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261: How to Live a Good Life in a Climate Crisis - Introduction

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About this episode

In episode 1 of our How To Live A Good Life in a Climate Crisis series, the Outrage + Optimism hosts introduce you to their new mini series and discuss how they define a good life. 

For the next few weeks, Tom, Paul and Christiana will explore questions that you, the listeners, have asked us to address, around what it means to live a good life at this pivotal moment, facing uncertainty and judgments. They’ll talk about whether we should fly, what we eat, how to enjoy a meaningful career and whether or not we should have children.

This free ranging discussion attempts to shine a light on the interplay between the largest issue facing humanity - the climate crisis - and the difference each of us can make. 

Although this series concerns itself with individual action, part of our role is to call on governments and other institutions to precipitate systemic change. 

Please don’t expect any right or wrong answers! Tom, Paul and Christiana will not prescribe you the ingredients for the perfect life! They will share their own insights, stories and struggles. And after listening there’s a good chance you might feel more confused - we only hope you’ll be confused at a deeper level.  

We’d love to hear what you think. 


NOTES AND RESOURCES

Understanding Ireland Citizen Visions of a Good Life 2030
Fifty Ways to Start a Climate Conversation
Climate Week NYC: Love is the Answer


Learn more about the Paris Agreement.

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Full Transcript


Tom: [00:00:05] Hello and welcome to Outrage + Optimism. I'm Tom Rivett-Carnac.

Christiana: [00:00:08] I'm Christiana Figueres.

Paul: [00:00:10] And I'm Paul Dickinson.

Tom: [00:00:11] Today we kick off our special series, How to Live a Good Life in the Climate Crisis. These are the episodes that you, the listeners, have been asking us for for so long. How do we grapple with the big issues we are all facing in our lives, and how do we live the best possible life we can, while the climate crisis is unfolding all around us. We'll be digging into these issues and more. Thanks so much for being here. Okay, friends. So this is very exciting. We're now launching our brand new series on how to live a good life in a climate crisis. And we are just going to take a bit of time in this episode to introduce what we're going to be trying to do over the course of the next few weeks, because this is something a little bit different for us. We're going to be taking a break from our regular programming, where we go through each week and look at the news. Although we might be popping up in your feed with the odd bonus if something very significant happens. But for the next few weeks, Outrage + Optimism is going to be the three of us spending time trying to answer the questions that you, the listeners, have elevated to us that you're really struggling with around what does it mean to live a good life at this pivotal time in human history, when there's so much expected of us and so much at stake and there's judgments and there's uncertainties. So what would you both like to say to welcome the listener to this new series? And by the way, we're together. Load More
Christiana: [00:01:28] That's exactly right, that's the novelty.

Tom: [00:01:31] We are in the same room. 

Paul: [00:01:34] This is so kind of surreal. I'm kind of like trying to work out, first of all, if I want to kind of make a human noise of any kind, I can't do the mute button.

Christiana: [00:01:42] Yeah. It is so nice to be in the same room. We've taken advantage of a trip of mine to London to all of us be in the same room, and it really does make a difference.

Tom: [00:01:51] Oh, it's so nice.

Christiana: [00:01:52] It really does. And we're doing many recordings back to back, but it's just so much more fun.

Tom: [00:02:01] This is how we used to do it in the early days, the pre-COVID days when we started Outrage + Optimism, we would tie it into our travel.

Paul: [00:02:05] You lived in the UK.

Christiana: [00:02:07] When we, do you remember when we locked ourselves into a bathroom.

Tom: [00:02:08] We recorded one in a toilet, that's right.

Christiana: [00:02:10] That's right, exactly.

Tom: [00:02:12] That's European definition, not US definition, yeah.

Christiana: [00:02:15] No, we locked ourselves in the bathroom.

Paul: [00:02:16] The good old days, I remember when we was locked in a toilet. We was happy then. 

Tom: [00:02:19] And we rented a flat in Barcelona, do you remember for a week, to do a recording and half of them didn't record. 

Christiana: [00:02:23] Yeah, yeah.

Paul: [00:02:23] And it was a very weird flat.

Tom: [00:02:24] Yeah.

Paul: [00:02:24] And you spent all your time with the microphones that didn't record anything anyway.

Tom: [00:02:27] That's right, yeah.

Christiana: [00:02:27] Yeah, and trying to edit things.

Tom: [00:02:28] Anyway, that's not what we're here to talk about, is it, we're here to talk about how to live.

Paul: [00:02:31] No one cares at all about all of that.

Tom: [00:02:32] How to live a good life in a climate crisis. And we're going to be going episode by episode, looking at things that you, the listener, have raised as critical issues for us. So what do you both want to say, why are we doing this?

Christiana: [00:02:42] Well, the first thing that I would like to say about that is that there is no aspiration or intent to tell people what to do or to tell people what to think.

Paul: [00:02:52] Hear hear.

Tom: [00:02:52] I thought that's why Paul was here actually.

Paul: [00:02:53] I've been telling people what to do all my life, but everyone's ignored me. But no, but very specifically on this, on this point, no, it's a serious point. 

Christiana: [00:03:01] No, it really is very important to know that there's no one answer, that everyone has different views, that there are different lived experiences, that there are different circumstances, and that one of the most important things for everyone who works on climate, biodiversity, or any other of these challenges is precisely to recognize the diversity of opinion and positions and to be very, very open to that and not to be judgmental. So, so we are very, very conscious about that, and we're conscious about the fact that these are all dilemmas that we ourselves struggle with. It's not like we've figured it out and and we're going to tell anyone or everyone what to do. It is very much a series of dilemmas that we're also struggling with and for which we have maybe imperfect answers or maybe no answers.

Tom: [00:03:55] Ways of thinking about them at least, yeah. And and I wonder whether it's also worth just making a point, in the climate movement, we're often stuck in what appears to be a dichotomy between is it about individual action, or is it about systemic change in the system. And sometimes people have quite powerful and heated and emotional arguments with each other about where the solution lies. And given that in this series, we're going to be digging into what the individual can do sometimes to affect the system, but at the level of the individual, maybe we should start off by just addressing that question and why we're taking that framing.

Christiana: [00:04:32] Yes. That and that is also very unusual for us right. Because very often or most often we take a systemic or policy or big picture finance view of things. And so for us to, to, to really have the clarity of focus to say, right, these episodes are going to be as individuals. How do how do we as individuals see these dilemmas. That's, that's unusual for us. And we've been drawn to this because, A we know that it's important, but also because we know that listeners are struggling with this. And and you've sent us in absolutely brilliant comments and questions. And so this is very much of a conversation. It is not a speech. It's not a declaration. It's a conversation that right now we're having the conversation among the three of us. But more than that, it's a conversation with all our listeners.

Tom: [00:05:29] Yeah, totally.

Paul: [00:05:31] And just a quick response to your kind of like, you know, is it about the individual or is it about the system, you know, is the ocean.

Tom: [00:05:35] Is it Paul, is it?

Paul: [00:05:36] Is the ocean, is the ocean about the drops of water, or is the ocean about the ocean. And it's about both, isn't it. I mean, without the drops of water, you haven't got the ocean, but without the ocean, the drops of water wouldn't be there either. So I think that almost any question that sort of says, is it this or is it that, you know, the answer is it's both or it's yes or it's let's or we can. Yes we can.

Tom: [00:05:55] Nice, to coin a phrase. And actually just just one moment on that because Christiana, you and I spent a long time thinking about this question when we wrote our book, The Future We Choose a few years ago, and we were often asked, what can people do. And we came up, if you remember, with this three levels and I think it relates here.

Christiana: [00:06:13] Correction, you came up.

Tom: [00:06:14] Oh, I think of it as something we came up with, okay.

Paul: [00:06:18] Oh, no no no no no no no no no no, it was you.

Christiana: [00:06:20] I bowed to you, go ahead.

Tom: [00:06:21] Either that, or you're disavowing yourself of it.

Christiana: [00:06:23] No no no no no, go ahead.

Paul: [00:06:25] What do you think, it must be good if it's in the book. It's a great book by the way.

Tom: [00:06:28] Thank you Paul I appreciate it, A Beautiful Corporation is very nice as well.

Paul: [00:06:30] Well, you know, we're all such lovely people and I think I'm going to throw up but carry on.

Tom: [00:06:33] Okay, so the first level is how you show up. This is important, right. The way that an individual shows up and faces a big challenge affects the way that challenge is seen. So showing up and saying it's impossible, there's no way we can achieve it. Everything's too difficult. It's too far away. That is going to feed into what is Paul's favourite comment, if you think you can or you think you can't, you're probably right. This is a moment in which we have a responsibility to show up with a stubborn and determined form of optimism, to drive the systemic outcome that is still within our grasp. And all scientists tell us that. So that's the piece that starts inside you. And then the next piece, which is about your own personal responsibility, your own footprint in the world. And some people say that that's not important. It's not meaningful. It's meaningful for two reasons. The first is that 80% of the problem is caused by less than 20% of the people, including probably most people, listening to this podcast. Most people listening to this podcast probably have a disproportionate footprint on the environment, and we have a responsibility to get on top of that and drive it down. And we can do it. If we say by the end of this decade, our emissions need to be halved on a personal level, that's enough time to make changes in your life to really do it.

Tom: [00:07:44] That's the first reason. The second reason is that taking that action, taking responsibility will make you feel like you're part of a great generational endeavor where you're taking action and then going further and leading you into action that takes you further into, into the world. And that's the third part, and that's how you touch power in the world. So you need to map how you touch power. You're an employee. You might have a pension, you might sit on a school board. All of those different roles are relevant and needed, and we're going to be working on all three levels of that system from inside you in your attitude to what your personal footprint is to how you touch power. So in this series, we're going to talk about things like how to have a meaningful career in a climate crisis, what you can eat, should you get on a plane, should you have children. These sorts of questions operate at all different levels of that system, and we would defend very strongly the idea that all levels are needed to get us to the outcome that we want.

Christiana: [00:08:39] The other thing that I think, so I agree, even though you came up with those three, I definitely agree with that. And I think it's a very good, conceptual framework to think about this. The, the other thing that I think we should be very upfront with our listeners about in our discussing these issues that have to do with our daily life and our human behaviour is that we are not perfectionists, and and that is our bias in, in, you know, in, in the wonderful series, Tom, that you did about momentum versus perfection. And we explored those. But I think we were also pretty clear about the fact that we don't expect perfection from people. And I think we should be very clear about that.

Tom: [00:09:31] Totally right, we're not perfect ourselves.

Christiana: [00:09:33] We're not perfect ourselves. Except with, except Paul.

Tom: [00:09:36] Except Paul, yeah.

Christiana: [00:09:38] Paul however.

Paul: [00:09:38] Oh no I'm not. But I do have 2 or 3 seconds where.

Tom: [00:09:41] Yeah, yeah.

Christiana: [00:09:43] But we also don't tolerate irresponsibility right. And I think it's very important to set up those two as being the two extremes on this gamut that we don't hold ourselves or anybody up to perfection, but we do not tolerate ignoring the climate crisis or being irresponsible about it. That is not something that we could partake of. So what we're exploring in this series is what is the space in between there, which can be called, constant improvement. It can be called momentum toward progress. It can be called.

Tom: [00:10:23] Imperfect tinkering.

Christiana: [00:10:23] Imperfect tinkering, best effort, you know, whatever way. But and obviously, the trend that we want to move toward is toward more and more responsibility and, and, and more and more rigor in our own lives. But it is a trend. It is not an outcome expectation right away.

Tom: [00:10:46] So you wouldn't agree that flight shame is, we're getting into it now, let me ask you one question and then we'll get into some of the, is flight shame a good thing?

Christiana: [00:10:54] I don't agree with it.

Tom: [00:10:56] You don't agree with it. Interesting okay. That we will get into in the episode on flying, okay. Tiny teaser there. Right, so I think as we're talking about what it means to live a good life in a climate crisis.

Christiana: [00:11:07] What is a good life?

Tom: [00:11:07] We should start with what is a good life?

Christiana: [00:11:10] Paul, what is a good life for you?

Tom: [00:11:11] Paul, what is a good life for Mr. Paul Dickinson?

Paul: [00:11:14] Look, I don't know. And it's something that all humans have been wrestling with for all time and actually probably all creatures in their different ways, wrestle with it. There are things that work for me, you know, which are to do with, you know, my my friends, my family, my, my, my travel, you know, going out in nature and sort of pull up, some of the first of many brilliant listener comments, I'm basically answering your question by going a question back to you.

Tom: [00:11:38] I see what you did there, by the way, yeah.

Paul: [00:11:40] Christiana, you moved to speak?

Christiana: [00:11:42] We asked what is a good life for Paul Dickinson?

Tom: [00:11:45] Yeah, we want to know about the other ones, but we're going to do these first, come on.

Paul: [00:11:49] I think you know it when you experience it. I can think of a few years ago I had a not very good year. And I think and that's very unusual for me to say that. And it was correlated to me being overly engaged with, issues that I couldn't resolve. And essentially, if I had been more detached, I could have had a perfectly good year. So that's just one thing. Avoid excessive attachment and, you know, have some boundaries in your existence. That would be that would be, I think, an important part of a good life. But in all seriousness, getting time in nature. The cliche, whether that's a park or just some trees or whether it's, you know, big nature is a huge thing for me. And I think, you know, spending time with, with, people who you can learn from, who you know, you enjoy being with. And for me, also spending time on my own, which is kind of a little bit important because I'm a huge consumer of music, and I sort of enjoy the living experience in its many different ways although I'm a restless soul. How do you answer the same question, my dear friends?

Tom: [00:12:54] Nice answer. Christiana?

Christiana: [00:12:55] Oh well, okay. What is a good life? Well, we could each of us write a treatise on that, right. But if we are to summarize it, I would say and sorry, it's a question of a good life in a time of climate crisis.

Tom: [00:13:14] Right.

Christiana: [00:13:14] Right. So those two things overlapping.

Paul: [00:13:17] Would I have given a different answer with or without that. I think it's the same answer, isn't it?

Christiana: [00:13:20] Is it, is it for you? That's a good question.

Paul: [00:13:23] Honestly, if I, if I just leap in, I think if there wasn't a climate crisis, you might have heard more high carbon things in there, but they're not there because there's a climate crisis on.

Tom: [00:13:34] So minimizing harm is part of it for you then?

Paul: [00:13:36] Yeah I guess, I guess. Sorry, Christiana?

Christiana: [00:13:39] Okay. So for me, a good life in a time or in the time of climate crisis is having love as the foundation of who I am and what I do, and having purpose be the motivation of how I engage with the world, and ensuring that all of that is not only not causing more damage, but actually actively restoring the innate resilience that we have inside of us, and that nature has, because we're part of the same thing. So for me, it goes beyond not the the not causing the harm, but truly being dedicated to go beyond that and restore the resilience that I'm convinced is innate in life.

Tom: [00:14:39] Love that. Yeah. So I would agree with large parts of that. And I would say the first is totally qualitative. I think it was G.K. Chesterton who said the world will not perish for lack of wonders, but for lack of wonder. The ability to enjoy your days and appreciate the incredible beauty of this planet that we're privileged to live on at this moment that may feel damaged and destroyed to so many of us who are so aware of the issues, but it's still intact in many ways as well, and still has so much of the ecological web of life still there. And appreciating that and enjoying it is a big part of that, along with qualities of relationship and kids and love and family and friends and all those great things, of course, are fundamental. And then I think there's two parts. One is minimizing harm. I do think that's important. You have to have responsibility towards that. But it can't all be about the downside risk. Living a good life also has to be about taking risks to make big leaps towards the solutions to being brave and taking opportunities where you see them, and putting your life to a certain degree in service of trying to find the big answers. And that's different to how life would what a good life would normally look like outside of the climate crisis. It necessitates and it mandates taking those leaps and trying to create the change.

Christiana: [00:15:52] Yep, yep.

Paul: [00:15:53] Can I offer just one reflection on the G.K. Chesterton quote? I don't know if you've ever heard this formulation, but I think it's quite funny, to have what you want, is that a goal or to want what you have, is that a goal.

Tom: [00:16:04] Yeah.

Paul: [00:16:04] You know, same concept just in reverse. But we have around us, you know, I mean, some people listening to this program will have the most fantastic problems that give them the best possible excuse to, to to be having, you know, a really tough time and to and to warrant all of our sympathies. But for many of us, you know, we have what I think Gandhi called was the the true wealth, which is health. And, you know, if you have that and you have this world around you and all the opportunities we have, there is a school of thought that sort of says that art of life is to be able to appreciate the genius of that. I, my my beloved mother, spent the last 20 years of her life or more bed bound, unable to move at all. And every time I walk 3 or 4 steps, I just sort of think how lucky I am, you know, because I saw somebody I really loved not able to walk.

Christiana: [00:16:50] Yeah, so true.

Tom: [00:16:50] You were very, you're very, I remember you telling me about that over the years many times you're very good at bearing in mind the headache that you don't know you don't have, if you see what I mean. So we were also going to go and hear some of the amazing things sent in by listeners. Why don't we start with you, Christiana?

Christiana: [00:17:05] Well, when we announced that we were doing this series and we invited listeners to send in comments or questions, we I was really touched by, A, the number of comments and questions and recorded messages that we received. But right off the bat, I was really touched by the fact that some listeners really resonated with the fact that we're even asking this question.

Paul: [00:17:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christiana: [00:17:32] And so Claire Seda wrote, I love the framing. How often we forget that we can still live wonderful, fulfilling, love filled good lives in the midst of and despite climate catastrophe. We got a voicemail from Mitchell Leckner in Montreal and he says, I literally got chills down my spine when you mentioned a few of the items you were thinking of talking about. So I hope you do talk about them because it completely described me. And then he goes on to say, is it okay to fly, should I change my diet, what about my job, I have two kids, I want to talk to them, but I don't want to freak them out. And so it's it's so wonderful that our listeners are honestly struggling with the same dilemmas that we're struggling with.

Tom: [00:18:24] Same things. I also really appreciated what Laura Costello sent in, and she's actually done a piece of work to look, she's from Ireland, explores what really matters in Irish citizen visions and definitions of a good life. And what she found was that nothing matters more to people than feeling connected to themselves and to nature. And it made me think of that episode we did a while ago with John Marshall, do you remember who talked about how to communicate and love, love is the key. That's what cuts through, love for people, love for place, love for kids. That's what cuts through to people.

Christiana: [00:18:54] You know, Laura also said that they had just published a report. So I think we can ask Clay to put in the.

Tom: [00:18:59] Whack it in the show notes.

Christiana: [00:19:00] In the in the show notes, because I think many of our listeners said, oh, yes, this really relates. So we'll just have a list there of everything that can be used as reference.

Tom: [00:19:09] I also one of the other ones that I really liked was from Katherina Tesar from Chile. So we actually have a voicemail of that. But she talked a lot about how it is to be hypocritical and how challenging it is, and how we're all hypocritical at this moment. So let's take a listen to that.

Katherina Tesar: [00:19:27] Hello, Outrage + Optimism. My name is Kathy, I live in Chile and my question to you is how to inspire people by being a podcaster or an activist or anything, while not being perfect yourself. For example, I drive a car sometimes, I even eat meat sometimes. Or now and then I buy stuff that's wrapped in plastic, or I don't manage to recycle every single thing I buy, for instance. So how to serve as an inspiration for other people and not feel like a hypocrite or a liar? How do you cope with the pressure of being perfect, and how to live a life that feels true to your words?

Tom: [00:20:11] I think one of the answers to Katherina there is that you can't project a sense of being perfect. None of us are perfect, to live inside this system is to a certain extent, to be a hypocrite. And painful as that is, you kind of need to embrace it. Paul, what have you got?

Paul: [00:20:25] I'm, well, I just I'm overwhelmed by one thing I'm noticing about this whole thing, which is we're talking holistically about how we live our lives. I know, Christiana, you've been a huge advocate for, and we do, we are huge fans of the On Being podcast with Krista Tippett. But I think this notion of us looking at our lives in the round holistically is so rare and so unusual for us. And it's such a pleasure and a privilege to see that our listeners are also equally fascinated by these same challenges, and we have the ability to take them on without getting it locked in something quite technical, which is what we often need to do, but it's great to be away from that.

Tom: [00:21:03] But that has to be done within context. Now you wanted to bring something else from listeners?

Paul: [00:21:07] Well, it was one particular one, it really challenged me in a good way. And I want to challenge you both. Sam Ward, you know, we talk about Outrage + Optimism, that's the name of our podcast. Sam works at Climate Cymru or Climate Wales. And he said, my question today is about frustration and acceptance and how should the two interact. So he says, at least as I see it, frustration could be distilled into wanting things to be different to what they are. And obviously that's a key part of fuelling our work. But then spiritual teachings or spiritual teachers will advocate for acceptance as a really powerful tool to mitigate some of this tension. So, you know, how do how do you balance those two?

Christiana: [00:21:43] Do you balance them, or do you substitute one for the other?

Paul: [00:21:49] Substitute acceptance for frustration? Is there a role for frustration?

Christiana: [00:21:55] And which you can't which you can't do overnight obviously, right. But at least for me, I hope that I am on a path of everyday less frustration and and more acceptance.

Paul: [00:22:09] Okay, time out here for the listeners. There is the most wonderful smile that actually grows on Christiana's face as she says that. And I think, I think I detect you in that journey, and I, and I kind of I think we're all on that journey in different ways, but I really salute you for sort of consciously taking it on.

Christiana: [00:22:28] But I salute him for actually finding the words to express something that is very, very deep and very complex. And he's just crystallized it so beautifully.

Tom: [00:22:38] Thank you for raising that one. And I think that it seems like a dichotomy, doesn't it, either, either you are pushing for change, in which case you're frustrated, but how do you do both? How are you able to step into that place where you really want that change? And you talked, I think at some other time, Paul, about the role of sort of detachment and connection to the outcome. We have to find a way for us, because the other thing I would say about all of this and living a good life, is that one of the things I've seen is that the mental health of people who work on podcasts, or people who work on.

Paul: [00:23:10] Freudian slip, leave it in Clay, leave it in.

Tom: [00:23:14] The mental health of people who work on climate change is often quite poor. And I think that's partly because working on this great, consequential, enormous challenge that seems to have no resolution and continuing to strive for this thing that we never seem to be out from under this Sisyphean task of more and more and more is a really difficult place to live, and we need to both be fundamentally committed to that outcome, but also able to enjoy the day and able to enjoy ourselves and somehow step back, even though we have the knowledge of this incredibly pivotal moment in history. And I think one of the things that I would love to do with this series is to kind of put our arms around that, because I really witness people can really work themselves into a very difficult place because they care so much about the outcome, that that connection to the outcome becomes a kind of attachment, which is good, but that attachment can become very problematic in their relationship to it. Maybe you want to speak a bit about that?

Christiana: [00:24:10] Or in their relationship to other people.

Tom: [00:24:12] Or in their relationship to other people, yeah, in our relationships, I mean, I've struggled with that myself, yeah.

Paul: [00:24:16] But, you know, if I also quote my dear beloved mother, about 25 years ago, I said, I think I'm going to spend the rest of my life working on climate change, she said, it's so big, Paul. Now, she was kind of giving me a little bit of a warning, but I would say in hindsight that my experience is the bigger the better, actually. Maybe it doesn't suit everybody, but I've, you know, I had I love the idea of an enormous challenge. I think it's incredibly exciting. And when we go to the movies or something like that and we lose ourselves in the dreams, I mean, there are the most wonderful films about the tiniest aspects of life, but we are also drawn to the sort of the spectacle of, of the, of the big issue or the, you know, the, the save the world movie or whatever is a whole genre. So I think we have to guard against that feeling of kind of hopelessness. But there is also a sort of beautiful, you know, I don't think blades of grass think, well, I'm only one blade of grass. It's kind of like I am green.

Christiana: [00:25:09] Well, I mean, isn't this whole series about that, Tom? Isn't this whole series about, putting our arms, as you said, around the climate crisis that is so much larger than any of us, or in fact, even than all of us put together. And at the same time, finding those opportunities for us as individuals to make a difference, to make a difference for our life, for our families life, for, you know, whatever sphere of influence we're in, if that's the town, the city, the country, the global, whatever level of system you want to work in. But it's about finding that interplay between the large, large issue, the largest issue that humanity has ever faced, and what can I as an individual do. And that's that's the interplay that the whole series is about.

Tom: [00:26:08] Yeah, totally. Great. So I mean, I think this was going to be a relatively shorter introduction to get people to understand what we're going to be talking about, but is there anything else we should share?

Christiana: [00:26:17] Yes, yes yes, there's something else. 

Tom: [00:26:17] Yes there is, there's lots more. 

Paul: [00:26:19] Who's first? Me. Me. Me.

Christiana: [00:26:20] Okay, okay, okay. Go for it.

Paul: [00:26:22] Okay. Well, I just want to bring in Alison Wines. And she said she quotes research from Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson. Which is that the most effective thing any individual can do about the climate crisis is to talk about it and to try and tackle this she's created a cheat sheet called 50 Ways to Start Climate Conversations. But I just wanted to use that to say, I hope, I hope that's what will.

Tom: [00:26:43] Show notes. 

Christiana: [00:26:43] Show notes.

Paul: [00:26:43] Show notes. I hope that's what will also come out of this discussion. And this series is that we'll help, you know, fertilise lots of climate conversations with all of our listeners around the world, you know, forever and ever. Amen. He said in a non-religious way.

Christiana: [00:26:57] Okay, I have two questions that were sent in by Jo Hook. And each of you is going to answer one, one of you will answer one, and one of you will answer the other question. Okay.

Paul: [00:27:09] Yikes, okay good.

Christiana: [00:27:09] They're really difficult questions.

Paul: [00:27:12] No problem.

Tom: [00:27:12] So you're thinking of reading them rather than answering them.

Christiana: [00:27:14] Here we go. I'm going to read them. And one of you will answer.

Tom: [00:27:18] It's good to see this leadership from you.

Christiana: [00:27:19] All right, okay.

Paul: [00:27:20] Actually, I got to take a call. So Tom is going to answer both of these questions.

Christiana: [00:27:23] Jo Hook says, how do we encourage more of our friends and family to undergo behaviour change? Which one of you wants to take that one?

Paul: [00:27:35] I would like to hear the other one first.

Christiana: [00:27:37] No you can't.

Tom: [00:27:39] Paul, I will I will give you the choice. Which one do you want? You choose now.

Paul: [00:27:43] What choice have I got?

Tom: [00:27:44] You have to choose now or jump into the abyss and work out what the next one is.

Paul: [00:27:49] I'll take the next one.

Christiana: [00:27:50] Okay.

Tom: [00:27:50] Okay. Read the question again.

Christiana: [00:27:52] How do we encourage more of our friends and family to undergo behaviour change?

Tom: [00:27:57] So I think that this is a classic place where, you have to be, committed to the process, but you have to sort of let go of the outcome. You can't control other people. We have to provide an opportunity and an on ramp for others to step into lifestyle changes, because it makes sense to them and is connected to how they see meaning in their own lives. It's not possible, in my experience, to guilt trip or shame people into a behaviour change that is consistent and that really sticks, and they will end up resenting you, and you might risk the relationship. And if that's someone close to you, or if it's someone in your community that can have a really significant cost. But what I would do instead is I would point to the things that can really be positive in the future we want to create, a world where nature has been restored and the insects are back and kids are breathing clean air, and then you connect that back down to a day to day life that gets more meaning by taking steps to deal with the challenges in front of us and be responsible. And then you have to let go, because that will mean something different to that person than it does to you. And it might mean that they change their career and do something amazing, or it might mean they stop flying on holiday. I think as long as it gets internalized, it will manifest in a change of behavior. But we can be committed to the process. But we have to be detached from the form.

Christiana: [00:29:20] Paul, what do you think about that answer? Is it a thumbs up or a thumbs down?

Paul: [00:29:24] It's a.

Tom: [00:29:26] It's like a Roman, you know, sort of like is he going to be executed in the arena.

Christiana: [00:29:28] It's only thumbs up or thumbs down. That's all you get.

Paul: [00:29:30] I would say thumbs up, yeah.

Christiana: [00:29:31] Thumbs up. Two thumbs up.

Tom: [00:29:33] All right, okay.

Christiana: [00:29:34] Tom, good job. Okay. Paul.

Paul: [00:29:36] Oh, no.

Christiana: [00:29:37] Are you ready?

Paul: [00:29:38] No. 

Tom: [00:29:38] Change of plan, take the first question.

Christiana: [00:29:39] Have a little, you know, gulp of water. Now, here we go.

Paul: [00:29:43] Nervous.

Christiana: [00:29:44] How do we cope living around people, contacts, as well as friends and families who lead high carbon lifestyles.

Paul: [00:29:56] And the answer to that is with a smile and a sense of keen fascination and interest and a knowledge that in many, many cases, and I have experienced this myself, the more, you know, you kind of cut carbon from your life, the more your quality of life improves. And to think of how much fun it's going to be when your friends have an even better quality of life, when they move away from some of their high carbon lifestyles. But to be able to not judge because judging people is not necessarily the route to a good life, in my view, because it's it's good to be able to reflect upon what people are doing and to be very mindful regarding what people are doing. But when you move towards judging them, you sort of put yourself in a position that I think is the wrong position on the board. This is a two dimensional board, but you don't want to put your own chess piece in a cupboard judging the other chess pieces. That's not how you play the game of chess.

Christiana: [00:31:07] Okay, Tom, thumbs up, thumbs down?.

Tom: [00:31:09] I think that was a great answer. Thumbs up. What do you think?

Christiana: [00:31:11] Thumbs up.

Paul: [00:31:12] Oh, two thumbs up! Yay!

Tom: [00:31:14] You did it!

Christiana: [00:31:15] Okay.

Tom: [00:31:16] I'm now scanning through the questions, looking for a really difficult one for Christiana, but sadly, I didn't prepare one. Yeah.

Christiana: [00:31:21] There you go.

Tom: [00:31:21] This season has been pre-recorded, which we announced at the beginning. We're all in London for a few days, recording all of the episodes that you're about to hear over the next few weeks. So that does mean that more comments will not be able to be included in the episodes. But we still want to hear your comments. We're going to be responding to them on social media. We'll probably do a zoom dial in call when the series is over, so we can actually chat directly to listeners, and you can email us at podcast@GlobalOptimism.com. So please do engage. We'd love to hear what you think of this series. What's working for you. Anything else you'd like to hear included in future series. This is very much intended, as Christiana said, to be a dialogue and a conversation. It's not about perfection. It's about being together and working out how we can move forward and do the best at this critical time. So thank you.

Christiana: [00:32:04] No, I'm sorry, we can't.

Tom: [00:32:06] It's about perfection.

Christiana: [00:32:07] We can't end yet because you know what we haven't done? We haven't said what the episodes are about.

Tom: [00:32:12] I did actually earlier on, but you clearly weren't paying attention. Yeah, but I can do it again if you like. 

Paul: [00:32:17] That was so snarky, like, what is it like with Tom. I did, actually, but you weren't paying attention earlier.

Christiana: [00:32:23] Did you really?

Tom: [00:32:24] No, I did mention that. But let's go through them again. So good point, Christiana, and let's go through the episodes.

Paul: [00:32:28] That was a good point now.

Tom: [00:32:29] Excellent, very good point, yeah.

Paul: [00:32:31] Rowing back, rowing back.

Tom: [00:32:33] The first episode is going to be on rowing back on previous, no, the first episode. So we're going to do episodes on should you have children? How can you use your career to advance solutions to the climate crisis? What should you eat and what should your diet consist of? And also critically, and this is a difficult one. Should you get on a plane? How is flying in relation to the climate crisis? Is it still okay to get on a plane for private use? Is it okay to do it for work? All those other questions. That's what's coming in the next few weeks.

Christiana: [00:33:03] All right, all right. Now we can close.

Tom: [00:33:06] Now we can close. All right. So thank you, friends. Thank you listeners. Great to be on this journey. I think this will be a very fun few weeks. Regular programming is somewhat curtailed for the next few weeks, but we will be back with bonuses if if critical things happen. Other than that, enjoy. Stay in touch with us and we'll talk to you soon.

Paul: [00:33:24] Bye for now.

Christiana: [00:33:24] Bye.

Tom: [00:33:25] Bye.

Tom: [00:33:30] So a big thank you for listening and we hope you're enjoying this series. These episodes were sparked by questions from you, our wonderful listeners, so we'd really love to hear whether you feel like we've answered your questions, whether you now have even more questions. We'd love to keep this dialogue going with you online and in future episodes as we navigate these difficult issues. So please do get in touch and let us know what you think.

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