discover our own potential, our own agency, our own mission, our own purpose. And that is just so refreshing. So, so refreshing.

Paul: [01:02:56] Yeah. And there's a broader theme here for me personally, which is that he is rejecting the idea that everyone being selfish in a capitalist system is going to lead to the best kind of outcome. And, you know, people talk about like market failures. And I've always wondered what people really mean by that because was the idea that if everyone was really, really selfish, we'd like solve climate change. I don't think it's exactly a market failure. I think it's an idea that the market could do everything failure. That's a bad idea. You know, Thatcher and Reagan and all of that was just like their ideology was let's hide and let's see what the private sector does. And then then then we'll see where we end up. And you end up with like a very fast, evolving society, but one that can have catastrophic problems like climate change. But I think that another thing that he said in an interview was that organizations, so to say non-state actors like corporations, investors, NGOs and governments, of course, but they are the great storytellers of society. And I think that the ability to to find another story and and even to to open a dialogue, to say, well, how are we going to have policy, how are we going to have regulation, how are we going to change as a society to deal with this problem together? Because, you know, if the government just has to kind of like come up with plans and then the public say no and then we're stuck, that doesn't work. We've got to kind of come together around a solution. And I think his his citizen vision is is helpful to frame the thinking around that.

Christiana: [01:04:18] Yeah. For for those who want like a cheat sheet of the book. He has a great table in the book with three columns, very simple. In which he conceptually moves from being the subject of whatever laws. Et cetera. Et cetera. To being a consumer and then to being a citizen. And I just think that it's such a helpful table because it very clearly denotes the progression of of of self and of the view of the world, but also makes it so simple to see the interconnection. So on his column of Citizen, which is clearly what the book is about, he says, we actually move from being dependent through being to independent and then to being interdependent. And we work with citizens not for. We actually engage because of purpose. We participate actively instead of obeying or demanding. And one of on that table, one of the choices that I think is so incredibly helpful is, he says, we've moved from print to analog and to digital in the citizen world. And that to me is so representational because when moving from print to analog, I think we've all sort of gotten that. But from analog to digital, not only dematerializes that which was analog and which and which was print before, but actually it opens the boundaries to connect and interact. And that's what digital is all about. It's about the network, it's about the interconnectedness. And so I just I just love that table. It's such a compelling progression of thinking and conception, as I say, of self and of the world. Really, really recommend buying the book, looking up the table and, and really incorporating that into our everyday action.

Paul: [01:06:40] One more line from that table, Christiana, is the idea that the subject is in a kind of command model, that the consumer is in a serve model. So the kind of leaders of society are kind of serving the consumer, but the leadership as a function in the citizen model is as a facilitator. And certainly I think, you know, the the privilege that I've had for two decades working with enormous corporations is not for a second trying to tell them what to do because they're very big and they're going to do whatever they do, but actually offering for them to to to have a platform to say what they think should be done. That's strong stuff. Strong stuff. 

Christiana: [01:07:18] Yeah, yeah. Well, he said it himself, right? Not command leadership, not servant leadership, but facilitative leadership. Beautifully put.

Paul: [01:07:25] And. And you are, Christiana, if I might say so, a very, very fine facilitator. And we can see what happens when, for example, all the world's governments come together under a single agreement because they were facilitated there. So last cheeky question to you, Christiana, what's the essence of good facilitation?

Christiana: [01:07:44] Listening. That's so, that was an easy one. Listening. You thought you were going to do. You thought you were going to volley me a very difficult question. No, that's an easy one.

Paul: [01:07:55] It was the way, for those who are listening to this and can't see Christiana, her face lit up beaming, and she said, listening. There you go, The Art of Facilitation.

Christiana: [01:08:04] So, Paul, I'm afraid we have to close the close the books here.

Paul: [01:08:08] Unfortunately, we do. Thank you very much to our wonderful guest, Jon Alexander, and details of the purchase of his book and how to follow and engage with this project can be found in the show notes. And also just a reminder to register for the live Outrage and Optimism event. And we look forward to seeing some of you on the 19th of April at that event. And for those who can't make the live recording, you can look forward to hearing the episode on Thursday 20th of April. And we will now leave you with a fitting piece of music that fits right in line with citizenship. And this is The Waves by Banditos. And lead singer Mary Beth Richardson has a quote about their music I'd like to share. She says, 'Everything we write is from the view of every person. We're all in it together'. Handing it over to the band now to intro the song, and then Clay will meet you afterwards with the credits. We're going to miss a week. Have a lovely break and we'll see you in two weeks.

Christiana: [01:08:54] Bye.

Banditos: [01:08:55] Hey, it's Steve from the band Banditos. Our song, The Waves, tells the story of someone making friends with the feelings of being lost, not knowing what's going to last, not knowing what to do with those feelings. Eventually doing nothing. Nothing at all. Much like the dependency we have on non-renewable energy sources. I'm hopeful, however, that there's an affordable boat to the shore. A solar powered boat. For free, for everyone.

Clay: [01:13:24] So there you go. Another episode of Outrage and Optimism. This is Clay from the Outrage and Optimism team. Thank you for listening. The track you just heard is The Waves by Banditos. Banditos' latest record, titled Right On, is available to stream and purchase. It's a really fun record made for everyone. I've been spinning it this week. Please go check the show notes to go listen to them and always, you know, if you like the music, just go buy the record. It's it's the best way to support the artist. So thank you for doing that. Thank you, Banditos. Man, they have such a great sound. And speaking of buying things, Citizens by our guest Jon Alexander comes highly recommended from our team. Check the show notes for a link to purchase and other ways of getting connected with Jon and the work that he's doing. Thank you, Jon. As you can tell, I'm going fast here. I'm going to cut the show notes pretty short this week because the podcast has been running a little over projected time. So thank you for listening this far. The only ask we have before I let you go is please register for our Momentum versus Perfection Live event online in two weeks. You don't want to miss it. Again, it's on the 19th. A link below to save your spot. And if you have a question that you want to put to our host during that live recording, as I mentioned earlier, I opened this voicemail inbox where you can record yourself asking your question. These submitted questions will be a main part of the live event. We want you to participate and we couldn't be more excited to hear from you. So. Okay. Looking forward to your questions. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you in two weeks. Bye.


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