161: The Power of Disclosure with CDP’s Paul Simpson

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: These are all, just explain what those companies are.

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Paul Dickinson: Well, they're financial intermediaries, really, who package up information for investors principally. But I mean, actually, oddly enough, anyone listening to this program can go to the cdp.net website and download responses from giant companies up to a certain number you can download for free. And we really welcome the idea that great corporations are accountable, not just for their financial performance, but for their environmental performance.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: So that's fascinating. And I love what you just said, Paul Simpson, about... I love everything Paul Dickinson says, of course. But specifically, you just said, it's the jiu-jitsu move of working out where the power exists already latent in society, and then focusing it in order to solve solutions. So talk a bit about, because in a way, investors, despite that remarkable growth in investors standing behind you and corporations responding, that's only one of the forms of power that you've leveraged. So talk about how you've expanded that in other ways.

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): Yes, after getting some success with the investment community, we realized that actually companies have immense power through their procurement. So we launched a supply chain program where big corporations ask their suppliers to disclose. Now we have 250 multinationals, most importantly with $5 trillion of annual procurement spend. So when those big companies ask their suppliers to disclose, if it's just one company's suppliers, maybe if we can get four multinationals to ask one company to disclose, we'll always get some disclosure because the management will sit there and say, this is X percent of our sales. Of course we're going to give these people some information. You have the power of investment, the power of procurement. You either have the power of competition. So many companies would say, well, our investors are asking us, but also our competitors are doing it. We can't be seen to be left behind our competitors. There's so much fear about how do we compare to each other. We have that as humans, companies have it, investors have it. In fact, almost sadly, for quite some time, it's changed now, the investors who had access to the data would first look at their competitors before looking at the companies they invest in. That's changed now because now the investment community has woken up, this is a major risk, you need to use the data to be better in selling your products.

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Paul Dickinson: One more fun fact, Paul says that we realized that Purchase had a great authority, but shout out to all the interns listening, it was actually an intern at Walmart, she worked out that it would be really cool to share CDP with the supply chain. And so Walmart then contacted us and we were like, oh my, this is the biggest thing in the world.

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): Completely true, no, completely true. And another bit of power is that, you know, when you're a teenager, you're preparing for your exams, you have to do exams, you get an A, B, C or D, pretty nerve wracking, right? It's an amazing time because you get stretched and grow, but you get judged and how do you perform against your peers? Well, CDP is really, and Paul Dickinson often says this, a global examination system for all the world's companies and cities and states and regions. They get ranked. How good is their disclosure? How good is their climate and environmental performance? And those rankings have enormous impact. I've had people phone me up and say, well, this is ridiculous. You know, I have only got a B, I'm not going to get my bonus this year. I've had other people phone me up and say, Paul, we got an A, I don't want an A, I need to persuade my board to give me another, you know, 50 million for investing in environmental projects. If you give me a B or C, I can argue a business case, I need more investment to do more. And of course, you know, the worst ones are the kind of F, right? F is failed to disclose. It couldn't even be bothered to provide any more information. Who wants to fail? Well, sadly, 17,000 companies last year didn't disclose CDP when asked. Everybody should find out who they are. It's all on the CDP website and go after them.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: So that's, I want to get in a minute to like what you found in terms of, because we talked about disclosure and the use of that power. I want to get to like what you found in terms of how the world is now dealing with the crisis. But I also just want to ask one more question about power and authority, which is the original brilliant idea to focus this power on a particular outcome, put you all in a position of considerable responsibility to work out how it gets focused, what questions are asked. And someone might look at this and say, on what authority are they deciding what should and shouldn't be asked in those questions? Because if you have most regulators or forms of authority are the result of elected power, I mean, you could look at this and say, isn't this an unelected NGO that's used the power of the market to focus it on issues that they think are important? Like, how do you answer that question? How do you wield power responsibly once you've grown up?

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): Well, great question. And firstly, you have to earn and keep trust. Why did investors say, well, yes, we will let you use our name to request disclosure? Why did those 245 and then this growing number every year of companies disclose? Two reasons, I think. One is that we have always acted purely in the public good. We're not here to serve ourselves. We have grown an organization because everything else has grown to grow impact. But it's not self-fulfilling, ultimately. It's actually about public good and the mission. So we're super true to the mission. One, and then the other thing is to behave very professionally. Don't mess about. Don't disrespect people. Build relationships. Treat their data carefully. Hold into account, yes. Be clear what you're going to do. If I show up at your house and say, Tom, I've come to your house. I'm going to do X and Y and Z in your garden. Now, if you really understand it, you might let me. If you don't, you won't.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: You're welcome to come and do anything in my garden, by the way.

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Paul Dickinson: If you want to come and, you know.

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): Can I come and swim in your pool?

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Paul Dickinson: Tom's built a pool full of dead frogs.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: It's actually a pond, exactly.

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): It's a pond. No, what else did you say?

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Paul Dickinson: I think you put it perfectly. Is that going out to the investors each year, to the purchasing organizations each year and saying, we'd like to use your authority again. These are the questions we're planning to ask.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: I see.

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Paul Dickinson: So essentially, it is built on annual cycles of consent. And we're incredibly transparent in public. So when we do our public consultation on what the questions should be for the following year, literally thousands of experts all over the world write to us. And I think we're very pleased and proud to be a sort of nexus of a global brain working on this and evolving this and with, as you said, real power used correctly to... So companies can sort of be their better selves.

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): And the other thing to say that it's easy in the world to say, well, companies are all bad, right? And of course, some are and some many do bad things. But there's a whole system here, again, that humans have created. And within these companies and investors and governments, there are many amazing people who get it, who want to drive change. You know, most people want to do well, I would argue. So it's finding those people who then say, wow, you've given me an outlet to push something else forward against the system. But it isn't actually a person.

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Paul Dickinson: A final super important point. It's kind of obvious, but we are a not-for-profit organization. So we're a UK registered charity. We're involved in other not-for-profit structures around the world. We've received extraordinary backing from people like the UK prime minister wrote a letter for our first launch. Madeleine Albright spoke at our first launch in 2003 in the US. The Secretary General of the United Nations.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: Christiana Figueres.

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Paul Dickinson: Christiana Figueres. The Christiana Figueres. Dame Christiana Figueres. But no, I mean, honestly, Angela Merkel wrote the introduction to our German report when she was first chancellor in 2006, spoke at our launch last year in Berlin, the prime ministers of Japan. And all politicians kind of love us because they can see that we represent the sort of power of the market to kind of correct itself.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: It's an interesting point, though, isn't it? You know, and one that is the result of success, right? I mean, you become successful, you become powerful. And then how do you wield that power in a manner that continues to grow the success? But that's it's very interesting to hear you reflect on it. I'd love to ask, I mean, our listeners are all over the world, all kinds of different people, people who would sort of be very predisposed to the idea that business contains much of the solutions to climate, and those who would say that business is causing the problem. There's very few people in the world who would be as well positioned as you, and you, Dickinson, I'll say that.

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Paul Dickinson: No, I'm pointing at Paul. It's a difficult question, and I think Paul's going to answer very well.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: I'd love you to just give us a, you know, from your sitting in the seat you're in, you're out of this job on the day this podcast comes out, you've stepped down after all this time. How is the corporate world doing in response to this challenge? Have we come, if you look back to all those years ago, are you pleased with the progress? Do you wish we'd gone further? How do you judge our success or otherwise?

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): I mean, we made enormous progress, right? You know, it's literally 21, 22 years ago, head in the sand, people are not even aware, you know, was climate change real? Was it really a problem? If it's a problem, it's so far in the future, we're focused on the now. The business cycle is really, you know, five years planning at the maximum. So we've made enormous progress. I think we've won the battle on awareness, right? Everybody, because there was very little awareness then. Everybody gets climate change is a massive problem, it's human's responsibility, we have to do something, first point. Secondly, not only is it a problem, we have to act. We collectively have responsibility. Now, there are clearly some in the business system that are still reneging on that. I'll come on to that in a minute. But I think, generally, most large, well-run businesses, we really know we have responsibility, we have to act. So great, almost like base one is achieved, base two is achieved. Where we are now is we need a radical transformation of the global economy super quickly. In the next eight years, emissions need to go down 7% per annum to get to where we need to be in 2030, a 50% cut, 45 to 50, but let's aim for 50 in case we're short. So it's how quickly can we transform? And I think the challenge then is that the global business system, as Paul Diaz said, is set up to, in one sense, make money. The other thing is to provide what people want. And people want lots of things, people are not homogeneous, but there you have lots of business saying, well, we want to be part of the solution, we can make money out of being the solution, this is a huge growth opportunity, but you still have a lot of businesses who understand and be like, we're providing something that still has utility currently for some people, they're willing to pay for it, but maybe we don't have a business of the future, and then you see this, like, still some parts of the business system gripping on. You know, I mean, the fossil fuel industry is the worst part of that, but there are other parts, and it's how do we pick away each sector to get that transformation? We need energy, right? So, you know, is the fossil fuel company going to become an energy company of the future, or a dead fossil fuel company of the past? It's up to them, but there's still a lot of entrenchment. I would say my biggest concern is the businesses who are putting the brakes on regulation. Most governments are trying to regulate to address this problem. Is it enough? No, but again, lots of good regulation. There's a massive wave of disclosure regulation coming. Then we need a bigger wave on transition planning, incentives. How do we accelerate the change and transformation? So any company that's blocking regulation is unacceptable. The investors should be given their hard time. People should stop buying from them. Paul Dickinson also always said, well, you vote with your money, right? So we vote at the electoral polls.

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Paul Dickinson: That was Madeleine Albright's phrase. I was just copying. She said at our launch.

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): But yeah, every time you buy something, you're fighting for it to be there again. Right. So every single thing you buy, it doesn't matter if it's a penny suite, a car, a house, a beer, everything you buy, you're telling the markets you want it again. So you have to think very consciously, like, what am I buying? What are the signals I'm sending? So I think the business system is kind of, we need the business system. It has enormous potential to be part of the solution. We have to find solutions to the part of the system that either feels threatened or is holding on unnecessarily.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: So Paul, I want you to come in, but I just want to dig one step deeper into that, because you referenced the amount of me have still to climb to 2030, right? There's different ways of looking at this. One way is to say, the last 20 years, we have made enormous progress and we're now geared for the big jump in the next few years. And the other way is to look at it and say, we still haven't really done it, right? We've sort of, we've made some progress. There's been a few technology changes, but that's 7%. I mean, that is a nightmare now that we need to make that kind of deep emissions cuts. I mean, do you feel that business is where it needs to be in order to... That's a really tall order from here. Do you feel that the leaders you see in business, the investment plans that are out there, gives you confidence that business will play a really meaningful part and will be part of that success over the next few years?

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): Business will definitely play a meaningful part. And if you look at all... Again, nothing's homogeneous. If you look at all businesses, maybe 10% or 20% or 30% of the businesses are progressive. They get it. They're really pushing hard. They still need to do more. We all need to do more. But they're sort of geared up to be a massive part of the solution. You've probably got a third part of the problem that need regulation and different change. And the rest is on the fence. All the time we're getting more and more businesses to move into the positive solutions. Every day, every week, people are waking up, people are realising and the economics are changing. The pressure from the investment community is increasing. The regulation signals. So we're in the great transformation. The question is, what are the further interventions need to accelerate that? Because right now, we're not on track. The metaphorical boss, the ice caps, is really unhappy. Paul Dickinson, Paul Simpson, you haven't done your job properly. I'm melting. Sort it out, right? It's not solely on our shoulders, thankfully. There's a lot of people...

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Paul Dickinson: I blame you.

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): Well, you're not taking your own responsibility, Tom. What are you going to do about it?

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Paul Dickinson: What are you going to do? I'm going to just add a little bit, which is you asked this business in the right place. No, it's obviously not because the emissions are out of control. We're not reducing 7% a year and most of the emissions are coming from business, so they're obviously in the wrong place. But I think it's been such a pleasure and honor for me to work with Paul and many other brilliant people to get corporations thinking about this. For example, one of our favorite stats is first year companies report to CDP about 30% of them or about a third have emissions reduction targets. By the third year, it's 60%. Boeing blessed them in 2009. They got as near as I've ever seen to a company sort of giving us a gold star. They said, CDP says, do you have environmental performance targets? We didn't, but we do now. This leads me on to my final point, which is actually, we've got to recognize that, absolutely right, we're talking about your responsibility when you're buying something or when you're investing. Although we're voting with our money, we're also kind of parents of that system, and we've got to parent it. You can't just allow the corporation to say, oh, they're big and they're out there. No, no, we've got shares in them, we're buying from them and we've got to parent them using data and using a learning process, if you will, to get our sort of systems to allow us to do the right thing.

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): Well, I completely agree. And the other thing, we have this problem, I think, being humans is like, well, there's nature and there's humans. No, I mean, we're nature and nature is us. Who made the businesses? We the people made the businesses. Now then the system gets designed in a certain way that if people operate in a certain way, they'll generally make more money. Now, I don't think one's life purpose is to make the most money, but some people clearly do. So how do we change that system and the incentives? Yeah, how do we regulate it? I think if you look at it, it's outrageous, the difference between the lowest paid person and the highest paid person in a large corporation. We have multiple of thousands driving inequality in the world, completely unacceptable. We have to just change that. Let's start with some disclosure, sign some light on it, then let's have some regulation. So yeah, I think business, you're much more stark on it. Business is not in the right place, but it's wrong to put all the blame on business. We all have to take responsibility, as citizens, as investors, as voters. And if everybody does all of those things, then the signals will change.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: Yeah. That's fascinating. And I love that. I love the hunt for the further accelerations that are now necessary for the transformation. I think it's a really good way to put it. And I'd love to just ask you a slightly cheeky question. As of today, this podcast comes out, you're doing other things with your life. And I'm going to try and get you to tell us what they're going to be in a minute. But before I do, what should he do? Dickinson's still here. So CDP carries on. You know, the work is amazing, two decades in. But the world is changing, right? The SEC is coming out with regulations that will presumably, you should tell me, make disclosure part of a regulated system. Now, you could absolutely say that's job done, right? That's what you wanted. And in a way, you guys have done more than anyone to bring that about. But given that change and given other change in the marketplace, good and bad, the role of CDP will presumably have to change. So what in your, you now have the most expansive view of leaving the organization. You haven't got to deliver it. You can sort of wax lyrical. What should CDP do next?

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): Well, firstly, the job is not done because the ice caps are melting, not refreezing. So Paul Dickinson has got some work to do. He better put his socks up.

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Paul Dickinson: I remember work. That's right, work.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: You're going to find out what it is now.

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): The other thing that climate change is a global challenge problem. Market capital can move across national boundaries. We don't have a fully fledged global government. I love the vision of United Nations. It struggles to deliver because of national protection. So we have built a piece of global infrastructure in terms of climate disclosure, but more than just climate disclosure in terms of climate accountability, and climate and environment. We're not just climate, we're water and forest. So Paul Dickinson and 560-odd colleagues are stewards of this piece of infrastructure that the world needs, cuts across national boundaries and drives accountability in the system. Yes, we're absolutely delighted of this wave of disclosure regulation. Yeah, we've got to get the SEC through the US courts, which is problematic right now. I mean, how many years is that going to take? Let's not even talk about the Supreme Court because it's in a right mess. So that's the problem. So what CDP can do on disclosure is adopt all of these evolving regulations and standards so that there is a global system that pushes norms and erases the top. CDP will continue to be the environmental disclosure system that sets the highest bar, pushes the innovation in disclosure, and not just on climate, but expanding out to cover all the planetary boundaries, land, water, oceans, etc. So there's a lot of work to do there. But then how do you use that mechanism, the data and the relationships, these investors and thousands of companies, not just for disclosure. I've not got out of bed for disclosure a single day for the last 21 years. It's what does the mechanism of disclosure drive in terms of change? The power of asking people questions. Have we got a strategy on climate change? Have we got a mission reduction target? CDP can put new questions into the disclosure platform. You might remember, Tom, in 2015, we put one in, did companies, were they in support of a Paris Agreement on climate change?

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: I remember vividly. Thank you very much for doing that.

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): Many more companies said yes.

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Paul Dickinson: Helped you and Christiana, didn't it?

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): As the ecosystem evolves, as the need for change evolves, the dynamism of the CDP system, and secondly, CDP is completely global. The disclosure from more than 100 countries. We're getting a patchwork of regulation, which is very welcome from national governments. But how do we get that all around the world? Some countries are going to go further and faster. The EU is going bang on disclosure, all environmental and social issues, double materiality, very technical, geeky word, but basically the impact on the company...

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: Save that for a special.

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Paul Dickinson: We're doing an 1800 part series on double materiality, starting in forever.

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): We're getting geeky on disclosure. But in simple terms, single materiality, which some in the markets are focused on, the impact on the company, double materiality, the impact on the company and the people on the planet. We have to have double materiality, people and planet.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: Clay, we're going to need a little bit of music to get us through that, okay?

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Paul Dickinson: Clay is special. Can I just build on one thing there, which is also I think you described perfectly, Paul, and also, these regulations are coming, but they're going to come at the speed at which the regulators feel confident. And I often think of CDP as a massive regulatory impact assessment, that if most companies in a country are doing something already, then the regulator can say, oh, well, we're going to make that into a regulation now. And then CDP can move a little bit further and expanding to these other themes and climate change is going to be with us for decades. The regulation is always going to be catching up. And more and more, everything's pointing toward the need now for taxation and regulation.

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): Yeah, and also, regulators have a super important job, protect the public good. Difficult job because they're getting lobbied by everyone, different sides, you've got electoral cycles, etc. But whenever we meet regulators and say, you should bring in climate disclosure, environmental disclosure regulations, they pause for a second normally, which is wise. And then they say, well, how many companies already do that? And it's a bit, it's a very logical question, but it's a bit depressing question because what they really mean is, if no one in the market is doing this, it's really quite difficult for us to push these companies so hard because we will get pushed back. If half the market is doing it, so in the US now, 80% of the S&P 500, the 500 largest US companies, are disclosing free CDP on climate. The SEC, not solely because of the CDP, lots of great work from many other US NGOs, series and others, to push the SEC. But the SEC is now emboldened to bring in a climate disclosure rule. So we have to shut...

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: They can't lead that, right? They have to follow the market.

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): To some extent, yeah. They can raise the floor, but they can't set the ceiling.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: Interesting.

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): So you need innovative, passionate people, it sounds like a singer in praises a little bit, it's not meant to be, to push change.

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Paul Dickinson: I've got one more question for Paul, if I may, which is I think that the regulatory thing is absolutely fantastic. CDP is not just climate change, it's all to water and forests, it's going to expand more. You've done an amazing job, Paul, and everyone agrees, helping the International Sustainability Standards Board of the IFRS accelerate its development with the...

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: It's going to be another special series.

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Paul Dickinson: With the inclusion of our very own Climate Disclosure Standards Board, which we transfer to them. Can you tell a little bit about how that deal came together and what was your vision for it?

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): Well, in fact, I mean, the context...

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: You've got 60 seconds on this one, yeah.

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): Well, the context is partly that. When you run an NGO, there's a lot of pressure to grow the NGO, raise the money, pay everyone's salaries, of course. You have to do it. So it's difficult running an organization because there's a bit of pressure to grow and deliver, of course, as it should be to a certain extent. But sometimes you think, what is the ultimate goal here? It's good that the global accounting standards body is now taking on environmental and social disclosures. It's a good thing. How do we help them? We're going to give them one of our greatest assets, the climate, as it goes to the standing board. We're going to give them the intellectual property, the knowledge we've built up, and we're going to give them people. So we transferred them in January so that we're institutionalizing our work. It's great that an NGO does something voluntary, market-based, using the levers, but actually building things into the institutions that exist in society at some point. And again, that's setting the floor, we've still got to keep raising that bar.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: It's interesting, I mean, as you try and change the world in a systemic way, you often run into institutional gaps, right? We as a society just haven't created some of the institutions we need that take us into the future, and some need to be built, some need to be let go of. So we don't have much more time. I want to ask you very quickly, I don't know if you want to answer this question, but what are you going to do now? I mean, you're sort of leaving CDP at this amazing moment, having run it for all these years.

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Paul Dickinson: Mission accomplished across the back of the aircraft carrier.

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): Paul in his flight suit.

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Paul Dickinson: Mind you, that didn't end very well, so that's a wrong metaphor.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: Honestly, I think you can leave feeling mission accomplished, not everything solved, but look at where you started, look where you got to the regulatory process. I mean, looking at it from where I see it, I hope that you feel immensely proud of what you've achieved over these decades here, because it is astonishing. And thank you, I would also say, from all of us. But there's going to be another chapter in the life of Paul Simpson, I hope, again, for all of us. Do you know what that's going to be?

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): Well, I am immensely proud. From where we've come, we've achieved so much, and that should be celebrated. But we haven't reached the end goal. No, I have a coach for work, very lucky, has given me the book, The Art Of Not Knowing. I haven't read it yet. I haven't stopped work yet. But I don't know what it's like to wake up and not think about CDP. That's absolutely true. Every single day, including Saturday, Sunday, I wake up. These are the things I didn't do yesterday. These are the things I need to do today. Weekends, they can part and be done later. I'm going to slow down, which you might notice from the way I talk, it would be a good thing. I'm going to take some time to reflect. Because we do get in this cycle of action. When you're in a job or you have commitments and demands on your life, which is lucky to have, generally, you get in a cycle of action. So it's important to sort of slow down and reflect. I'm going to go on a holiday and spend a lot of time with my 9-year-old and 6-year-old children. And then I'm going to consciously explore what next with exam questions, which at the moment will evolve. I don't know exactly, you know, how do I make my next intervention in the system to close the gap between what the science requires and where the markets are? CDP has been in this amazing intervention. We need CDP to grow and push forward. And to do that, I'm going to go spend some time in nature. I'm going to meditate. I'm going to talk to my great friends. And at some point in the next 3, 4, 5 months, I will know.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: Nice. Nice. That's feels like an amazing plan to step out into that and brave step out into the not knowing. But I have a suspicion you won't be short of offers if you look at the world at the moment. Paul Simpson is such a privilege to talk to you. We have to ask you our closing question, which is as you leave CDP, you reflect on 20 years, you look to the future. Can you tell us one thing you're outraged by and one thing you're optimistic about?

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): I'm absolutely outraged by corporate lobbying against the policies that are needed from regulators. It must stop immediately. Investors need to stop it. People need to stop buying from these companies. One, what I'm optimistic about, humans are generally good people. No one wants to destroy the world by climate change. Talk to a person, engage with them what they really want. Everybody wants to solve this problem. We've just got to empower everybody. Here's the information, here's what to do, and we can get it done.

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Tom Rivett-Carnac: Amazing. Paul, thank you for 20 years of work on this. Thank you for a big impact on my own career on behalf of all of us. Very good luck. Excited to see what's next. And thanks so much for taking the time.

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Paul Dickinson: Thank you, dear friend.

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): Thank you, dear friend.

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Clay (podcast producer): Hey, everyone, this is Clay back in the studio. What a great conversation, and thank you to Paul Simpson for joining us on the podcast this week. You can connect with Paul online, links to his social media, and of course, links to CDP in the show notes, cdp.net. As promised, credits this week are being done by Paul Simpson himself. Can't wait for you to hear that in just a moment. But first, our musical guest for this week is Our Man In The Field. I'll hand it over now to Alex from the band to introduce the song and answer our world famous podcast question, as you all know. Have a great week or weekend, everyone, and we'll see you soon. Here's Alex.

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Alex (musician guest, Our Man In The Field): I'm Alex and my band is called Our Man In The Field. The song you're about to hear is called Thin I Used To Be Bullet Proof, and it's about the changing perceptions of what a good role model is. It's about my father and how he never got to enjoy the benefits of his work in life. Now, for a long time, I thought his generation and mine were very different. But then once my own son was born, how I understood my dad a lot better and his motivations. And I wondered if he'd have done things differently, had he known that he wouldn't have got to enjoy the fruit of his labor. And so to the question of what outrages me about climate change, it's that climate change denial is still given an equal space and equal platform to fact and science. We rarely see debates about different solutions to climate change. It's always is there climate change or is it nonsense or is something else going on? And it slows everything down. It would be nice if we could just unanimously agree that this is happening. But what makes me optimistic is that whereas older generations who you can sort of understand because they grew up trusting newspapers and television news, because there were standards in life and standards meant something. And they believe that if somebody is on television or in a broadsheet newspaper, then they must be important and they must be validity to what they've got to say. What gives me optimism is whenever I work with or speak to younger people, they see straight through it. It cuts no ice and they reject it entirely. Thankfully, those young people will be in charge soon. Two, three, four.

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Paul Simpson (guest, outgoing CEO of CDP): So there you go, another episode of Outrage and Optimism. This is Paul Simpson doing the credits. I'd like to thank so many people, in fact, everybody, but let's just say Tessa Tennant for the inspiration and the can-do attitude. Our co-founder, the late Tessa Tennant, the mover and shaker in response to investment in the UK and globally. The Dutch entrepreneur, Eckhart Vincent, a mentor to mine who had the wisdom to write me a cheque for 11,000 pounds in May 2001 and say, go and work for CDP for six months. I can leave my temp job in finance to Paul Dickinson for the professional marriage we've had for 21 years, but more seriously, the friendship, the challenge, you've always been there for me and I know you always will be, you're getting all cheesy now. I always will. To Jeremy Smith for creating a nickname for every single person we ever met and making therefore you never forget their names. Very, very clever and sending Magnus of Champagne when he failed to come and stuff the envelopes. Jeremy, to my amazing business partner, executive assistant, Juliana, who has just been my right arm, left leg and wise guidance, to the board, the staff, there are 560 people who work at CDP and approximately, he's a wild guest, a thousand alumni, all the people in the companies, all the people in the investors, all the people in the governments, all the coaches I've had who have challenged me and given me wisdom, and ultimately to every single person who wants to take action on climate change. Thank you.