64: Alan Jope is Doubling Down

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Christiana Figueres: In the tradition, Alan, very interesting, in the tradition of Mr. Lever when his people went off to war, right? A very interesting parallel there.

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Alan Jope (guest, CEO of Unilever): And we took huge steps, obviously, to keep the people in our factories safe. It's not pleasant working in a factory wearing PPEs all day at all. But nevertheless, we insisted on it. So our first reflex was look after the people. The second was look after the community. So we immediately made a pledge to donate 100 million euros worth of hand sanitizers, hand hygiene products, food, etc. Then very shortly after that, we said, you know what? Our small suppliers are going to run out of cash. So we extended credit. We used 500 million euros on our balance sheet as early payment to small suppliers so that they could stay in business. Then we started to say, you know what? We need to worry about our ability to run our supply chain. Then we started worrying about collecting cash. Then we started to say, demand patterns are changing with customers. It was only afterwards we realized that basically we had marched through our multi-stakeholder model and used our instincts in the correct sequence. So the first sequence was our people, second sequence was community, then supply, then cost and cash. That served to organize our work in the middle of all this complexity.

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Paul Dickinson: Can I ask actually two questions, but I'm going to do them one at a time, if I may. The first one is about, first of all, I salute the extraordinary coherence of your response to the crisis. It's very moving and I love the lineage of the company. With regard to inequality, that Christiana points out underpins all of these problems and exacerbates them. There has been a crisis. The Black Lives Matter movement has been enormous. You yourselves have used some of your power in terms of advertising budgets, for example, to warn some of your partners like Facebook. Is that correct? That's a very innovative way for you to play your part in society. How is that feeling?

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Alan Jope (guest, CEO of Unilever): You know, on most of these tricky issues, we like to follow a model of first is get our own house in order, then worry about the value chain that we operate in, are our suppliers, are they operating to a high standard, and only then worry about our impact on society through our brands, etc. And I just want to give the caveat that we are not finished on the journey of becoming a fully inclusive organization that's representative of the communities we do business in. So we've got work still to do to get our own house in order. However, we have a choice of where we advertise our brands, and we felt and feel that the level of divisiveness and hate speech that we were seeing on some of the, particularly the social media platforms, was creating an environment that we wouldn't want our brands to be part of. And there was a growing movement to come off Facebook for a month, but we decided we didn't want to jump on that bandwagon and rather we would set our own course. So we made the choice to come off of a number of social media platforms in the US for six months. So we're actually off for the whole of the rest of this year. And the reason is we want to give the platforms time to take meaningful action and not do something that's just tokenism. And if I'm honest, also that'll take us through the political turmoil of the upcoming elections in the US, which we think are likely to create a highly toxic environment on social media. And we just don't want to... Our brands are simple products that offer simple benefits, and we don't want them showing up in that context. And maybe just to back up, I don't like to characterize it as a boycott. It was more just being sure that our brands were showing up in the right place.

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Paul Dickinson: That's a very, very thoughtful answer, thank you. So my second, final little question, and it's... We've got thousands, many, many thousands of listeners. It's a great privilege. Many of them are in business or starting businesses. And to the degree to which, across all of your brands, you've got so much experience of how to make a sustainable business plan. Is it about marketing? Is it about... If you're approaching the challenge of building business for good, from your brilliant experience, what are the two or three high-level things people should think about when they're trying to change their business into a purpose-led business that leaves the world in a better place than we found it?

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Alan Jope (guest, CEO of Unilever): So the first thing is a change in mindset that there is absolutely no trade-off between responsible business and strong business performance. So we spent many years trying to understand what's the business case for sustainability. And it's absolutely there in our face. Our brands that operate on purposeful platforms are growing faster than the rest of the brands in the portfolio. We think we've taken out 800 million euros of cost, that's a billion dollars of cost, through responsible sourcing and sustainable sourcing. We know it has triggered innovation. We know it has reduced risk in our supply chain. There's no successful Unilever in an unsuccessful planet. And so the more we can do sustainable sourcing, the better our business is. And last, but by no means least, some have already mentioned, is our employees, it's an absolute magnet for talent. We have a graduate recruitment program in 54 countries around the world. We're employer of choice in our sector in 52 out of 54 countries. And that was 17 countries just a few years ago. So we have this profound belief that the more we move our business onto sustainable footing, the better the performance will be. And the final point is it must not be just a bolted on piece of marketing activity. We don't use the word corporate social responsibility because that implies that it's something that is just slapped on top of your existing operations. And you know, one of our kind of secrets that we talk about openly, but not too many people seem to copy is brand say is different from brand do. Now, what do I mean by that? The reason why Dove can talk about girl self-esteem is because we've taught 35 million girls one to one, a one hour class that shifts their perception on body image. The reason why Lifebuoy can talk about saving lives of kids from preventable illness is because we've now taught a billion people proper hand washing techniques. The reason why Domestice can talk about a campaign for decent sanitation and hygiene everywhere is because we've put 18 million toilets into homes that wouldn't otherwise have them, mainly in India. And it's those actions on the ground that give you the permission to talk with authenticity about what your brand stands for. And too many brands talk the talk, but don't walk the walk.

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Clay (podcast producer, live in studio): Yeah.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: Alan, I love that. And I love also that you talk about mindset as this sort of like basis to change your mindset and change your set of expectations in terms of what's possible. The book Christiana and I wrote, The Future We Choose, we base all of that in terms of how we face this challenge has to be based on a shift of mindset that infuses all the action that you then take with meaning and you go in a different direction. So I love that. And I just connect that to something you said earlier, which is that if you'd come into Unilever and try to sort of de-sustainability, you know, take that away, you'd have faced a revolution, right? Because the mindset had shifted and they identified with being part of a company that was doing the right thing and that had values at its core. So that's very hopeful because that suggests this is a one-way street as companies go down on this road and it becomes embedded in the culture and in mindset shift, they won't go back. But where does that take you next? Because the interesting thing about that is that always has to kind of go further and go deeper and, you know, keep moving further forward and keep pressing the boundaries. So as you sort of look forward in this world of climate change, sustainability, inequality, where do you hope Unilever goes next?

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Alan Jope (guest, CEO of Unilever): So, Tom, I think that we are at a little bit of a tipping point on particularly, let's just focus on climate change. It's an important area. It's an area you guys are real experts in. But there are significant headwinds at the moment. The low cost of fossil fuels, perverse government policies that subsidize and incentivize dirty energy, cheap, now cheap, hydrocarbon based petrochemicals, the empty coffers in many treasuries where people are panicking about short term costs of shifting systems towards green systems. You know, you could at this moment throw in the towel. And fortunately, we are inspired by the tailwinds. And the tail, the single biggest tailwind is the energy of young people. We we take absolute inspiration that, you know, for for a generation has been told, be careful, there's a pandemic coming. And as grownups ignored it, and now look where we are. And it's absolutely incontrovertible now that climate change is well, you know, well on its way. And frankly, we've just not taken enough action. And I don't think young people are going to tolerate that. And I think we're going to get driven hard. And we're very inspired. And so, you know, three weeks ago, we made a series of very big commitments around climate change. We're already using 100% sustainably sourced electricity across all of our operations. But we want the whole company to be climate neutral by 2039. We announced that we're setting up a one billion euro fund for our brands to invest in climate positive projects and nature positive projects. We've introduced a generative agricultural policy. We've committed to putting carbon footprints on all of our products. And we've asked all of our suppliers to start putting the carbon footprint of the products they're supplying to us. So look, business can, we can take big action. And I think the wind beneath our sails is the energy and impetus of young people. And we will not be distracted from addressing climate change.

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Christiana Figueres: Love it. Well, that's very heartening and inspiring to hear, Alan. And as we sadly wrap up, Alan, you know, this podcast is called Outrage and Optimism, because we believe that we have to be outraged about what we haven't done yet. And yet at the same time, optimistic about what we're doing and what we can do. So at the end, we usually ask our guests to put yourself somewhere on that gamut, on that range between outrage and optimistic, especially now in the face of all of these compounding and converging crises. Where would you put yourself?

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Alan Jope (guest, CEO of Unilever): Well, I'll pick two things on different ends of the spectrum. I am outraged at the mismatch between the scientific evidence of where we are in this disease progression and the political lack of leadership that's encouraging opening up far too quickly. And many more people are going to die because of popular politics rather than following the science that sits behind this disease. And I am outraged at that. But I'm highly optimistic about a world that is increasingly going to be led by young people.

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Paul Dickinson: Yeah. Oh, wonderful.

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Christiana Figueres: Wonderful.

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Paul Dickinson: Love it.

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Christiana Figueres: Alan, thank you so much. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you for letting us peek into both your head and your soul. That was really quite an honor. Thank you very, very much.

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Alan Jope (guest, CEO of Unilever): Thank you for having me. It's been a privilege.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: Thanks, Alan.

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Paul Dickinson: Great to talk to you.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: Bye, Alan.

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Paul Dickinson: Thank you so much.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: Bye. How amazing to get the chance to sit down with Alan and hear how things are going in Unilever and how he's stepping up. I mean, I hadn't quite just thought through the reality of running a business in this time of COVID. And of course, there's all this personal tragedy and the fact that actually individuals are being affected by this. And I thought that it was very moving the way he talked about how that's affecting the board and how they're thinking it through. But what did you guys think? What did you leave the conversation with?

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Paul Dickinson: I mean, I'm just so excited at this notion of a pretty large business serving literally billions of customers having purpose written into what they do. And I really admire them for going all in and doing it across the whole portfolio and saying this is what our company is completely about and the idea that they can attract better talent and the fact that maybe it comes from a particular route, that there's still some of the founding spirit and great brands like Ben and Jerry's have joined. And I'm sure that they're kind of complex DNA, I believe has now a will to good. And that I find tremendously exciting.

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Christiana Figueres: I was really impacted by the story he told of the legacy of Unilever over a hundred years old and how one of the founders, Mr. Lever, way back when was from today's perspective, quite a pioneer in the SDGs. Really devoting his company to cleanliness, i.e. health, SDG, and to making everyday life easier for women, i.e. empowering women, another SDG. I mean, it's pretty impressive to see companies that have such long, long, deep roots into not just doing well, but doing good. But it also made me think of the following. I wonder how the challenge of moving towards sustainability, including climate, is different for large companies than for small companies. Because what we have heard from the likes of Microsoft going to be climate neutral by 2030, Apple just a few weeks ago going to be climate neutral by 2030, Amazon launching their climate pledge to be climate neutral by 2040, and inviting other companies to come along, as Tom has told us. And then BP that we just spoke about, right? What do these have in common? They're all mammoth companies. So my question is, is there a competitive advantage? Is there a legacy advantage? Is there a public exposure advantage? Is there an advantage to positioning because you want to get the best and the brightest brains? Are all of those advantages being harvested by large companies? And can they be harvested by small and medium enterprise or do small and medium enterprise have other advantages that they could take on board now because they're smaller, they're more flexible? Have either of you thought about this or talked to any small and medium enterprise CEOs? I must admit to my shame that I tend to talk to CEOs of large companies and not to small and medium. So there you go. A lagoon identified.

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Paul Dickinson: Well, actually, you know, when I want to talk to the people running these small enterprises, I look in the mirror and I talk to myself because I have a little insulation company for 10 years.

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Christiana Figueres: Okay, so tell us.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: What do you tell yourself?

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Paul Dickinson: Congratulations. No, no. It hasn't gone completely as one might hope. And you know, I have actually lovely colleagues who've been working really hard for a decade. And I think when you were talking, Christiana, I noticed my kind of heart being ripped open again. It's not just massive attack that achieves that. My thesis has been probably for 20 years that the kind of sustainability marketing, like people want to buy the solutions. They don't want to buy the problems. There is a definition of marketing that says marketing is giving people what they want. So, there should be, it should be like easy to say we're the kind of, we're the solution to your climate change problems, buy from us. But actually, I've discovered that some of the most successful brands in the world don't kind of major on that. You don't tend to see Tesla advertising at all, to be honest with you. But when Tesla talk, they don't really present themselves, for example, as a climate change company. And yet, the electrification of vehicles is thought to be one of the most important parts of climate change. I myself find it very difficult. I've talked to people at Unilever many times, lots of different people at all levels. To what degree can you put sustainability into the marketing of the products and achieve certain goals? But what I would tell you is that things for the little insulation company that I work at, Mitchell and Dickinson, if you want to get your home insulated, in the UK. We don't work anywhere else.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: And I've had my windows done by Mitchell and Dickinson, thoroughly recommended.

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Paul Dickinson: Thank you very much indeed, Mr. Carnac. My point being, our older book is kind of looking better than it has ever looked before. But it wasn't the case that going around just sort of saying, we're a climate change company, you know, don't waste your money on lost heat. That didn't immediately turn into sales for us. I wish it had.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: Yeah, I mean, I think there is a little bit, Christiana, of just media attention on all of this, right? I mean, you know, you don't get, because SMEs, small and medium-sized enterprises, are not media-worthy necessarily on their own. They could be if they band together or if there's some way of gathering them together. But it is big news when Apple does something or Amazon does something. So I think there's a bit of kind of mind-share attention.

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Christiana Figueres: Well, sorry, let me say they're newsworthy. They're not covered by the media. That's a different issue. But they're definitely newsworthy.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: They're definitely newsworthy. And, but actually much of the power does come through working collectively, right? I mean, the other interesting thing is about the intersection between governments and businesses and the lobbying that takes place and the way in which that does or doesn't facilitate change. And SMEs tend to be more recipients of what happens in that rather than participants in it, which is a real shame, actually. I mean, on the occasion when I have spoken to smaller businesses, you can, they are just as purpose driven, right? And often more so, they can be much more human, right? Because they're smaller and they have deeper relationships, et cetera, and people really want to do the right thing. Of course, there's a different suite of benefits and challenges. They're much, generally, less cash rich. So they might not do things like buy nature-based solutions or be able to invest quickly.

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Christiana Figueres: And have less access to credit.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: So they maybe can't invest in particular, you know, high capital items like renewable energy, infrastructure, or other things. But my sense is that there is massive latent demand. And as we know, 95% of the economy is small and medium sized enterprises. So we do need to expand this conversation out from just being the big companies to also being small and medium sized enterprises as well.

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Christiana Figueres: So I think on this podcast, we should take on a little homework. Which is to not immediately, because we will have to do our research here and talk to people. But I think we should devote an episode to where are small and medium enterprise companies now in the post-pandemic world faced with climate coming at them. How have they been surviving? What is their vision? I think we should definitely open that conversation. It would be hugely educational for us as co-hosts as well as for the listeners.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: And if we could find someone who runs a small business, maybe an insulation company, we could have him on as a guest.

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Paul Dickinson: Well, I'll see if I'll ask her out if we find somebody. On the subject, just before we move off the large companies, I do believe that one of us is a director of a very large company called Axiona. Can I ask you, Christiana, Axiona, I believe, are involved in energy. What percentage of Axiona's business is renewable or green energy?

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Christiana Figueres: Well, Axiona does two or actually three main businesses. They produce energy, they generate, they build and generate electricity, all of it renewable, all of it either wind or solar. They operate in every continent in 40 countries. And they also own actually a wind turbine company. So they go all the way from the production of the technology all the way to the generation itself. They also have a branch that is infrastructure. So they do heavy infrastructure, tunnels, roads, subways. Paul would call it underground.

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Paul Dickinson: The underground, yes, that's correct.

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Christiana Figueres: The underground. And they also have a branch that does services. So many airports are, all the operations on the ground are serviced by a Xionet team.

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Paul Dickinson: This is what happens when you have a big company. It just like does a million, billion different things. But here, Christiana, let me ask you a question.

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Christiana Figueres: But again, it's also a company that is over 100 years old, right?

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Paul Dickinson: Yeah, well, that gives you more time to get things done. But here's the thing. You told me a little bit earlier before we were recording that Xionet does 150% of its energy is renewable. And I just wanted to pick you up there on a certain questionable character to the maths. But my ultimate question is, why did that business focus completely on renewables? Why is there not some kind of fossil energy in there somewhere? What's the secret of that pure renewables?

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Christiana Figueres: Well, that I must say is totally the vision of the current CEO. It's a family owned company. They have some shares out in the market, but mostly it's family owned. And the current CEO, when he became the CEO, it was his decision to turn the company that was mostly an infrastructure company, infrastructure in terms of roads, buildings, bridges, et cetera, tunnels, to begin to move some of the capital over to renewable energy. Why? Because he is a total climate-directed person. He understands both the threats of climate change to business, but also to human beings. And he saw the opportunity. So it was, I don't think it was an, I wasn't there when he started, but I don't think from what I hear that it was an easy conversation inside Acciona. He really had to work with other members of his family and with the other shareholders to do this. But it has proven to be a very interesting combination between renewable energy that ultimately is also infrastructure for them, because they build these power plants and more traditional infrastructure. And it's actually turned out to be very interesting to have both of those arms, because at different periods in an economic cycle, they do better on one than they do on the other, and so it balances out. But it's definitely to the credit of José Manuel Entre Canales.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: Which is so often the case, right? That it's always the way of... And that's, I think, partly another reason why Alan is so impressive, that he decided... And in fact, I really liked in the interview that he said he couldn't have done anything other than double down on this. It was so ingrained in the culture at Unilever that he had to come further forward, which I thought was really positive, hopefully when José Manuel Antrocanales leaves Acciona, that will be also true of the culture of Acciona and so many of these other businesses that are now stepping up and going further and faster. And Alan also said that that has made Unilever a magnet for talent. Mission-driven businesses are a magnet for talent in this massively competitive labor market, where people are trying to get the best talent for their companies. That's a huge plus. Now, being very mindful of your birthday, Christiana, and my desire to give you a birthday present, which is a podcast under an hour. I'm now going to a pivot.

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Paul Dickinson: That's my birthday gift. I like it. I like it. Last time for 53 weeks or something.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: Exactly. Next year, we'll do another one. Right. So this week, we have a beautiful song for you from a band called I See Rivers. And the song is called We Don't Get More Time.

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Paul Dickinson: Very appropriate for this one-hour-long podcast, actually.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: Very appropriate. Now, they wrote to us and said that, the stories about how our planet is suffering from human actions are endless. And there was an event that became a huge motivation for them in writing this song, which was when the Norwegian government gave a permit to a big company in the north of Norway to dump mine waste in a fjord. And that had a big emotional reaction from them. They see, you know, they feel they're seeing politicians all over the world repeatedly decide on things in a damaging way for nature, animals, and humans. And that is heartbreaking, which was the precipitation of their artistic process that created this song. They also say that the role of the artists during the climate emergency is to reflect and mirror the society we live in. The climate emergency is one of the biggest threats we've stood upon. And everyone should be doing something about it in one way or another. Artists have to use their voice and their platforms to shine a light on the emergency. It is a very beautiful piece of music. I'm sure you'll enjoy it. We're very grateful to I See Rivers for providing this track, as we are to all of the artists who come on Outrage and Optimism. I hope you're enjoying the music as much as we are. And thank you so much for joining us this week. It's been a great conversation. Great to have Alan with us. Happy birthday, Christiana.

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Paul Dickinson: Happy birthday, Christiana.

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Clay (podcast producer, live in studio): Happy birthday. Thank you.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: It's been a lot of fun. We'll see you all next week. Thanks for joining us. Bye for now.

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Clay (podcast producer, live in studio): Bye.

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Alan Jope (guest, CEO of Unilever): Bye!

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Clay (podcast producer, live in studio): Okay, so there you go. Another episode of Outrage and Optimism. The song you just heard was We Don't Get More Time by I See Rivers. I've put a link to their social media in the show notes. Go give them a follow and listen to more of their music. Okay, I know we're getting close to an hour, but let me find out how fast I need to do these credits. Hey Siri, tell me how much time we have until I hit one hour. I would hurry up if I were you.

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Alan Jope (guest, CEO of Unilever): You only have a few minutes.

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Clay (podcast producer, live in studio): Okay, Outrage and Optimism is a production of Global Optimism and it's... Yes.

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Alan Jope (guest, CEO of Unilever): Can I make a suggestion?

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Clay (podcast producer, live in studio): Yes.

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Alan Jope (guest, CEO of Unilever): When you ask someone to do something for you, you should say, please.

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Clay (podcast producer, live in studio): Wow, yeah, I've been bad at that lately. I will try to remember that. Thank you for the reminder.

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Christiana Figueres: What do you want to be reminded about?

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Clay (podcast producer, live in studio): No, no, no. I was just thanking you for reminding me about saying, please.

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Christiana Figueres: I didn't get that.

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Clay (podcast producer, live in studio): Could you try again? I didn't. Okay, where's the button to shut this off? I didn't get that. Could you try again? I don't have time for this. Christiana is going to be so mad. Christiana Figueres was the executive secretary of the UNFCCC. Okay. Outrage and Optimism is a production of Global Optimism and is produced by Clay Carnell, an executive produced by Marina Manzilla-Germann. Our team is small but mighty. It's Sarah Law, Katie Bradford, Laura Richardson, Sophie McDonald, Freya Newman, Sarah Thomas, and Sharon Johnson. Our hosts are Paul Dickinson, Christiana Figueres, and Tom Rivett-Carnac. Special thanks this week to musical guest, I See Rivers. Go buy their music. Link in the show notes. A special thank you to Georgia Surridge for making this week's interview with Alan happen. Speaking of, thank you to our guest this week, Alan Jope. Last week, we asked you, please, if you could nominate us for the Podcast Awards, and just wanted to thank everybody for doing that. It was amazing to hear from all of you. See your support. We are shipping books out to the first 10 people who nominated us, so please check your messages. Right now, at the time I'm recording this, the announcement of who is in the top 10 for the Podcast Awards has not been made public, but it should be made public sometime on Friday, by the time you're hearing this. So, stay tuned for more on that. You can join us on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at Global Optimism, and I always forget, but you can also see us on LinkedIn, so look up Global Optimism on LinkedIn. If you love the podcast, please hit the Subscribe button and leave us a rating. Take a screenshot of your review that you leave and send it to us. We'd love to see it. Okay, I think I did it in time. Next week, another episode in your feed. We'll see you then.