382: Madam Secretary-General?: Inside the UN’s Secret Leadership Race

[00:58] Christiana Figueres

And here is Ms. Climate Week.

[01:01] Tom Rivett-Carnac

And here's Ms. Climate Week, Helen Clarkson, is just coming in to say hello. Say hello.

[01:06] Helen Clarkson

We're on here, everyone, on the podcast.

[01:08] Tom Rivett-Carnac

How's Climate Week going, Helen?

[01:09] Helen Clarkson

It's going really well. Yes, lots of people here. Biggest ever number of events. Theme of the day is courage. Okay. You can riff on that. I don't know what your podcast theme is, but talk about courage.

[01:20] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Our theme is the courage that world leaders now need to show in electing the right woman secretary-general.

[01:24] Helen Clarkson

Oh yes, they do need that courage as well. That shouldn't be courage.

[01:27] Christiana Figueres

That's an easy one. Come on. Women don't start wars. That's a good soundbite for you.

[01:34] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Amazing. Such great work this week.

[01:35] Helen Clarkson

Thank you for hosting us.

[01:37] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Great. So that was, as you can see, we're in a noisy space because people are walking past, including the CEO of the Climate Group.

[01:43] News Clip

For the first time in 10 years, the hardest job in the world is up for grabs as United Nations Secretary-General, António Guterres, approaches the end of his second term.

[01:52] António Guterres

When I'm no longer secretary-general, be sure of this. Wherever I will be, I will keep championing the conviction that peace is possible.

[02:01] News Clip

The world's largest multilateral organization is at a crossroads and it is facing unprecedented financial challenges, among other things. The latest poll put former Costa Rican Vice President Rebeca Grynspan at the top with nine "encourage" votes.

[02:17] News Clip

The third round of straw polls has taken place.

[02:20] Tom Rivett-Carnac

The process, however, has yet to produce a final consensus candidate. OK, so Christiana, I mean, this has got to be one of the world's weirdest elections, doesn't it? It's a series of straw polls and then that's from the Security Council, but then the General Assembly votes. Now, this process to appoint a Secretary-General won't reach its conclusion until towards the end of the year. So we won't get a new Secretary-General this week. Can you take us through a little bit how what's the process by which the Secretary-General gets elected?

[02:52] Christiana Figueres

Well, as I think is commonly known, it is commonly not known how the Secretary-General gets elected because, oh, let me just start with the core. There are five permanent members of the Security Council.

[03:09] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Yeah.

[03:10] Christiana Figueres

Russia, the United States, China, and then from Europe as historical.

[03:16] Tom Rivett-Carnac

I've stayed in Europe, by the way.

[03:18] Christiana Figueres

Yeah, I know that you've stayed. So UK and France, just because those were the countries in the World War. So yes, since then, since the formation of the UN, those are the five permanent members of the Security Council. They are ultimately the five countries that choose the Secretary-General, because each of them has a veto, and no Secretary-General can get to be the Secretary-General and can get to the post if he or she has a veto. So they have to actually jump over five possible vetoes. Now, in order to...

[03:58] Tom Rivett-Carnac

That's a bonkers system, first of all, that five countries have a veto, someone's supposed to represent 193.

[04:02] Christiana Figueres

No, that's exactly the point. Then in order to, let's say, disguise that a little bit, because that is the truth, in order to disguise that a little bit, the 10 temporary members of the Security Council, that is a rotating system of 10 countries, they also get to have a vote, but they do not have veto power. So their vote is interesting, but not determinant. Then in order to disguise that a little bit further, all of the 193 countries that are members of the UN, get to officialize.

[04:43] Tom Rivett-Carnac

They get to vote, but only for one candidate?

[04:44] Christiana Figueres

They get to voice. They have a voice. Oh, I see. But they don't have a vote.

[04:48] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Okay.

[04:48] Christiana Figueres

So it is not transparent whatsoever. And furthermore, even if a secretary-general, a candidate gets a veto or two vetoes, you don't know who cast the veto. So it is quite a black box.

[05:06] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Right. So you can be going through the process, seeing that you're getting negative votes.

[05:10] Christiana Figueres

And not knowing from whom.

[05:11] Tom Rivett-Carnac

And that could be, it could be the temporary members, it could be the permanent members. If it's the permanent members, that's curtains for your candidacy, but you don't know.

[05:18] Christiana Figueres

You don't know. Well, sort of.

[05:20] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Yeah.

[05:20] Christiana Figueres

Because the straw polls, and we're already into the third.

[05:23] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Yeah.

[05:24] Christiana Figueres

The straw polls in the beginning are not color coded. At some point, and the next straw poll will be color coded, and it will take place after the General Assembly. Very likely, the first week of October. Then those 15 votes in the straw poll begin to be color coded, meaning the five permanent members get a color. One color, not five different. So in the straw poll, you will know how many permanent members are voting to either encourage or discourage or don't have an opinion, which are the three types of votes that they can cast. But even so, the system remains pretty...

[06:08] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Yeah, but that I suppose, if you're a candidate and you've got three permanent members discouraging you, you're probably going to drop out.

[06:15] Christiana Figueres

You better go home.

[06:15] Tom Rivett-Carnac

You better go home. Now, I do think and I feel a little bit like we've seen this movie before.

[06:20] Christiana Figueres

Have we?

[06:21] Tom Rivett-Carnac

But the movie which I feel like we've seen before is, there was great hope that it was going to be, I think it was one for seven billion at the time. Now, it's more like eight and that one was going to be a woman, because there has never been a woman in the 80-year history of the United Nations.

[06:34] Christiana Figueres

That is, by the way, one of the reasons why the UN is in such deep trouble. Right. Because it's always been in the hands of men.

[06:41] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Well, and it's not looking great. So we will get on to that in a minute and you'll of course talk to Susana Malcorra in a minute. But we are hoping very much it's well beyond time for us to have a female Secretary-General.

[06:55] Christiana Figueres

It's well beyond time and I would say as compared to 10 years ago, I think the political window of intolerance for yet another man has really focused the mind. And we do know that there are several of the permanent members that are actually very open, which they weren't last time, very open to having a woman. And that's a huge step forward.

[07:25] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Yeah.

[07:25] Christiana Figueres

Thanks in no small part to Susana Malcorra and her team. And we will talk to them.

[07:32] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Now, before we get to that point, this is all taking place at an extraordinary time. If you remember 10 years ago, and we'll talk about this in maybe a minute, when you were running to be Secretary-General, soon after Paris, this moment of collective coming together that Paris represented, the world felt so different, right? It felt like we were on the upswing of international collaboration. We had the Paris Agreement. We had the SDGs. We didn't have active wars in Western Europe. We didn't have AI threatening governance challenges. We didn't have so many funding crises. I'd love to hear you talk just a little bit about the challenge that's facing this person when they come in.

[08:09] Christiana Figueres

Yeah, I almost worry for the new Secretary-General, because she will be inheriting a world that is so fractured, that is so polarized. It is much more fractured now, not just geopolitically, but economically. We have a much, much bigger gap between the haves and the have-nots than we had 10 years ago. We have a much more fractured world geopolitically, in huge part because of the so-called leadership in the United States that has made it their mission in life to divide the world on all issues. And that you put on top of the difficulty of a global institution that is now defunded, that has always had a hard time trying to figure out what its role is other than, let's say UNDP always has a very clear role and WHO have a clear role. But the UN as a whole, very difficult because is it really the voice of the world when the Security Council can come and do as they wish? Right. Is the Secretary the famous book, right? And Susana refers to this book. Is the Secretary General a Secretary to some countries and not to all? Or is she a General? There are some military responsibilities, peacekeeping responsibilities that are attached. But in this time, it's very difficult to understand how you balance those, how you bring even a minimum number of countries together. And I was thinking as I was coming over here of Mark Carney's speech of middle powers. Is this a moment in which we really recognize that multilateralism as we used to have it is just no longer functioning? Or at least for the time being is not functioning and maybe we will get back to it. But is it the time for smaller alliances of countries that can agree on things and can move forward? Perhaps, but that makes the job of the Secretary-General very difficult.

[10:43] Tom Rivett-Carnac

100% and just one more thing on this. I mean, as you said, massively underfunded, right? The US owes 4.2 billion to the UN. And I mean, I remember earlier this year, turning off the escalator in UN headquarters, turning the lights off at a certain point. I mean, the budget crisis is astonishingly acute. Does the new Secretary-General even have the tools that she will need to right the ship?

[11:05] Christiana Figueres

Well, I think one unavoidable painful task is going to be to downsize the UN. And it's an unavoidable task just because of the budget.

[11:19] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Yeah.

[11:19] Christiana Figueres

Yes, you can think that maybe perhaps in a couple of years, the US, you know, becomes a responsible member of the world again and will begin to fund what happens from now until then.

[11:31] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Yeah.

[11:32] Christiana Figueres

And some people will say, well, the UN is too fat anyway, so we should put it on a diet. I would say it's not necessarily about how many people are there that can be more or less people. It's about the clarity of what the current contribution of the UN is in a world that is very different than where it was even 10 years ago, but certainly at the end of the last World War.

[12:02] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Right. And of course, Trump's rather peculiar Board of Peace. Now, do you think he did it because of the two meanings of the word board?

[12:12] Christiana Figueres

I can just roll my eyes is all I can do. I mean, so he announced it, right?

[12:17] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Yes.

[12:18] Christiana Figueres

You choose your spelling.

[12:20] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Your spelling.

[12:22] Christiana Figueres

That you want to. But you know, as many other things that we have seen, there's a big announcement and then nothing comes of it. I mean, yeah, exactly. It just goes on.

[12:31] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Now, we'll get into the interview just a sec. But just before we do, you ran 10 years ago. I had the privilege of supporting your campaign. Would love to just take a moment to think about many funny things happened on that campaign, along with some very serious things.

[12:42] Christiana Figueres

You will remember them.

[12:45] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Do you mind if I tell? I mean, you know the story I'm going to tell.

[12:47] Christiana Figueres

No, I have no idea. Well, it is probably Russia related.

[12:50] Tom Rivett-Carnac

It is a Russian related story. There was at one point, as we were going through these straw polls, when Christiana was doing pretty well, this rumor that started circulating that you were a US citizen. And of course, if you were a US citizen, you would have been prohibited from running, because you can't run to be the Secretary-General if you come from one of the five permanent members. And we discovered that this rumor was coming from the Russian embassy. And so you hatched a brilliant plan and went into the embassy with a sealed brown envelope to see Lavrov, the Foreign Minister. And in this meeting, you sat down and you said to him, Mr. Foreign Minister, I'd just like to say I'd really like to be Secretary-General, I'd like to offer you something. And you slid the brown envelope across the table towards him. And he jumped like, I don't know, like a car horn had gone off right behind him or something. And then he opened it and it was a certified copy of your green card. And to his credit, he laughed like a drain, is my memory of that.

[13:44] Christiana Figueres

And that laugh, I think, sealed the mystery.

[13:48] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Sealed the mystery. Caitlin, our producer is enjoying the story. I also remember that you had to go up in the General Assembly Hall and answer questions. And I remember the brief, the questions could have been about anything. And do you remember, there was a moment when you said, the question was about? Haiti. Haiti. Yeah. What were the details there? Because you really made, it probably could have been the moment you lost the race, but it was the moment you exerted your morals on that stage.

[14:21] Christiana Figueres

Yeah. And by the way, as Susana will explain, those debates in the UN General Assembly Hall were an innovation of 10 years ago and it was at least one way to air the opinion of those who were in the race. So the question that was put to all five of us, was related to the incredibly painful influence that the presence of the UN peacekeeping force had in Haiti. And there were all kinds of atrocities on women, especially. All kinds of atrocities on human rights that were caused by the members of the UN peacekeeping. And that has been left as a huge ghost of the UN. And it's, let's say, unintended consequences because no one in the UN gave a command that this should happen, but it happened. Yeah. And it has been a ghost in the closet of the UN for so many years. And the question was, should the UN ask for forgiveness?

[15:49] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Yeah, that was the bit that got you.

[15:50] Christiana Figueres

To the people of Haiti.

[15:52] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Yeah.

[15:53] Christiana Figueres

And I was the only one that raised my hand in public in the UN General Assembly to say, yes, the UN should ask for forgiveness. As you say, that probably sealed my fate, because those in the know understand that if the UN asks for forgiveness, that opens a whole bunch of liability, legal cases, and untold, I don't know, financial consequences that the UN would not be able to stand up to. So I understand that. It wasn't out of ignorance. It was a moral stand. How can you have incurred these atrocities and never stood up to them? Yeah.

[16:40] Tom Rivett-Carnac

That was an amazing moment. Thank you for telling that story. I think we should introduce your good friend, Susana Malcorra, who of course also stood to be Secretary-General 10 years ago. Would you like to say anything about Susana?

[16:52] Christiana Figueres

Well, she's such a good friend. She was at the time the chef de cabinet of the Secretary-General of Ban Ki-moon and had had several other roles in the UN. But especially because she had been the right-hand person to the Secretary-General, she really knew what was going on inside the UN. And she ran and ran very respectfully, always, always putting the mission of having a female Secretary-General above her own candidacy.

[17:34] Tom Rivett-Carnac

That's right. Yeah.

[17:35] Christiana Figueres

And I really respect her for that.

[17:37] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Yeah.

[17:37] Christiana Figueres

And she was so consequential that after all women lost the race, she started this GWL movement. That is why she has been working on this for 10 years for her credit.

[17:52] Tom Rivett-Carnac

It's so great. It's a great conversation. So let's go to that now.

[18:00] Christiana Figueres

Susana, I mean, it's so wonderful to see you, to talk to you, especially because I am sure in your mind, you have been remembering and replaying memories of almost exactly 10 years ago. In 2016, when you and I were both running for the position of Secretary General of the UN. Now, it was a very different world then. So my first question, if I could ask you and invite you to turn your memory back 10 years, why did you want to run?

[18:36] Susana Malcorra

Well, that is a question that many people ask me, why? I have to say, it didn't come in a moment. It was the product of a process. You know, I was at the UN for 12 years. I was first four years in the humanitarian world with World Food Program. Then I moved to peacekeeping operations for four years. And then I was the Chief of Staff, the Chief of the Cabinet of the Secretary General for four years. And during that process, I learned what the UN is all about. And I understood that this incredible construct, which is imperfect, which needs change, which needs improvement, updating, but it's absolutely fundamental to what we have achieved so far, which is a world without another world war. And that led me to believe that I could offer something to the United Nations, I could offer something to the world. And that's why I threw my name into the ring.

[19:43] Christiana Figueres

You were very much of a UN insider, which I wasn't. I thought the whole process was rather strange, and we will talk about that in a minute. But did you find it strange? Did you find any part of it strange?

[19:59] Susana Malcorra

I mean, it was a very interesting exercise. Just trying to make my pitch of why was it that I could offer something was an exercise that was very different from anything that had done until that very moment. And this is not a democratic context, clearly. And it's not a context where you are voted by the world. That's not the case. You and I know that in the end, there are very few votes that really count. But you need to make your pitch to different people, to the five permanent members, to the ten non-permanent members. To others who have influence, who can bring coalitions forward. And going around and trying to do that was something that really, really extracted from me something different, you know? And as you said, I was an insider, I was known, but I was known in a certain role or certain roles. And I wanted to capture the imagination and the attention to a totally different role. As per the process and what it meant, it is clearly, it was then and it is today a very obscure process. Although I have to recognize that President Liketov, the then president of the General Assembly, did a huge effort to open it up and to push the agenda. In fact, as you might well remember, he even insisted on having one more than one candidate proposed by the Security Council to the General Assembly. So he did a lot. He did a lot of regarding the opening up to the world, to the audiences of the world through the debates. So it was better until a certain point where it became totally opaque.

[21:50] Christiana Figueres

Are you referring to the town halls? The town halls is the name in the UN. Outsiders would call it the debates that we had in the Assembly, in the General Assembly Hall. Was that the first time that that had actually all occurred?

[22:05] Susana Malcorra

It was the first time.

[22:06] Christiana Figueres

That's what I thought.

[22:07] Susana Malcorra

And it was the first and only time, Cristiana, that this was part of the process. So it was formalized, it was established, and us as candidates had no choice. We had to participate.

[22:22] Christiana Figueres

Talk to me a little bit more about that opacity as you have, or obscurity as you have mentioned it in the undemocratic process. Yes, it's the 1946 rules. Why are they still in place? What else contributes to the, I would say the lack of transparency? I think you've said, you know, the process is not up to date where we are now. It's also not up to date with the expectations of transparency that we have actually grown into, would you agree?

[22:55] Susana Malcorra

Well, first of all, as you well know, this is embedded in the Charter of the United Nations. But the reference is a very, very succinct reference. There is not a detailed reference to how the process will go. And in fact, what the reference it makes is that what goes into the hands of the Security Council, what is the role of the five permanent, and what goes to the General Assembly, which also could be interpreted. So you could have the flexibility of interpretation. Why hasn't changed? Because the charter has not been changed. It's in the same realm if we can compare to the reform of the Security Council. That will fall into a reform of the charter. So that hasn't happened. Having said that, my sense is that there is room for interpretation in the case of the selection of the Secretary-General, and that interpretation falls in the hands again of the President of the General Assembly and the President of the Security Council when they invite and they set up certain more precise rules. For example, there is no limit to when the candidates could be put forward. So you could have a candidate say that by November we still don't have a selected Secretary-General. We could have a candidate coming in in November and be part of the final selections. I think that is a very uneven base. I think there should be a limit to when candidates should be put forward. That's not there, but there is no place where it says that should not exist. So there is flexibility to build more transparency into the process and also add more power in the General Assembly, which is in my view one of the key elements to make this more democratic, because in the end, the General Assembly is the full representation of the 193 member states. And this condition that President Liketov tried, and I understand the current president of the General Assembly also tried to have more than one candidate put forward, is also important, because if there is an opportunity for the General Assembly to choose between, say, two candidates, that gives more space to a more democratic process. Clearly, the P5 have chosen not to do that. They want to retain the full power in their hands. And clearly, the notion of having time limits to introduce candidates is also a show of power. Because in the end, if there is no agreement among the P5, there could be a last-minute candidate that could be suitable to what they see as necessary. So there are things that are embedded in a tradition more than established rules that could be addressed, but they require the willingness of the P5 to adjust and adapt.

[26:06] Christiana Figueres

Do you think the blindness of the votes could be changed? I mean, at this point, as an outsider, you never know who is tending in which direction, even among the 10, let alone of the P5. So is that also a possibility to have more transparency there, or is that going too far?

[26:28] Susana Malcorra

Well, I think it's desirable, but I also believe that there are steps before even that, that will allow more transparency. You said to the externals, this is not known, even to the internals, because you and I as candidates were internal to the process. We might have suspicion, we might have heard suggestions of who said what and who voted how, but we never had a confirmation of that. So it's a very, very tricky decision process. I think adjudicating votes will be a significant step forward, definitely. I still believe that there are things that could be done even prior to that to make it more transparent and more open. And I put a lot of value to the notion of having more than one candidate proposed to the General Assembly.

[27:22] Christiana Figueres

Absolutely. Well, let's get into this, Susana. So where are we in the status of the SG race now in 2026? First, I believe, but correct me if I'm wrong, that the nine SGs that we have had in the UN, of course, they have all been men. We know that for sure. But they have generally come from countries that are not dominant global powers. And that has been tradition. It's definitely not defined in the Charter nor anywhere else. But that is, I guess, a global political balance that is sought with the major powers sitting in the Security Council or some of the major powers. And then the idea is for the SG to come from a small or middle power. Also, one thing to note is that there is an informal regional rotation. Our region, Latin America and the Caribbean, has not held the position of SG since 1991 after Pérez de Cuellar. So, those two traditions, let's say, would lead one to believe that maybe, perhaps, it is the time for a Latin American SG coming from one of the small or middle powers. That is not guaranteed by any chance, but one could think that there is a tendency toward that. Is that a fair assessment?

[29:01] Susana Malcorra

It is an absolutely fair assessment, you know, and it's clear that there is a recognition that the traditional major powers, the P5 to summarize, hold the veto power and that they should not also hold the position of the Secretary-General and a view that maybe this is an opportunity to democratize and have a representation of small middle powers. So that's clearly a tradition as it is a recognition of regional rotation. One could argue, Christiana, that the regional rotation was broken last time because from the way regions are defined within the United Nations, last time it was a time for Eastern Europe to hold the position. And that did not happen and the person that was selected came from Europe. Others argue Europe is one and there should be no recognition of Western Eastern. There is a question mark, let me say. Formally, it was a time for Eastern Europe and it did not happen. So now is the time for Latin America and the Caribbean and it's clear that it's long overdue because as you rightly pointed out, Perez de Cuellar left the UN many, many decades ago and the Latin American, the Caribbean region, which plays such a critical role in the foundation of the United Nations is delay in getting back to the Secretariat. But we also need to hear what some of the powers have said and we hear that both Washington and Moscow had indicated that they don't care about regional rotation, they don't care about any particular region, they want the best of the best from the world. So there are signs there that say, well, we are not committed to this principle. Contrary to that, China has indicated that they value the regional rotation and they have also indicated that they will value to have a woman, which is a very interesting message sent by China, which normally its tradition is to keep their cars very close to their chest. Very close to their chest. And this time they came out on both fronts, in regional rotation and gender. So we shall see. I think that we also had a big sense, you know, the 1 for 7 video campaign, this was the time and it did not happen in 2016. I just hope and not only hope, we work so that it is clear that there are enough options among the women candidates to decide for a woman Secretary-General.

[31:50] Christiana Figueres

On the gender, very different to what we had 10 years ago, because now it's a majority women. And I should say, again, a Costa Rican woman in the race, Rebeca Grynspan. But once again, for listeners, we have never had a woman Secretary-General since the founding of the UN. As I say it, Susana, it's a little bit difficult to even pronounce the sentence for me, and I'm sure for you, even more difficult, because it is unbelievable.

[32:23] Susana Malcorra

Let me say something here, Christiana.

[32:25] Christiana Figueres

Please.

[32:26] Susana Malcorra

When we did an analysis, we meaning GWL Voices, of the background of all the candidate women in 2016, versus the candidate men in 2016, with different, weighting the different aspects of experience, of capacities, and it was clear that women did not come below men. It was very clear. In fact, depending on what you weighted more, there were more women as options than men. So again, as an analysis, of course, this is not a mathematical exercise. It's a political exercise. We know that. But this addresses the question of having the enough experience, having the background, having what it takes to become a secretary-general. What really disturbed me from the result, Christiana, what really bothered me was not so much that I didn't get it. I was disappointed personally, as I'm sure you were. But that no woman out of these seven options that they had on the table was available. And you could choose whatever criteria, and there were good women, more than one, that will tick the boxes. So it's clear that there were different arguments into consideration when women were assessed against man. And we hear this, this one is to bossy, this one is to soft. You know, things that you never hear from men. Yeah. So there are different considerations, and that is something that shows the bias that goes against the analysis and evaluation of women that goes far beyond, far beyond merit.

[34:15] Christiana Figueres

Susana, has that changed in the past 10 years? Do you think that we are standing now in a serious chance of having Madam Secretary-General?

[34:24] Susana Malcorra

Well, I hope that's the case. I work for that to be the case. We work for that to be the case, but I have no certainty. And you know, when I hear power centers saying, you know, we don't care about the gender, we care about a merit, and the merit never comes when you are speaking about men, you know, that's a given. I always say, I assume that the past nine secretary-general have been selected by merit. I assume. So it's not that we are asking for something different here. No, something new. Not at all. Not at all. We recognize, I mean, we will be the last ones to say, merit should not be a consideration. It's a primary consideration. But we also know that it's not the only consideration. And that's where we want to make sure that there are no biases in the assessment so that women are either too bossy or too soft, as I mentioned earlier.

[35:23] Christiana Figueres

But still, Susana, my gut sense is that we do stand a much better chance now. If that is true, and that's just my gut sense, something must have changed. In the world psyche, I don't think it's, you know, just in the UN. In the world psyche, what could have changed in the past 10 years that makes it now quite possible that we may have Madam Secretary-General?

[35:48] Susana Malcorra

Well, the first thing that has changed, and you said it, is the number of women against the number of men. You said there were two outside Latin America and the Caribbean, African, two men from Africa. But if you analyze only Latin America and the Caribbean, there is only one man, my countryman, Grossi, is the only man from the region. So it is somehow, I think there has been an understanding that proposing women stands a better chance. And that in itself creates a change. And that in itself is a very positive development, very positive development.

[36:26] Christiana Figueres

Absolutely. Well, what should we be looking for over the next few months, Susana, knowing that the new secretary-general has to be in place by the beginning of next year? What should we be looking for over the next few months?

[36:40] Susana Malcorra

My biggest concern is that the time is such that something that is not easy to agree on for the P5 traditionally now has elements, has ingredients, that make it even more challenging. And that's why I don't know whether October will be the time when they decide. And that's what also makes me wonder if we might see more candidates coming later in the race because there is this deadlock among the P5. We just don't know that.

[37:15] Christiana Figueres

We don't know, let's, well, let's hope that the reason may prevail, not that that is always what we have.

[37:26] Tom Rivett-Carnac

So we're going to do an unusual thing. We're going to have this interview in two parts. So that was the first piece. And Susana obviously talked significantly there about the opacity of this process, how peculiar it is, how sort of archaic, it's very old style, isn't it? So it hasn't really changed in many decades. Now, of course, we're in the middle of the straw polls at the moment. You're-

[37:43] Christiana Figueres

Three, we have three.

[37:44] Tom Rivett-Carnac

We have three, yeah. So your fellow Costa Rican, Rebeca Grynspan, is currently in the lead, and Guyana's Carolyn Rodrigues-Birkett in the second. Who's in the second, yeah. Exactly. I mean, looking at those numbers, I'm not a betting man, but it looks to me like it's probably gonna be one of those two. Now, who knows? As we said, it's a very opaque process. I don't have any particular insight into the system, but those two seem to have some momentum.

[38:06] Christiana Figueres

First of all, after the third straw poll, those who are at the bottom of the straw poll should bow out, because it just makes the process a little bit simpler to have fewer.

[38:18] Tom Rivett-Carnac

And we've seen some of that.

[38:20] Christiana Figueres

Yeah, not enough. Michelle Bachelet has bowed out. But it would be simpler in a very opaque process to have fewer people still in the running. Having said all of that, Susana warns that there is no rule in the United Nations that precludes a black horse from coming in in the last minute. So here we are after the third poll. The next one is already going to be color-coded. Ten years ago, we had six straw polls before António Guterres was nominated to the General Assembly. And it could be that we have three more. This has to be done by the end of the year because the new Secretary-General has to start in January. But Susana points to something that makes the whole process even more opaque. And that is those who are in the running now, it is possible, not entirely possible, but possible, that none of them will actually be Secretary-General. Because if one or two of the permanent members decide that no one whose name is on the table right now is someone that they can support, anyone can come in. And that is a very strange process.

[39:44] Tom Rivett-Carnac

It's a very strange process, isn't it, yeah.

[39:46] Christiana Figueres

And there is a country called the United States of America that could very well come in in the end with somebody completely out of nowhere.

[39:59] Tom Rivett-Carnac

For example, the head of FIFA, Gianni Infantino, right?

[40:03] Christiana Figueres

For example.

[40:04] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Which is what they've been talking about.

[40:06] Christiana Figueres

I mean, now of course, in this case, we're safeguarded by four other vetoes, because those four could veto that. So for the first time, I think, in history, the vetoes votes actually are safeguarding against craziness. But it is a very, very strange process.

[40:25] Tom Rivett-Carnac

It's an interesting point, though, because if you remember, we talked about the maritime negotiations, the International Maritime Organization, when the US was pulling incredible stunts by threatening sanctions and all sorts of things to get other countries into line. We've not seen that kind of bullying behavior by the UA. We don't know if we have. We don't know about it so far in this process. I guess it's a bit different. The appointment of an SG doesn't affect trade or tariffs in the same way that the IMO treaty might. But-

[40:52] Christiana Figueres

Well, in an IMO, there's voting of members.

[40:55] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Yeah.

[40:55] Christiana Figueres

Yeah. So it's very different.

[40:56] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Yeah.

[40:57] Christiana Figueres

Okay.

[40:57] Tom Rivett-Carnac

So let's go back to the second half of your interview, where I think what you did was you very much wanted to sort of think about the world that this person, that she is going to be inheriting when she takes office.

[41:08] Christiana Figueres

Don't you think it's unfair that she gets to sit up there when the world is falling apart? I mean, why do women have to pick up all the pieces?

[41:17] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Well, I think we should clearly make the point here that when this new first female secretary-general comes in, everything, I mean, in a way, that's the way you want to come into a job, right? Expectations are low. You kind of, you know, the only way is up from where we are at the moment.

[41:32] Christiana Figueres

Been there before. Yeah. But I think we have to recognize that, right? The world is falling to pieces on so, so many different issues. And whoever gets there, she will have to begin to pick up those pieces.

[41:45] Tom Rivett-Carnac

As you did.

[41:46] Christiana Figueres

As is possible.

[41:47] Tom Rivett-Carnac

As is possible. Yeah. All right. Let's go back to the interview.

[41:53] Christiana Figueres

Susana, it seems to me, and this is where I would love your insight, that this job has many competing demands. This person is expected to be both an excellent administrator of a vast institutional network, with huge international bureaucracy, but also a political leader, right? He's supposed to be acting as a diplomat, a mediator, a public advocate, overseeing of the UN peacekeeping operations, and is supposed to be a visionary and a very strong communicator of where the world ought to be going. So that's the first competition of demands. The second competing demand is the balance between the quiet diplomacy, the private mediation and the discretion behind the closed doors, but also the fact that the Secretary-General has the bully pulpit of the world and has to speak publicly against abuses and sometimes even at the cost of some diplomatic access. The third, I'm going to give you four, the third competing demand is how does the Secretary-General both respect the sovereignty of states while defending things that are universal, universal principles, human rights, humanitarian principles, emerging international norms. How do they do both of those? Finally, as we have been discussing, how do you have a collaborative relationship with the Security Council, but not too close because that could get you into trouble with the broader UN membership and certainly with developing countries. That is just a very simple summary of the challenges of an SG. I mean, you could look at that and say it is a completely impossible job. What flags, what lights do you think are there for any Secretary-General, whoever she may be, to manage all of these competing demands?

[44:03] Susana Malcorra

Well, you described it as the most impossible job in the world. And as it was said, the UN is not there to take you to heaven, is to avoid you going to hell. So it's a very, very difficult job. I define it in a simplistic manner, Christiana.

[44:22] Christiana Figueres

Go for it. Love it.

[44:24] Susana Malcorra

What is the Secretary-General? Is she a secretary or is she a general?

[44:29] Christiana Figueres

The book, the famous book.

[44:31] Susana Malcorra

She's both, but the secret is to strike the balance on how much time are you a secretary and how much time you are a general. And I will argue that most of the time you are a secretary, no doubt about it, and you reach out and you serve, and you are the promoter of the causes of the member states, and you are the convener. So that's a very important job. And as part of being a secretary, of course, you are the CAO, the Chief Administrative Officer of the UN. So that's essential. But you need to choose whether it's 80-20, 90-10. I don't know what the right percentage is. But in that lower space, when are the times when you act as a general? And that requires, wisdom requires your nose, your political nose to realize this is a time where I exert my power. I do not agree with people that say that the Secretary-General has no power. I believe the Secretary-General has a different type of power. And exercising that power is an essential part of the role of the Secretary-General. And let me just use an example. Article 99 of the Charter is something that is in the hands of the Secretary-General. For your audience, if they don't know it, Article 99 gives the Secretary-General the power to come to the Security Council and bring to the attention of the Security Council a matter that he or she considers is of absolute priority because it might have an impact in the peace and security of the world. So, when we talk about mediation, when we talk about early alerts, this is a key part of the toolbox that hasn't been used almost at all, I think four times in the whole history of the United Nations. Of course, it's a tough call. Of course, it's a call that may bring you to a position where you are very, very, very much under scrutiny, but that's what you are supposed to be up to. So there are elements there where you can balance between the tool. The other thing, Christiana, which to me is part of my simplified analysis, there is no way that a Secretary-General, as great as she might be, can do everything, particularly given the variety of issues at hand. So building a strong team is a significant part of the recipe for success. And here comes your relationship with member states that try to impose their own candidates for certain positions. So there is another element there to say, listen, I want to combine capacities, I want to combine profiles, I want to combine geographic representation, because that brings a variety of perspectives. In bringing a team together that really can exert the best of the United Nations in each one of the areas where the UN is involved. So it is very tricky, it's imperfect, and you're not going to get it right every time. But being there, being there very soon when things start, you know, that's the other element, you know, if something breaks, you have to be there in the field at the very initial moment to bring the UN to the issue. But the most significant part is trying to avoid that something happens, so that preventive part. It is true that we are in a time where restraint, which was the principle in which the UN was based, that restraining my power was in my own interest because if everything breaks loose, everybody loses, that restraint has been lost. We have seen it in many occasions recently. So the conditions are challenging, but finding that balance between being the secretary and the general and defining a good team to support you, to listen to, because that's the other thing. You don't have everything in your head. You need to listen to different people and to work in a close collaboration with member states because you need the support of a group of member states if you are going to move forward with a certain issue. So that's the combination. It's a very, very difficult combination.

[49:11] Christiana Figueres

Difficult.

[49:12] Susana Malcorra

You are again not going to get it right every time, but that's the secret behind having enough success to make the United Nations relevant to the issues at hand.

[49:25] Christiana Figueres

So let's talk about that. Make the United Nations relevant to the issues at hand. Let us say that next January, we have the first woman ever to lead the UN. Arguably, she would take that institution over, not just in a historical achievement to be the first woman, but also arguably at the most difficult geopolitical time, certainly in this century and perhaps even the years before. One could safely say that there is a danger that we are down a slippery road of diminishing impact of the UN. You, I would say, of all of the people, in fact, even of all the candidates that we have right now, you have sat closer to a secretary general than anyone else. What would you say are the opportunities for the secretary general over the next five or ten years?

[50:29] Susana Malcorra

Well, first of all, Christiana, the UN was set initially to avoid a third world war. So it's clear that peace and security is the very first priority. There is no doubt about that. And it's clear that the UN has lost space in that realm. When you look at the biggest things that are on top of the mind of everyone, the UN is nowhere to be seen there. So we need to come back to the table. And to come back to the table, we need to offer something. But there are many, many conflicts that go beyond Ukraine, Gaza and Iran. We have Sudan, we have Myanmar, we have conflicts going in many places in Yemen, in Somalia, in many places of the world where the UN could play a significant role and of a higher profile, because there is a matter of profile here too. You know, in this day and age where communications are instantaneous and where people read things every 10 seconds, being there, being prominent, being part of the large communication scheme is essential. So, what I think should happen is for whoever comes to the helm of the United Nations is to prioritize where are the most significant conflicts, some of them even dormant conflicts that could be solved or addressed if not solved, and invest on that, bring them up, their profile up, because people in the world in general terms ignore what is happening in Sudan, which is just horrible, absolutely horrible. So, let me give you Sudan as an example, and invest on that. Accompany whatever efforts are being made in these other conflicts that where the UN has been left to a second role, but be there again, be there again. I believe that even Washington recognizes that the UN has a role to play in many of these conflict areas, so it's fundamental to do that. Then you need to choose what are the elements, the newer elements in this world of ours that require significant attention. And António Guterres has invested time now in AI. I think that is a significant area where the UN needs to work on. I don't need to tell you about climate change. That's an area that requires continuous support. The use of technology and the appropriation of technology as a game changer is fundamental. Even rethinking the COPs is something that is not in the hands of the Secretary-General, but the Secretary-General can be a conductor to those conversations, a supporter of those conversations. So there are elements there that you can say the UN is backing business. This does not mean that the UN will be able to address all the issues that will be successful in addressing the issues that it chooses to address in every occasion. But you need to establish a dashboard of priorities and invest on those priorities, be focused. And on top of that, be very, very alerted to early signs of new conflicts coming your way. And there you have different ways to address these quiet diplomacy, back channel conversations, more open messages when things start to heat up. Or as I said earlier, even the use of Article 99, to show the UN at a different proactive stage vis-à-vis something that is happening, that is new. So we cannot think that the UN is going to solve the problems. It never did. We should be able to show that the UN is present, is useful, is supportive of problem-solving. And we should also recognize, and to me this is fundamental, that the Secretary-General needs to be ready to take calculated risk. Because there is not such a proposition as a no risk taker Secretary-General. You cannot be wild, but you need to be ready to take calculated risk. And taking calculated risk means taking your chances to be successful, but also to fail. And failing while trying is something that is, for me, one of the main things that the UN should do. Try and try and try.

[55:12] Christiana Figueres

Yeah. Failing while trying. Well.

[55:15] Susana Malcorra

And sometimes that's the reality, you know, because there are many things that are out of your hands. But if you don't try because you assume that the chances of failing are too high, then you are not doing your job.

[55:27] Christiana Figueres

Indeed. Then you are not doing your job.

[55:30] Susana Malcorra

And you know this very well, you know this very well from the climate change negotiations, Christiana. I do, I do. I explained in terms of peace and security, but it applies to every area in which the UN is involved.

[55:45] Christiana Figueres

Susana, thank you so much. Thank you for taking so much time. Thank you for 10 years of very hard work. I am cautiously confident that your efforts will bear fruit this year, and that we will all be able to celebrate the first Madam Secretary. In large part, thank you to you and GWL efforts over 10 years. So thank you so much. And I also celebrate one phrase that you just used, which is, we have to show that the UN is back in business.

[56:21] Susana Malcorra

And I thank you for the opportunity. I need to tell the audience, I don't think I have said it earlier, that you are a member of GWL Voices, too.

[56:29] Christiana Figueres

Indeed. That's why you're always in my email.

[56:33] Susana Malcorra

As one of the leaders that come together to try and address this issue. So thank you, Christiana. I am confident, too. I have all the optimism that the work we are doing will yield results. But I'm also cognizant of the conditionality. So let's keep working.

[56:51] Christiana Figueres

Let's keep working. Thank you very much, Susana.

[56:55] Susana Malcorra

To you, Christiana.

[57:01] Tom Rivett-Carnac

So, I'm so glad we were able to, first of all, you spoke to Susana and what an amazing interview that was

[57:01] Christiana Figueres

Thank you very much, Susana. Kisses.

[57:01] Susana Malcorra

To you, Christiana. Bye.

[57:01] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Presumably, at some point in the next couple of months, we will have the first woman Secretary-General appointed.

[57:14] Christiana Figueres

That would be amazing.

[57:15] Tom Rivett-Carnac

That would be amazing. And it would be a great signal of positive momentum at a time when we haven't had much. Anything you want to say before we wrap this episode?

[57:22] Christiana Figueres

I can barely conceive a scenario in which a woman would not become Secretary-General. I really can barely consider that scenario. And it would just be, it would honestly be painful.

[57:38] Tom Rivett-Carnac

It would be painful, yeah.

[57:39] Christiana Figueres

It would be really, really painful because no one can argue that there are not enough brilliant, capable, prepared women on that list. No one can argue that. So a black horse that would be a male would be a very, very sad.

[57:58] Tom Rivett-Carnac

And would be a slap in the face to the rest.

[57:59] Christiana Figueres

Would be a slap to the face to all women.

[58:03] Tom Rivett-Carnac

And to most of the General Assembly who also want that.

[58:05] Christiana Figueres

And to most of the General Assembly.

[58:07] Tom Rivett-Carnac

Yeah. Well, and when she does come in, there's going to be an enormous amount on her play, including, as we've talked about, you know, the UN has not really managed to play the role we know it needs to play in AI governance, apart from anything else, along with climate and other things. So we've got to hope that when she comes in, that amongst much else will be in the entree. Christiana, it's been fun. Nice to be with you in New York. Yeah, in New York. How weird. I know. We'll cover a bit more what happened this week at the Leaders Summit, which is happening on Wednesday and other things in next week's podcast.

[58:39] Christiana Figueres

Okay, cool.

[58:40] Tom Rivett-Carnac

All right. Thanks everyone. Bye.