307: Trump’s War on Climate - and Maggie Baird on food justice and plant-based touring with Billie Eilish

Tom : [00:22:59] I did, I did. So last week I went to the Co-op live arena in Manchester, which I've been to a few times. The Climate Pledge is one of the key sponsors. I went with my kids to see the Billie Eilish concert and while I was there, I took the chance to sit down with Maggie Baird. And Maggie is an actor, a singer songwriter and a producer. She's also Billie Eilish and Finneas mum. So she travels around the world with them and works very closely, particularly on their concerts, the co-op live arena. I don't know if any of you have been there, but you know, it's like 30,000 people. The whole place went completely plant based while Billie Eilish was playing these 4 or 5 nights. That's all the work of Of Maggie. She goes around the world showing people that it's possible to eat in a different way. With this initiative she founded called Support and Feed, which tackles climate change and food insecurity. At the same time, she is an advocate for food justice and for climate systemic change in food policy and looks a lot. And there's a recent Anderson Cooper documentary that came out that will put in the show notes, which she featured in, along with Billie talking about what they're doing in their shows. And she's been a very powerful public voice on sustainability Activism as well as parenting, culture and behavior change. We had a great conversation just ahead of the show, so we'll go to that now. Maggie, so lovely to see you. Thanks for taking time.

Maggie Baird: [00:24:25]  [00:24:25]Thanks for [00:24:25] having.

Tom : [00:24:25] Me. We're here in Manchester. It's the opening night of Billy's tour here at the Co-op Live Arena this evening. And I'd love to just kick off by asking you to reflect a little bit about this moment. I mean, in many ways, it's the best of times and the worst of times, right? With technology, many of the solution costs have come down. We've seen awareness rise. Politics has lagged to sort of, say the least, in terms of where we are. And also we now have all these other existential crises that are clamoring for our attention. So you are so many things, but you're a storyteller as much as your other things. I'd love to hear you reflect on what kind of stories do we need to tell at this moment to help us come together and meet the big challenges?

Maggie Baird: [00:25:07] Well, that is a large Question.

Tom: [00:25:10] I told you we were starting.

Maggie Baird: [00:25:11] But it was a large time. I think it's a really overwhelming time, and I think we're kind of all struggling with what kind of stories we tell. You know, I, I think we do have to keep telling the positive stories and the story of the fact that we know the solutions, that we literally have all the answers so that if we can turn the tide in other ways, people understand there's somewhere to go. So I think we really have to keep telling that story. I do think we have to keep hope alive. But I do think it's important for people to understand the severity of the situation. And I think we have possibly the last few years, gone a little further into the hope and a little less into the potential nightmare. And now it's a little bit. We have to we have to get people to really connect the dots, understand that all the extreme weather events, how they're you know, I think one thing that's interesting to me is that for so many years when we talked about climate change. We had to explain to people that we weren't just talking about weather because they'd be like, well, so what? Hot weather. So what? It's cold today. You know, they never. And so you'd say, well, climate change, the climate crisis isn't about weather today. Today. But now, of course, it is about weather because it has created the extreme weather. And so now we have to change the storytelling a little bit to say, connect this and understand what why it's happening.

Maggie Baird: [00:26:35] So I think we have to be better about that. We have to be better about supporting people through these moments. You know, what are we offering them? Because we're not prepared, you know, we're not prepared. And also what I've seen is that while we're dealing with the major events that are happening, fires, floods, tornadoes, we're kind of answering sometimes with the same strategies, instead of adapting our emergency response strategies as well, which we can get to when we talk about support and feed. But for example, if you're you're suddenly have to feed tens or hundreds of thousands of people and now you're feeding them the same food that has gotten us part of the reason we've gotten there in the same place, you know. So we have to adapt to our emergency strategies as well. So and then for all the other major conflicts in the world, I think we have to keep also connecting the dots, right? Connecting the dots to war and conflict and how that affects our climate, how migration affects our climate. You know, every issue we have has a tie in to it, you know, and how can we help people understand that? And, you know, understand the real serious threat we're facing, but how we have to keep that alive through all the other issues because it is affecting all those issues. There's a lot of storytelling. It's really a lot of storytelling. And I think we have to get better at trying to learn how behaviors change. You know how we tell our stories.

Tom : [00:28:09] You mentioned that the impact of extreme weather. I mean, I know that you nearly lost your home this year.

Maggie Baird: [00:28:14] Well, we were in the area, we were evacuated. We were on evacuation warning. Some of our family members were evacuated for the week. And many, many, many, many of our friends lost their homes.

Tom : [00:28:25] Okay, so you lived through that and looking at it from here, right from 9000 miles away, it certainly felt like this could be one of the moments when the penny drops for the US and we realize, and yet the story is about how die means there's no water in the fire trucks. I mean, how how did we lose that so badly at that moment? Because it feels like those extreme weather events that come along. Many of us thought when that happened, then we would realize right all the way back to Katrina. But it doesn't seem to be happening. Is that just because we're not telling the right stories? Is there something else going on?

Maggie Baird: [00:28:58] I think what happens in the moment, it's a little bit like the, See, I hate to say the mass shootings in the US, you know, and the thoughts and prayers. You know, I think there's this attitude that in the moment of a tragedy, you must only talk about the personal toll, and you must only talk about, like, what those people are going through and what help they might need. And it's not the time to talk about what caused it, what went wrong, what we could do. Same thing with the floods in Texas. You know, very, very similar. Like really just deal with the human tragedy. But it's like if we only deal with human tragedy every time, we never address the change. It's been extremely frustrating in Los Angeles, honestly, to obviously there's always people talking about climate crisis and how that played into the nightmarish scenario, but it's definitely not enough and it's definitely not on the forefront. It's definitely not the main thing people talk about, but I think because humans have a like tendency to, like, overcome in a good way. Right? We survived this. We got through it. And you know, when you see the giant storm, sometimes the next day, it looks completely fine.

Maggie Baird: [00:30:07] And so human nature is designed to overcome and come back, but we have to get people to go like that's going to come back. It's going to be very soon. There's a reason it happened, not just have that kind of will of fortitude, you know, to survive, but understand that could have been avoidable and it will happen again. And that's the message I think we're missing. And you know, that saying, which everyone quotes is just so right. And I don't want to misquote it, but about, you know, it will be story told in a series of stories from your phone until you're the one holding the phone. You know, that's the best analogy you can give because it's true. It's like it's happening somewhere in the world, right? As we speak right now, someone is experiencing it and potentially losing their life or their family or their home. And eventually it will be us. But if we, you know, always keep it as a like, we will survive, then we're never going to fix it.

Tom : [00:31:06] It's such a good point. I wonder also if there's like a threat response takes us in the wrong direction. Yeah. Previously, an army comes over the hill and we, like arm ourselves for a response. Maybe, but now the best. You know, when you get an extreme weather event, most people don't say, well, I better change my diet and elect better public servants. Right. They say, let's build a wall and protect what I still have.

Maggie Baird: [00:31:26] That is so true. That's such a good point. Yeah. And also, I think when you are the survivor or let's say even the family of a victim, your immediate response is, yeah, to kind of protect yourself and do whatever. You're certainly not going to go in that state like, oh, today is the day I changed my diet. And, you know, get solar put on my remaining house, you know. But that's what we need to do.

Tom : [00:31:48] So that brings us to how you connect those different issues and the ways in which you reach out. And I have to say, whenever I talk to somebody like this, particularly from the US, but from wherever. What they often say at some point is we need a liberal Joe Rogan, or we need like that side of things. Do you buy that argument?

Maggie Baird: [00:32:04] Oh gosh, that's a good question. I mean, what does Joe Rogan do? He pushes people's buttons, right? And he preys on their secret thoughts or suspicions. Right. And so yeah, maybe we do. I mean, you know, one thing I think is really baffles me. And I've had, you know, people explain it to me maybe some ways. But, you know, why are people so much more willing to buy into a crazy conspiracy theory then the things that are actually happening that are so much more dramatic, in fact. So Joe Rogan prays on that. So I don't know if that's translatable, like if you're. But I do think if we did have somebody who was so compelling, but there are compelling people, you know, there's so many climate activists are super compelling. So what is it missing? Is it the anger factor? Because I feel like there's plenty to be angry about.

Tom : [00:32:56] Or is it the fact that there's more fragmentation on that side of the argument? There's little buckets, there's purity testing, there's all these different things. So it's harder for something to cut across. No one can meet all of those needs in the subcultures.

Maggie Baird: [00:33:10] Well, I would not be the first to say that, you know, the circular firing squad of the left is the worst thing that we have. You know, the purity test, it's it's the worst thing we have. But, you know, I had a discussion with somebody else the other day because he accused me of a purity test, and I was like, well, I think you were spreading disinformation. So that's quite tricky because. Because in the climate space there's a lot of greenwashing, right? And people buy into a lot of things that are like, maybe there's a kernel of truth in there, but is that really where we should be spending our money and time? And people will fully go to that because whatever that theory is, they're like, oh, I love that one. And you're like, yeah, but there's a lot of misinformation in there, right? So is it a purity test to call out that misinformation? Or is it like we have to call it out? So, you know.

Tom : [00:33:57] But what you've highlighted there is the difficulty of building something that feels coherent and big, right? Because there's all of these different sub bits. And, and in your work, both in the music industry and others, you have been really working out. How do you speak to big audiences? I would say, what would you say you've learned around how you speak to big audiences, particularly young people?

Maggie Baird: [00:34:19] It certainly helps when the artist is is authentic, right? But we don't want every artist to have to be the perfect model to be able to help their fans get somewhere. You know, I think the small steps kind of thing is really effective. I mean, I have definitely learned, you know, it's it's hard to get people to have one plant based meal a day, right? So for us who are like, well, you know, if everyone of privilege, everyone who has access to food could make the choice to eat more plant based food, less animal agriculture. That would make a huge difference. But it also makes a huge difference if even a larger number of people, you know, everyone just ate one meal a day. So I've, I've definitely learned that it's way more effective to give people actual strategies they can use that are not too hard for them, and then you have to give them the tools to do it. And of course, we have to not put so much pressure on individuals when we know the big corporations and the government have so much bigger impact. But we also know they're part of the story. So like it's a balancing. But I think meeting people and making them feel empowered, like say we do know the strategies. We do know that scientists tell us without equivocation that this is an effective thing to do. And here's how you can be a part of it and then give them the tools and make it doable.

Tom : [00:35:39] But also, I think what you're talking around there with people is around a sense of agency. And I think that's one of the big killers in climate actions. We all feel we all we'll feel hopeless, like we can't do anything. And much of the narrative takes our power away right where we're expected to engage. But we're told we're powerless. And those two different things end up being very confusing. So you've given the example there of like, give people something they can do, and plant based diets is a really good one. Would you say agency is that keen? What else have you seen that makes people feel empowered?

Maggie Baird: [00:36:10] Well, I think that I think you hit on something with the agency of making them even know and then arming them with the whys. And I think why the disinformation part is really important to talk about is because we have an entire culture that is being bombarded with mis and disinformation, and it's really hard to sort it out, and it comes into your feed and comes into your world. And so you have to help people have find trusted sources, I think, where you go. And that's why an artist can be important, because they're like, I'm pretty sure Billy's mom won't lie to me, you know what I mean? And then I have a lot of responsibility.

Tom : [00:36:49] All right. Yeah.

Maggie Baird: [00:36:50] Yeah. You have a lot of responsibility because you have to go. Like, we really have to be careful what we say. And and we have to temper it a little bit. And by the way, if we go a little wrong, it's a headline. Literally a headline. Not just a headline if we go wrong, but like a headline, even if you're doing the right thing, which can be a little bit overwhelming because then how do you keep saying things without when you know everything is a headline? But I think giving people I think people really want opportunity to be involved. You know, this idea that we have this epidemic of loneliness and, you know, I think people with support and feed one of the great things and I think our eco villages that really show the volunteer factor is so important. I think if we had many, many more volunteer opportunities for people and people to kind of get together and do positive action, that not only makes you feel empowered, obviously you're doing a great thing at the same time. But we have to overcome this epidemic of loneliness and this disconnected feeling, and there's nothing that makes you feel better than doing something for a bigger cause.

Tom : [00:37:56] So I'd love to talk about support and feed. I mean, we'll be at the show tonight and it'll all be plant based. We came to the show four years ago in London with all plant based. Then just tell us a bit about that, where it came from and what you're trying to achieve with it.

Maggie Baird: [00:38:07] Well, we started way back in 2020. That was our first tour where we really had a lot of buy in for not only what we fed our crew, but with the arenas. And one thing I'll say is that we've really been a strategy that I think other people can take is that when I started with Billie in the music industry, there was a lot of shocking things to me, you know, and, and obviously there's been amazing people working on sustainability for decades. But the general overall kind of thing you were fed was not great. Of course, we were in small little clubs, you know, she was playing 100 cap room, 200 cap room. So I kind of saw it all. So I think what we did was we just constantly asked questions like, why is it like this? Why can't we do this? Could we do this? Could we make this happen? And of course, we got a lot of no's for a while. But then you start to get yeses and then you get hooked up with people who have the answers. And, you know, we work with this place called reverb. They help us on our touring. But even everyone, our agents and booking agents started to get it. And so our booking agents and our and our Live Nation, everyone just started to reach out and say they want plant based food in the arenas. And we kind of made a requirement, I think, in 2020, 22 or never. We came home after three days because you know why? Um, 2022 we really succeeded.

Maggie Baird: [00:39:28] Oh two went fully plant based. It was amazing. But every arena had to have at least one fully plant based main item. So not peanuts. Not popcorn. Right. And but the O2, by the way, in 2022 had an 8% increase in their sales, which was during Billy's shows. So that was really good. And so on this tour we required at least three mains, but many, many arenas really took up the challenge themselves, went fully plant based and not just really plant based, but had amazing local specialties and like really creative food. Like I was like, wow, that's like going to a restaurant, you know, all over the arena. So I think if we were trying to give people like hope, which we certainly need some of. Well, I think what's hopeful to me is that we have a lot of power on our own without government. Right, because corporations can do it. And if an artist can do it and a venue can do it. And part of our mission was important. Feed. Well, really our primary mission is to address intersectionality, food, climate, social justice. Right. And so if you're going to feed 100,000 people, 10,000 to 100,000, in an arena or stadium. If you make that food delicious, but also largely, if not entirely, plant based. You can make this huge climate impact that is even more important than like everyone. You know, there's your one meal a day for everyone in that arena.

Tom : [00:40:58] 800,000 people then understand that it's delicious food. I mean, who knows the change that makes in their lives?

Maggie Baird: [00:41:04] You're opening a door. You're making it. You're just changing culture. One of the things that gives me the most hope is the fact that places like arenas, stadium conferences. Now, let's be honest, they're really slow to do it, right. But we're seeing people do it. And that kind of impact is really, really, really big.

Tom : [00:41:25] And you've really hit on this. Food is one of the primary ways into people's experience with the world in general. And if you can connect that to broader issues, you make a lot of progress.

Maggie Baird: [00:41:33] Every day we eat, we eat whether we want to eat, we have to eat every day, right?

Tom : [00:41:39] So we get a lot of questions on our original optimism from parents not knowing how to talk to their kids about climate. And it's obviously a difficult issue. One of the interesting things about your journey is you've raised two kids who've then gone into the music industry, where a lot of people kind of lose themselves, and they haven't, and they've remained true to their values and they prioritize these things. What do you say when you're asked that question about how do you talk to kids and help them feel to go back to that issue of agency, to help them feel a sense of agency, to grow up in a world and use their platform, whatever it is, to make a change.

Maggie Baird: [00:42:12] Yes. And by the way, it can be any platform. You know, I think it's important for people to go, where do you work? Where do you work out? Where do you, you know, where do you go to at night? You could take agency on any of those places, you know, and you could make your world more sustainable. It doesn't have to be an arena or whatever. I think parents have to model it. I think that makes a lot of difference and model that these I mean, you know, I mean, my kids still roll their eyes at me because I'm forever, like boycotting this company or you know what I mean? Like, you know, I'm like, I'm not doing that anymore. I'm, you know, and they're like, yeah, you're going to make a difference. I go, I, I have to live with myself, you know?

Tom : [00:42:55] Right. Yeah.

Maggie Baird: [00:42:56] And so I think, you know, I mean, if I could tell the funny thing to me is like, people are like, oh, you're filming me. This sounds cool. You know how many eye rolls I've gotten for literally decades about all of the things we do, you know, I mean, my kids, first of all, love our Christmas. But the first few years when I was like, we have no more paper wrapping, everything is in these beautiful cloth bags that I sewed with ribbons. We use them every year now. They're magical to them and they love them. But in the beginning they're like, we can't shred the paper, you know? And these sounds so small and insignificant. But when you multiply these.

Christiana and Paul: [00:43:33] You inherently want to provide things to your kids. It's a it's a journey for yourself as well.

Maggie Baird: [00:43:37] It is and so I think first of all, modeling like we can make these changes in our life and these when when added up with everyone else will make a difference. I think it's really scary right now. It's really scary to talk about kids because, you know, used to be, you know, if we don't change by blank, if we reach 1.5, you know, all those kind of like in the future things, well, they're all here. So now how do you talk about it? Because I think now you have to talk about preparedness. I think the mental gymnastics we're all having to do now to learn to be able to be here, and then it's modeling it, maybe doing family activity. We have a lot of people who volunteer for support and feed with their kids, even if it's just delivering meals to people. But I think modeling in your own house, talking about it, talking about the power of numbers, going to protests, honestly, like, you know, No writing signs about it. Watching documentaries.

Tom : [00:44:33] Right. And it's that pathway to agency as well that you talk about that.

Tom : [00:44:36] Yeah. Maggie, I'm going to let you go in a second. I just want to, um, we've had a really interesting conversation about agency and engagement, and I would love to hear you speak, particularly as you look at storytelling and the groups that you reach out to. Tell us something that makes you outraged and something that makes you optimistic.

Maggie Baird: [00:44:53] Something that makes me outraged, to be honest, is that the climate movement itself has been slow, so slow to address animal agriculture. That enrages me. You know, when people, people always say, what gives you hope? And I want to go, do you want to want to know what does not give me hope to go to a climate event and see beef and lobster? And on the menu I'm like, well, we are doomed. We are literally doomed. If the people who care the most and are spending their entire lives working on it, are not willing to make a simple change about what they eat. That drives me mad because we are almost all activists of privilege. Obviously, there's many activists who are not, but the fact that we can't change our own diets at a climate event enrages me to the point I can barely go on. But what gives me hope is that the other question, the famous look is optimistic. Yeah, well, it is a little hard to be optimistic right now about the world, I think, because of all the you know, and I'm from the United States, this is a really bad time in the US. It is. I never dreamed in my wildest dreams that we would be in this nightmare that we're in, in the US. I mean, it is shameful and horrific and we don't know what to do, and we don't know how to make it stop. And, you know, and so we plug along. And the beautiful part of for my life is I have this amazing family and, and they have, you know, not only used their platform but helped me have a platform. And that really makes me feel optimistic meeting all these fans, you know. Seeing them take the change that make the change that does make me feel, you know, like we have a chance. I think learning about all the things that do exist, how, you know, we all I think I wonder about the tipping point, you know, knowing the fact that the tipping point is one of those things you kind of can't know if you're almost there, right?

Tom: [00:46:46] Yeah. Yeah.

Maggie Baird: [00:46:47] Well, that's a weird thing about it, right? Like, you don't know that you could actually be there, even though it really feels like you're nowhere near it. So I have this kind of hope that, you know, when I see the arena here or the O2 go fully plant based and all the fans and I, I see no plastic water bottles in the venue and I see, you know, single use, let's say I feel optimistic about that. I mean, I think I am deeply an optimist, but I would say the fact that what we do is support and feed is also direct action, right? So we're addressing the climate crisis by providing nourishing plant based meals to community organizations, primarily in food apartheid. So we're trying to address a cultural idea about feeding people that we can do more with a meal. We can also address the climate. We can address human health. We can give someone a soul enriching meal. We can address local economy by paying a fair wage. So we're trying to address that intersectionality. But at the heart of what we do, we feed people and we provide cooking classes and education. But when you feed people every day, you make someone's life better. And that direct action and how many volunteers, how many people want to volunteer? And just that is the thing that I feel optimistic about, because I know that our human hearts are generous and people want to do something. And it's really more and more, again, about providing people with the tools and the ability to be a part of the solutions and strategies that I think is going to make the difference.

Tom : [00:48:17] Maggie, thank you so much. That's a lovely message.

Maggie Baird: [00:48:20] I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Tom : [00:48:26] We were very sorry not to have the two of you with us in Manchester for this conversation, but it was lovely to, uh, to sit and talk to to Maggie. What did you both take from listening to that interview?

Christiana : [00:48:35] I was delighted by two things. First, the fact that this family as a whole has decided to use its public facing platform for these kinds of environmental, not just messaging, but actually role modeling, because they perfectly well could not have done that. So I think it is really fantastic to see that the whole family is doing this. And I was also really taken by the fact that she is just so down to earth, so humble. I mean, yeah, she is the mother of of Billie and Finneas, but she could be, you know, the fantastic woman walking down the street in front of my house. There is no sense of arrogance. There's no sense of, I don't know, supreme positioning there at all. It's just such a down to earth conversation from a very sincere, honest person. I was delighted with the tone of the conversation in addition to the content.

Paul: [00:49:39] It reminds me, actually, Christiane, a little bit of the Stella McCartney thing in reverse, where you know somebody in their own right who has a big career, Stella McCartney, and is very interested in sort of, you know, reducing use of animal products in clothing. And I think it was during the interview towards the end or afterwards that you discovered that she had a famous father, you know. So there are these there are these. It's really interesting to think about that. But there was another thing where great people were talking about trust, you know, in social media. That was a great conversation and how trust comes about. And that phrase, I'm pretty sure Billy's mum wouldn't lie to me. You know, this idea.

Tom: [00:50:12] That that was so powerful that.

Paul: [00:50:13] We sort of know it's a really sweet phrase. There is also, separately, another mentioned two eco villages, which is kind of close to my heart concept within the context of a sort of epidemic of loneliness that people are sort of suffering and thinking about, not just food. As this absolutely critical, foundational aspect of how we respond to climate change and, you know, reducing meat from diets, reducing the land area that's allocated to agriculture, thereby because it's so inefficient, but then also thinking about, well, you know, how people eat together and how we build community around what we eat is all extremely interesting. I had a delightful dinner in a vegetarian restaurant last night, and there is a slightly different vibe, to be honest, in a vegetarian restaurant I can't quite put my finger on it, but it's rather magical. So yeah, there's so much that she expresses and just this idea of using your, your platform, your family's platform to obviously do the incredible thing that you do. You know, she's an actress, a daughter, you know, a musician, entertainers of massive scale. To to touch upon another. Theme that's close to the heart. So it's almost kind of like. Rather than like you do activity A and then at the weekends you use a bit of money and fame to do activity Z, you kind of link them. And I think that's the genius really that I got from point.

Christiana : [00:51:29] Good point. Yeah.

Paul: [00:51:30] What about you, Tom? How did you know? I mean, you seem to have a wonderful chemistry.

Tom : [00:51:33] Yeah. No, I've known her for a while, and I have a lot of a lot of respect for her. And that authenticity that you talked about, Cristiano, I think is very much an evident and is is very impressive. I think that one of the things that it always makes me think about, when you see people who are willing to use their platforms in the way that they are, is why that's not more common in the world, and how different we could be if actually there were more people with culturally relevant platforms really using them with authenticity and integrity to try to create a better future. And it was interesting to hear her talk about, you know, the circular firing squad of the left, the fact that you need to kind of have these kinds of purity testing of, do you have the right to have a voice and all these other different pieces, and I think they've worked really hard to ensure, you know, the plant based concerts, the travelling with, with limited emissions as best they can, the merchandise they provide. But of course, it's always going to be imperfect. And I think one of the things that she was talking around there is I don't quite mean this, but in a way the least interesting thing about Billie Eilish and Finneas and that whole process is the emissions that come from the concerts. The most interesting thing is the 200 million people that follow and the ability to create a moment of cultural change. And yet we've gotten ourselves into a position where, even though they are willing to step in and lead, most artists are not. If you speak to most musicians, I mean, we talked to Ellie Goulding ages ago, she said. Every time I tweet about climate change, I lose 10,000 followers. And actually we haven't created a context in which, you know, culturally relevant figures can speak out and feel like it builds their identity and it builds their relevance in the world. And I would love to think more deeply about how we can change that, because I think it's a missed opportunity for all of us.

Christiana : [00:53:15] And it brings me back, Tom, to your fantastic momentum versus perfection episodes, because it is such a missed opportunity, as you say, for so many people to just throw themselves into the perfection bucket. Either it's perfect or it's terrible. Without pausing for a second and doing some self-reflection and honestly answering this question. Am I perfect, right? Yeah. It is simply a physical fact that just by being a human being, we have emissions. It's simply a fact. And of course, there are many who have so much more emissions than the average person, and they have therefore much more opportunity to reduce their emissions. But nobody is perfect. No one. And what we should all be called to and committed to, is to be on a constant improvement path with regard to our environmental responsibility from wherever we start.

Paul: [00:54:25] And culture changes. And I have said this before, so if people would like to complain, I'll stop repeating things. But 50 years ago, in 1974, there were 200 people on the Gay pride march in London, and it was on the front page of every newspaper. And in 2025, there were 200,000 people on the Gay pride march in London. And it's not reported in any newspaper. So things change. And leadership involves different stages and and changing a culture that is a painful process. And I think so much of Ellie Goulding losing her 10,000 followers. But there's a part of me believes she'll get 100,000 more when the when the music has changed a little.

Tom : [00:55:05] I agree with all of that. I also think the other thing which strikes me about it is the sort of what did you do to give you the right to have a platform is, first of all, a very reductionist narrative. And it's always about what did you do in the past? Whereas what can we do to change the future is a forward looking conversation. And I think the interesting thing becomes the forward looking. How do we build momentum? What can we do now rather than how do we pick apart what's happened until this point, and which is why it feels more generative and exciting when you can look further forward?

Paul: [00:55:34] I mean, there was a very old conflict that I'm not even going to bother talking about, but I heard two people each arguing with each other, saying they knew more about the history of the conflict. And I and I knew that that was never going to go anywhere. We have to look towards the future and the opportunities rather than argue over the past and and what's gone wrong.

Tom: [00:55:53] Yeah.

Tom : [00:55:54] Wonderful. All right. Lovely to be back with you. Nice to see you both. We will be back next week. Thanks for joining us this week. See you soon.

Christiana and Paul: [00:56:01] Bye. See you next week.