167: We Like To Call It Piñata Syndrome

Paul: [00:32:04] And by the way, you know, Jacob Rees-Mogg, who is our newly minted in the UK Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, said this week he's going to lift all moratorium on fracking and he's going to extract every drop of oil from the North Sea. Now, we do require politicians to set a tone and to use their platform and their voice to responsibly move our society forward. And I'm sorry to say that despite the difficulty with energy prices now that language is not helpful. And Jacob Rees-Mogg has voted consistently against climate change action in the House of Commons. And we have a disturbing problem there. I got to admit it.

Tom: [00:32:52] Disturbing problem is the understatement of the century. I mean, he's a sort of Harry Potter esque villain, isn't he? He's kind of going around and, you know, waking up all the death eaters and trying to destroy the forces of light. I mean, it's just a disaster.

Paul: [00:33:03] Yeah, but look out for these Harry Potter type, you know, Steve Bannon type unusual characters because, you know, either Steve Bannon with his kind of like semi military look or or Rees-Mogg with his big lapels and his his sort of affiliation with the previous centuries, they're creating populist profiles that quite quickly could turn incredibly nasty. By the way, I've just been told by Clay that Steve Bannon is in custody, so that's not the worst thing in the world.

Tom: [00:33:29] So let's just let's just stay here for a minute, because we've raised a few important issues here. And I'd love to just pose a question to you both, which is I spend a lot of time with various hats that I'm wearing at the moment, engaging with the Egyptian COP 27 presidency team, with the African Union ministers who are now trying to sort of work out how do they move forward and try to implement their climate commitments. And what I consistently hear from them behind closed doors is actually kind of disturbing because it's we want to now develop gas. We are in a situation where we need energy. Energy prices have spiked. We're either importing a certain amount of energy and we now want to be able to be given the freedom to be given financial resources to invest in developing gas so that we can drive down the cost of energy. How do we respond to that? Because I struggle with it, in all honesty, because in those situations, we're at a point where I don't feel like I have the moral authority to stand up to that and say no. At the same time, I'm aware that that's a trap that's being opened up, that's going to draw those countries in the medium term into deeper poverty, because the gas price will drop and they'll have invested and borrowed money to try to invest. So how do we try and put our arms around this quite difficult issue at the moment because that frenzy you just described it gas to Christiana of those developers and fossil fuel companies, they're all out trying to lobby these governments to develop their gas fields and to invest more in gas. But we in the climate movement who are trying to find a way through this are increasingly caught in the middle. So let's just try and put our arms around that moral conundrum around what we're supposed to do with all of this.

Christiana: [00:35:05] No, it's absolutely true. And there. Is a very scary panel on gas tech with ministers of energy of of African countries plus the minister of energy of India in which that was exactly the point. We want to develop more gas because. Well, because of the pinata syndrome. Right. And and this makes a lot of sense. So we've talked about this before on the on the podcast. It is not easy to stand up to developing countries and say, no, no, no. You know, the North developed with their fossil fuels. But now you coming quite a few decades later, you're not allowed to develop with with any fossil fuels. You have to incur the the risk and the cost of moving over to other other fuels. Very, very difficult situation where we might be able to find some perhaps some, some midway is to say, okay, the gas that is already there, this is the thing. Right? Many of them want more gas, more drilling, more exploitation. But from the IEA, we know that we have enough gas. So the gas that is already there, that has already been extracted, that is already out of the ground, that gas can very likely be used and very probably will be used on if we go to Africa now on the coastlines of Africa, in cities that have high concentrations of population and high industry, because that is what they need. And however, if you invest into more infrastructure, which is what they were talking about, they were actually even talking about a pipeline that crosses the entire continent. Yeah. Who's going to finance that? Yeah, who is going to finance that? So that, I think is the danger when it is promised to them that they will have or when they're lobbying the financial institutions to get credit to incur these incredible debts for absolutely crazy infrastructure projects that assume that there is a growing demand.

Christiana: [00:37:19] That is the piece that we have to really, really understand. There is no growing demand. This frenzy is there, because there is a need to diversify the supply of gas now that Europe is not buying from Europe, Russia and anyone else. So let's think about it. Right. The gas that Russia has been supplying, let's think about that as the envelope. And that envelope is now being filled by everyone who wants a part of that envelope. And that's the frenzy. But outside that envelope, there is no growth in demand. Yeah, that's the piece that we really have to understand. So this frenzy, it's not like all of a sudden there's more demand and we have to produce more. No, actually, demand for gas has already peaked. What they're filling in their frenzied pinata mode is the supply that Russia is not producing or producing, but not being able to sell. That's a different story. That's a very different story. But to go from there to assuming that there is growth in demand over the next five, ten or 15 years is absolutely crazy. And to indebt yourself as a country into very expensive infrastructure, assuming that there's a growth of demand and that you will be able to pay your debt is absolutely crazy.

Paul: [00:38:41] Yeah. And just like a word for people at home about large pinatas, because there was a big one at my work once. And if you use boiled sweets, you can actually nearly cause a serious injury, which I almost did to a colleague of mine. But look, I think on top of every word that Christiana says, which I agree with entirely, let's not forget the bombshell or since we last spoke, the Inflation Reduction Act, a 369 billion with a B, a £369 billion dollar.

Christiana: [00:39:08] Wait, that's a positive bombshell.

Paul: [00:39:09] That's a positive, positive.

Tom: [00:39:10] Bombshell.

Paul: [00:39:11] Commitment by the US Government through low taxes and.

Tom: [00:39:16] To be distributed by our friend John Podesta. He's been on this podcast.

Paul: [00:39:18] Exactly. He was on the podcast just the other week, you know, paving the way for low carbon technologies that actually in many ways paves the way for carbon tax. I think what the gas industry is not is failing to understand completely. And and of course, they won't because they're called the gas industry. It's like the cigarette industry will never fail to understand that cigarettes. You know, but my my point is that the investment in alternative technologies, renewable energy and all the rest of it is now at such a fever pitch and there is such certainty of increasing legislation against greenhouse gas emissions and will come onto that, that inevitably this pinata moment where these companies are drill, drill, drill, building pipeline after pipeline, it's insane because we know that the same business case that funds. It is confusing. And Jacob Rees-Mogg, for example, is the business case that makes renewables, which are extraordinarily cheap, ever more competitive, ever more interesting, and of course, quite beyond two possible negatives. Renewables are beyond political interference, as we're discovering, with a nightmare with the invasion of Ukraine and Vladimir Putin. And they are also beyond future taxation and regulation of greenhouse gas emissions. So there is no case for doing anything with gas unless you absolutely have to. By the way, we've got this kind of tough winter coming up in Europe. I think there should be rationing. I think people should be dressing up warm and and taping up their windows for a year or two. There is a war in Europe at the moment. Gas is being used as a weapon. We should not be afraid to respond to citizens and with our governments recognise that sometimes things are important. Yeah.

Tom: [00:41:00] Yeah. And the fact that we're not taking that route is kind of demoralising, right, to be honest with you, that the UK, the new UK, because the German government is doing this and sort of making signals, say we've got to manage demand, we're going have to think about how do we deal with the peaks in the UK. We're saying there's no problem, we'll just buy down the additional delta based on the fuel price rise. It's going to cost the public purse $120 Billion. That money will simply be transferred from taxpayers to fossil fuel companies to pay for this increasing price. I mean, it's ridiculous that that's happening. And certainly some kind of support, as you've indicated, should be provided. But this is not the way in which we're going to deal with that. And right now they're talking about, as you say, taking every drop from the North Sea while offshore wind is nine times cheaper than gas. It's completely through the looking glass.

Paul: [00:41:46] I would love to see something whereby people can actually get like paid for cutting their emissions enormously. You know, it's extraordinary what can be achieved with things like draught exclusion. You know, it may not be very, very nice to look at, but sellotape can do extraordinary things to cut your energy bill. But I digress slightly. So I've got other bits of great news. But go.

Tom: [00:42:03] Ahead. No, no, no, go for it.

Paul: [00:42:05] So things that I've just like I've spit left field here, but let's not forget. All right. Australia has set greenhouse gas reduction targets into law. Well done, Australian Parliament. Well done. RTL, Canada.

Tom: [00:42:16] That didn't look very likely just a year ago. Right. So that is to be hugely celebrated.

Paul: [00:42:20] Yeah, but how about this one? This is the one that.

Christiana: [00:42:23] Hold on, this is the moment to drop in that we are working on a very exciting episode.

Paul: [00:42:29] Exciting episode.

Christiana: [00:42:30] Yeah. The drill down into Australia with some of the teal.

Tom: [00:42:34] Not the happiest.

Paul: [00:42:35] Place to drill.

Tom: [00:42:36] Down. Don't say drill. Drill.

Christiana: [00:42:37] Yes, thank you. Thank you. I stand corrected.

Paul: [00:42:41] We're going to beam light into Australia.

Christiana: [00:42:43] There you go.

Paul: [00:42:43] There you go. But look, how about this? Advertising bans France on the 22nd of August became the first European country to ban advertisements for fossil fuels. Think about that for a minute. The Dutch city of Haarlem has become the first city to ban meat advertising. That's fantastic. Yeah, really? Both of these came out.

Christiana: [00:43:04] Can you say that again? To ban meat advertising.

Paul: [00:43:06] In public places?

Christiana: [00:43:07] That's just brilliant. Well.

Tom: [00:43:09] Because of the climate impact, right? That's what they said.

Paul: [00:43:11] Yeah, but they came out of citizen's assemblies. Do you know what? When you ask citizens, do you want propaganda paid to tell you to do the wrong thing? Citizens say, no, I'm not cool with that. So well done, France. Well done. The Dutch city of Haarlem.

Tom: [00:43:25] Do you got more on your good news barrel? Come on, let's hear it.

Paul: [00:43:28] Do you know I actually have. I think I got now. Actually, I've run out. Sorry.

Christiana: [00:43:34] No, we haven't got some.

Tom: [00:43:36] I got some.

Christiana: [00:43:36] India. We have India. We have Egypt. That's right.

Tom: [00:43:40] Tom. No, no. You said them, right? Exactly. India published a plan for the country's 2030 climate targets, cut emissions intensity by 45% by 2030. Egypt came out, published their plan ahead of hosting the COP this November with new goals for electricity generation and oil and gas sectors. It's actually been quite an interesting, active summer in terms of new policies and commitments from all types of different countries. Got a Brazilian election coming up that could be pretty exciting. Finally, get rid of Bolsonaro.

Paul: [00:44:08] That'd be good. That's a pretty crazy stuff out of Florida, by the way, ESG or environmental, social and governance, you know, looking thinking about the future when you invest has been kind of banned by Florida. The US presidential candidate, or he thinks he is Ron DeSantis. He said the ideological agenda of the ESG movement means that corporate power has increasingly been used to impose an ideological agenda. So I looked up in my dictionary what ideological means, and it means based on or relating to a set of ideas or beliefs. So Florida has made it law that you can't have ideas and you can't have beliefs. So good luck with that. And by the way, he's also a raging homophobe and he's passed this bill called Don't say Gay, whereby if teachers say that there are same sex couples, they can kind of go to prison, I think.

Tom: [00:45:02] Oh, my God.

Paul: [00:45:03] It's out of his mind. Florida is scary says Clay in the chat. Well, thank you Clay. True enough. So I got.

Christiana: [00:45:10] And it's going underwater.

Paul: [00:45:11] And it's going underwater. But I've still got one incredibly positive thing, which is the project. But first, Tom, you have something to say?

Tom: [00:45:17] No, no, no. Go for it.

Paul: [00:45:18] Okay, this is it. This is it. I think I'm running out.

Christiana: [00:45:20] Which is? What do you mean, the price? Is this the one that you were going to take up to the meeting that we did not go to?

Paul: [00:45:24] Yeah, that I've sent both you and Tom a detailed description of. And neither of you responded to me at all, which I think means.

Christiana: [00:45:31] That we have not understood.

Paul: [00:45:33] Okay, well, today is the day. Lucky you. Get comfortable.

Christiana: [00:45:37] We will see if we are. And here's the trick, Paul. In the studio, we have a live audience. So we're going to poll the live audience to see if they understand what you're just about to present. So good.

Tom: [00:45:50] Luck. Pay attention, live. Audience.

Paul: [00:45:52] Audience. Yeah, no, that's an interesting point. Okay, right. Fingers crossed. Here we go. We are. I am quite sure at a very special moment.

Christiana: [00:46:02] Where we are so far so good as a.

Paul: [00:46:04] Movement. Thank you.

Tom: [00:46:05] Excellent idea, Paul.

Paul: [00:46:07] I'm fully instructed interruptions are helping as well, because I think they're building something in me. I'm not sure what it is, but it's very good. We are at a moment where our movement can achieve unprecedented successes in the legislative realm. I'm talking here about policy. This could be financial support like the Inflation Reduction Act. It could be taxation of greenhouse gas emissions, a carbon price. It could be regulation phasing out internal combustion engines. Why am I so confident that we can now suddenly get the regulations that we never had before? Here's why. Studio Audience.

Christiana: [00:46:42] Drumroll the dune to.

Henry: [00:46:44] Dune.

Paul: [00:46:45] You may not be aware. I actually have. I can't look at you because I have to talk at the mic. But imagine I'm looking. Imagine I'm looking at you. You may not be aware that more than 3000 of the world's biggest companies have set what are called science based targets. And this means that they've committed to reducing in line with the science. And most of the world's investors, led ably by former governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, $130 trillion of investors have committed to net zero by 2050. Net zero by 2050 is about the same thing as science based targets. It's kind of the same thing.

Christiana: [00:47:21] But I don't hear a project here yet.

Paul: [00:47:24] But people are saying, people are saying, oh, they say this, but do they really mean it? Is it greenwash? Is it really going to happen? And the honest truth is it's going to happen or it's not going to happen depending on whether we have the policies to make it happen or not make it happen.

Christiana: [00:47:40] Okay.

Paul: [00:47:40] So the point being.

Christiana: [00:47:42] So far so good.

Paul: [00:47:43] The most powerful institutions in the world have put themselves forward and said, we're going to do this. And then these are the lions, the lion corporations and the tiger investors, and then the little mouse governments are now kind of like, Well, do you really mean it? And the truth is, it's up to the mouse governments now to pass those laws that we need to reduce emissions at 7% a year. Now, the other thing that's changed is and we've been discussing this, so let's just remind ourselves, energy prices have gone crazy because of the invasion of Ukraine. So the business case for decarbonisation is never been higher. And extreme weather, as we were just discussing, has frightened everyone in the whole world. So they're ready to vote and support politicians and governments who solve this problem.

Tom: [00:48:31] So I'm liking the sort of the hand gesture which sort of like.

Paul: [00:48:34] Everything is aligned now and we are going to get the taxation and regulation we need if we focus like we've never focused before, now's the time. And so I turn to the studio audience and ask you to speak loudly. Do you understand what I just said?

Christiana: [00:48:50] No, but wait a second. What's the project?

Paul: [00:48:53] The project is for us to recognise collectively the climate change movement, to be fully engaged. And there are very notable efforts being led by, for example, the Climate Champions Team and many NGOs who've been doing this for years, of course, but they're coming together a flotilla of ships, making a great armada with a single point, the the regulatory policy outcomes we require to reduce emission at 7% a year because the children are on strike and now we've got a chance to do something about it.

Christiana: [00:49:27] Okay, Paul, that's brilliant. But how is it different from the reality that we've had for the last six, seven, eight years?

Paul: [00:49:34] Honestly, we've never had all of business. Well, 90% of business and 90% of investors have staked their reputations on this outcome. But now they have, as they are called, to account in the public sphere. They are relied upon to deliver this legislative outcomes. Look, you know, I believe the citizens rule by the government, but the governments ruled by the corporations and the investors. But now we've got the corporations and the investments committing to something that only the government can achieve and therefore the door is now open.

Christiana: [00:50:05] Well, that may be one, if not the reason why there is now such a backlash on ESG and this whole woke capitalism conversation, because maybe there are other people that agree with you that we're in danger of succeeding and what they want is to stop progress. 

Paul: [00:50:24] 100%.

Christiana: [00:50:25] Do you think? 

Paul: [00:50:25] 100%

Christiana: [00:50:26] Maybe we have to look at this.

Tom: [00:50:27] Yeah, we do. That's a very good point. We should delve into where this pushback on ESG and work capitalism is coming from. But Paul, I completely agree with you. Right, that you have to get to a certain point. All of this is kind of the almost like the phoney war, right, where it's not the analysis it's gotten to this point. We haven't really gotten to the but the trouble is, how do you how do you gather that latent power and intentionality of the corporations and the investors and make it stick? I mean, just on this conversation, as far as I understand it, 80 to 90% of the FTSE 100 are covered by meaningful net zero targets. And yet Jacob Rees-Mogg, the business secretary, comes out and says, we're going to take every drop of oil from the North Sea and extract every bit of gas. I mean, it seems like the logical consistency between the two is not as tight as you've described or how do you make it tighter.

Paul: [00:51:16] That's our job. We have to make it tighter. We have to use those commitments. You know, and as you both know very well, I've spent 20 years of my life supporting corporations to think this through. Well, they've come to their conclusions now, and they're turning on the government and saying, well, it's up to you now. And the people are there. The people want this. And also the unbelievable fossil fuel prices mean that there's a perfect business case for it. It's it's us appreciating the authority is taken, not given. And this is our moment to take it and to be super confident, super ambitious, super focused in delivering the outcomes that we all know we need.

Tom: [00:51:55] Okay.

Paul: [00:51:55] Well, I'm going to turn over to the studio audience just to if you wanted to sort of shout at the top of your voices and say, Paul, yes, we understand. And you're right, perhaps.

Audience: [00:52:06] Yes, we understand. In your right. Yes, we understand.

Paul: [00:52:11] And you're right.

Christiana: [00:52:15] And you're right and Paul.

Paul: [00:52:16] Is right. So this is the studio audience.

Tom: [00:52:19] Just like Christina's niece and.

Christiana: [00:52:21] Friend.

Tom: [00:52:22] And Christina's friend is our studio audience in Paul's flat in north London. A unanimous approval for what Paul has managed.

Christiana: [00:52:29] Unanimous approval because if they don't approve, they don't get dinner.

Paul: [00:52:33] Pretty much it's just going to be expensive approval. But I think it's been very, very much worth. I appreciate you both. Thank you very much.

Tom: [00:52:38] I would encourage listeners to tweet with the hashtag, Where is Paul? And they can give us their answers.

Paul: [00:52:44] And maybe we'll.

Tom: [00:52:45] Get our third tweet out of you.

Paul: [00:52:47] The third tweet, I'm not racing towards that one. Twitter's a bit of a tough place at the moment. That's another whole story.

Tom: [00:52:53] So I know that we don't have forever, unfortunately, this podcast and maybe just what we should do now is for a few minutes just cast our minds to what's coming up. So we have obviously, as ever, a critical time of year with some very significant moments in it. It's now, as I said, the 9th of September. In just ten days, the world will be meeting at the UN General Assembly for what is known as UNGA, which is also called New York Climate Week.

Christiana: [00:53:17] Wait, Tom, can I just.

Tom: [00:53:19] Yeah.

Christiana: [00:53:20] Throw a little pebble into that?

Tom: [00:53:21] Sure.

Christiana: [00:53:22] That may be the same day that there is a very, very important funeral in London with a lot of pomp and circumstance where every head of state is going to want to be here and not in New York. What is New York going to do about that?

Tom: [00:53:39] So so in 11 days, the world will be meeting in New York in 11 days. I'm sure that's the case, Christiane, and I'm sure that UNGA, the UN General Assembly, will be pushed back, and I think it's going to be pretty big this year. I think that notwithstanding what you just said about the royal funeral, that will be happening on the 19th. I think the fact that the cop is in Egypt, that there will be a lower participation than can be the case when there are these cyclical, very big commitment. Cops means that people are more focused on UN General Assembly week. So that's going to be a big moment. We will all be there and we'll be bringing you podcast from that. Interestingly, I was speaking today to an investor, one of the largest investors in the world by assets under management, and they said that they view climate events as key priorities now for their C-suite because more CEOs go to that than go to any other type of conference. So if you want to see other CEOs, you go to a climate event, which I thought was an interesting indicator of where we've come to you based on where we've been a few years ago. Anything to say about UNGA and then we'll go on into COP?

Christiana: [00:54:38] No, it really is quite a crystal ball. A murky crystal, crystal ball whether I mean, UNGA obviously will we'll proceed with the usual participants, but whether anything that is actually usable in the sense that it might accelerate what needs to happen at the COP . Let's remember, we did not come with new national commitments last year and the governments gave themselves one more year. So this is it. And whether UNGA is going to help to bring that harvest of increased national commitments remains to be seen. And we know that Egypt is going to be placing a lot of a lot of importance on adaptation, on finance, probably, and on loss and damage, especially now Pakistan is chairing the G77 and after having one third of their territory underwater, they are, of course going to go for the loss and damage agenda. So mitigation probably not a very good not a very popular topic for the G77, for developing countries will be thrust onto the developed countries together, of course, with finance. So I'm I'm not sure that we're going to get the step up in efforts based on new national commitments that that we need. So still very concerning.

Paul: [00:56:18] And for those who missed the language, UNGA being the UN General Assembly, it was many years ago, I'm trying to think it was 13 years ago actually that the Climate Group noticed that the CDP launch events happened in the same week as the UN General Assembly for the previous years and therefore created Climate Week. And Climate Week, on the other hand, is where the non-state actors can get together alongside the national governments and say, Hey friends, this is a different world. We've all committed to do something about it. And quite possibly one part of the message, and I think it's an important part, is if you want to see private sector investment in your country, in your industry and your economies, then look towards the decarbonised future and not towards history. And actually those the bold are the commitments national governments make, the more likely they are to have. Strong and robust economies as the century progresses.

Tom: [00:57:13] And as a good point and also, Christiana, I would echo what you just said. Right. And as I say, I've been in a lot of these pre meetings for COP 27 and the tone in them and this is always the case and you can't blame people for this, but the tone in them is you develop countries have failed to deliver on 100 billion and how can you come here and lecture us now that we should be stepping up with more ambition? And you could understand why that's the case, but it it doesn't bode well for more mitigation at this point. And they're right, you know, they're absolutely right morally to stand in that position and say the finance has not been forthcoming and that's indefensible and it needs to be as part of the global deal and how we're going to advance. So. Simon Steil, the new UNFCCC executive secretary who just took office a few days ago. Patricia Espinosa Successor. Patricia Espinosa, of course, being Christiana's successor is a great leader and is a very impressive person that I think we would share this position. Christiana we have high hopes for in that role, but my God, he's got his work cut out.

Christiana: [00:58:18] Yeah, absolutely.

Paul: [00:58:19] And it may be that there's some genius to drafting your nationally determined contribution that helps solicit the investment whereby the private sector may meet the the shortcomings in the intergovernmental payment system. I'm not wishing to make light of that chronic failure by rich governments towards the developing economies. Tom But I'm just saying that this is a race to build the economy of the future. And actually governments have an extraordinary role in creating the conditions for that.

Tom: [00:58:49] They do, and I'm sorry I keep coming back to this, but in these meetings I keep going to the number that I've heard repeated most often. And I don't know who did this analysis is that only 6% of climate finance is grants and 60% is debt. Now, we can argue that actually that gets structured in such a way that that facilitates investment in infrastructure and that facilitates growth and that gets us in the right direction. But from a climate justice perspective, it looks like countries have created this problem and now they're not providing the finances to help others meet the challenge that they've created. You know, that's that's the moral hurdle that people are facing.

Paul: [00:59:24] That is. Well, if you want to talk about economic justice, Tom, there's actually a number of different areas we could cover, but I fear that we're coming to the end of our list. Right.

Tom: [00:59:33] Well, those who want to hear the bonus on economic justice, I mean, you're right, it's an interesting area. We should get into it, but not now. So anything else to drop in here before we go to our music?

Paul: [00:59:45] Just lovely to be with you again and great to be back. And hello to those listening. Great to be with you, too.

Tom: [00:59:51] Lovely to be back, as you say. So we have some great music this week. Just last thing from me is that I had the great privilege to go on The Way Out Is In, which is the podcast from Plum Village, hosted by Brother Phap Huu.

Paul: [01:00:03] Which is brilliant.

Tom: [01:00:04] Thank you very much. Well, the podcast is brilliant. I don't think you were talking about my episode.

Paul: [01:00:11] Have you heard my episode? I've heard your episode. I've heard Christiana's this episode. They are both some of the most moving and just wonderful bits of audio I've ever experienced. So unmissable.

Tom: [01:00:21] Well, always, always recommended. And we'll look forward to the Paul Dickinson interview that's out now. If you want to listen to that, you know where to get that from. And we will leave you with some music from Gabriela Eva. The song is called Pulling Faces in the Wind. Thank you for joining us. It's great to be back with you. We look forward to accompanying you over the next few months as we try to get on top of this critical issue at a critical time. We'll see you next week.

Christiana: [01:00:47] Bye.

Clay: [01:05:22] So there you go. We are back at it with another episode. Don't call it a comeback. Been here for years. Rack them up, Piers. Putting suckers in fear. Okay. Sorry. That's too much. But LL Cool J did get it right when he said, don't call it a comeback because, well, we were only gone for about six weeks. I'm Clay Carnell, producer of this podcast, Outrage + Optimism. Thank you so much for joining us and for joining me for the wrap up where I say a few words, introduce you to our show notes, well, thank yous and send you on your merry way. And of course, our first musical artist out the gate is Gabriela Eva, with her track Pulling Faces in the Wind. Gabriela's music needs to make your weekend playlist. I'm a big fan of those funky, low tone, heavy vibe guitars she has going on. And yeah, we can playlist put her music on Saturday Morning Coffee, maybe Saturday Evening Sunset. It's going to take you there. The other song I really liked, I wrote it down Feng Shui. Go spin that one. That's a great one. Gabriella's socials and more of her music are in the show notes. She does great music videos, so YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Apple Music, Spotify, it's all in the show. Notes of this episode. Go check them out. If you have been listening to our podcast for the last year, you're very aware that at the end of every episode, each week we feature a musical artist or on occasion an artist of another medium.

Clay: [01:06:56] And that's because we here at Outrage + Optimism believe that our ability to make and implement the solutions to the climate and every interrelated crisis that we're living through requires us to put everything on the table. And Christiana has shared this before. This is a quote from her that art, music and poetry are some of the most effective forms of protest. They change our minds, they move our hearts, and they spur us into action. And action now is all of our responsibility. So I just wanted to share with you this vision of the end of our podcast. You know, these ending moments of the show every week are an opportunity for us to change our minds, to let our hearts be moved, and there'll be an opportunity to spur us into action. We're going to listen to artists, what they have to say. We're going to listen to their music. And yeah, I just want to invite you to join us. Join me at the end. Every episode we're going to hear all different kinds of music from around the world. We're going to have all different kinds of artists who are having a human experience here and creating about it. And we get the privilege of bearing witness to what they've made and want to share with us. I will be selecting the artists that make the show each week. I couldn't be more excited to be partnering with these outstanding creators to bring you the noise.

Clay: [01:08:22] And I am just so psyched to share Gabriela Eva's music with you this weekend. I can't wait for you to hear every week's artists from here on out. So that's the pitch. Join us every week. We're going to play amazing music, listen to artists. We're going to change our minds. We're going to grow. We're going to take action. Okay, that was my TEDx talk. Thanks. Where are we? Actually, back to LL Cool J for a second. Did you know that there is a statue of him in Queens, New York, featuring a solar powered boombox that plays his music? It's a permanent fixture. And every Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. And this is true. It plays his music noon to 5 p.m.. There you go. The more you know, it's in Flushing Meadows, Corona Park in Queens. Shout out to Queens. And speaking of Queens, thank you to one of the late Queen Elizabeth, the second photographers, Henry Dellal, for taking our call today. Fantastic person. If you like horses, this man has some photographs that you should see. You can go to his website in the show notes. I would like to add that he has a fantastic photo book titled Addressing Climate Change. I figured maybe you guys would be interested in checking that out. Go pick it up. You can buy it. And what does it look like? You can't miss the cover because Christiana is on it. Oh, and give him a follow on Instagram.