317: Inside COP: A New Economy Rising - from promises to progress

Paul: [00:12:41] Hmm. I think I can deliver that when I send you to the office of the Comptroller of Cop 30. But I've got a horrible feeling that that person doesn't exist. Or at least they might have their office, but I don't. I think the levers of power are not necessarily connected to anything. Let's bring in the voice of finance because we have a fantastic guest now. Aniket Shah, who is global head of ESG and sustainable finance at Jefferies, which is like one of the leading investment banks. And he's a real expert in this, and I think it's going to be a fascinating interview. So shall we go to Aniket?

Aniket Shah: [00:13:12] So I'm Aniket Shah. I'm a managing director at Jefferies, and I run the firm's sustainability and energy transition research team. Jefferies is a global investment banking business. We help investors and corporates engage with one another. We help companies raise capital. We help investors invest capital within this company. My job is to lead a team of around eight researchers trying to get to the bottom of sustainability and the transition. We are not trying to make the world a better place. We're not trying to solve climate change. We are trying to understand what is actually happening. And our view at Jefferies, and my personal view is that if you can give good analytical insights about the world as it is and where it may be going in the long run, your clients will stick with you. And so we are spending all day in the data, and I'm really excited to talk to you about it.

Paul: [00:14:14] I'm not sure I entirely believe you when you say you're not trying to make the world a better place. You're the first person to say that. But it's actually it's a super serious kind of thesis that I think you're quite famous for. And if I put it in my own language, it's kind of like if you think big banks and investors are going to go and lose money voluntarily, that is never going to happen. You're going to wait till doomsday. But if the system is set up such that the markets and the so to say real economy can make money, then you can kind of relax and it'll look after itself. Is that about right?

Aniket Shah: [00:14:45] 100%. And, you know, I think it's so important, Paul, that we distinguish between being an analyst and being an advocate. So much of this climate space has seen a blurring of those two lines where analysts, people whose jobs it is to understand the world as it is, got into the business of proselytizing, of advocating for certain outcomes. And I think that was quite dangerous, frankly, because it led to a lot of confusion and it led to bad outcomes. And so I do think that there is a job for analytical work. And then decision makers, whether they're investors or policymakers or whomever, should take that information and make the best decisions that they can. Last year, the world economy deployed $2 trillion into low carbon capital expenditures Editors. In 2015, at the Paris Climate Agreement. That number was $380 billion. In 2009, when I started my career at the Earth Institute at Columbia University, that number was at around $160 billion. So we've gone from $160 billion to $2 trillion. Wow. That is an incredible change in capital flows. And I'm talking about actual capital expenditures. Building things is $2 trillion. Okay. Very exciting. Let me give you another number. According to the International Energy Agency, last year the global economy deployed $2 into low carbon capital expenditure for every $1 in high carbon capital expenditure. That's pretty good. You know, compared to what it was five, ten years ago. And yet, at the same time, we are at near record high emissions and 80% of the world's primary energy today still comes from fossil fuels. One could look at the data and be incredibly excited. Or one could look at the data and say, there's nothing happening and the world's burning and blah, blah, blah. And the hardest thing about this topic is that it's both at the same time. There's incredible progress and there's a lot more to be done. This is the hardest project humanity has ever tried to do, and we should all just appreciate how hard it is and keep going.

Fi: [00:17:12] I agree so much. I think so much of that has come from an incredible swell of momentum since Paris to help lead the real economy, those dollars to a point where that momentum continues. I guess what I want to ask you is, is that happening now? Are we seeing analysts and financial systems just investing in these technologies because it makes sense. Or was a lot of that due to policies like the IRA, which might now be shifting under new political administrations? And will that two for one no longer exist as we project out? So how are you forecasting the future?

Aniket Shah: [00:17:53] The bottom line is that all investing happens when there is policy of some sort driving certain outcomes. That's true for low carbon. That's true for high carbon. We live in a world where there are laws, there are regulations, there are rules. That is the context within which we all make investment decisions. The low carbon transition has accelerated because of policy. It was the emissions trading scheme in Europe. It was the incredible, incredible growth of solar in China, which, by the way, only happened because of Germany's efforts 20 years earlier, and that only happened because of Nixon's efforts in the 70s. And policy was a throughput of the whole solar revolution. There's no world in which policy doesn't impact investing. Globally speaking policy remains highly committed towards the low carbon transition, and within the United States, state and local level policy is still not terrible when it comes to the transition. Us federal policy is becoming a little difficult, that's for sure, but the US is only 13% of CO2 emissions. The US is only 18% of global low carbon spend. We shouldn't get too hung up on US policy change. I think low carbon spend, low carbon CapEx is going to continue to go up. This is largely driven by China, but there are lots of exciting stories right on the tail of China. Like India, like Japan. And I think we're going to see more low carbon spend.

Paul: [00:19:41] I always want to ask everyone this question. I especially want to ask you. Doesn't this mean that the Enlightened investor and the enlightened low carbon company should be trying to support the policy collaboration process and push policies through to increase the financial return? It's almost kind of like policy isn't out there in space made by the gods, right? It's kind of like we're mixed up with that, right?

Aniket Shah: [00:20:02] 100%. There is a real financial incentive for companies to get policy from policy makers that support their outcomes. That's true for low carbon. That's true for high carbon. You can like it. You can not like it. But that's how the world works. Now, which policy we want when it comes to low carbon transition is not very clear. Do you subsidize? If so, which sectors do you subsidize? When do you eliminate the subsidies? Should you have a carbon border adjustment mechanism? Do you phase out fossil fuels? If so, who pays? These are real difficult policy questions, and if you're questioning it, it doesn't make you a climate denier. It doesn't make you a bad person. These are all interesting and important questions.

Fi: [00:20:50] Not only that, but very pragmatic.

Aniket Shah: [00:20:52] 100%.

Fi: [00:20:53] I want to ask what would be the biggest financial system levers to watch for at Cop 30 in Brazil?

Aniket Shah: [00:21:01] Well, I hate to say it, but Cop 30 is not the gathering for financial policy. And I think part of our problem, frankly, is that we try to mix all these things and and we try to make of something what it isn't. Cop is great for what it is, which is it does international climate policy. It tries to get negotiations. It tries to get to outcome documents and NDCs and updating the NDCs. So that's point one is like don't expect too much from a financial perspective other than promises which will not necessarily be legally binding. The one thing that I am most looking forward to at Cop 30 is a global realization around China's leadership in low carbon. China has come out of the last year of international trade wars and geopolitical turmoil as undisputedly the world's technological leader, certainly the leader in the low carbon space. And at a time when the US is pulling back from their very tepid engagements in Paris and cop to begin with, I'm seeing what China is going to do to step in to fill that void. Here's a country that's the largest trading partner to 150 countries in the world. And so that's what I say to my Western colleagues and friends in this space is spend more time on China. You'll become a better investor and a better analyst if you understand what's happening in China and low carbon.

Paul: [00:22:36] What I really love that interview. I think he's unbelievably clear, although I do kind of disagree with him about this finance director thing, because, you know, we do need to get the governments of the world together. We do need the finance ministries to be working with each other. And so seeing as the cop is there and seeing it as this big thing, doesn't it make sense to get finance ministers there where they can kind of, you know, be with heads of state and big businesses and try and work this kind of stuff through.

Fi: [00:23:02] Yeah. I mean, totally agree. What a fascinating conversation. I wish we had more time because there were so many pieces there that I think both you and I were kind of keen to dive into this being a primary one for me. I found myself at first being like, what? That is like blasphemy. Of course, we need more financial policymakers, real economy actors at Cop. And I absolutely don't want to say that we don't. But what I do think the climate community needs to recognize is that inherently, climate and climate solutions, the solutions to climate change, will be won by meeting industry and other actors where they convene. You know, Christiana made this point in the episode that I referenced a lot with Ellen MacArthur about the plastics treaty. There are many, many steps along the way where you can forecast out what signals you want to send in two weeks without requiring that representatives are there in the flesh. It requires savviness and forethought and strategy. And I think just getting more actors in the cop venue without clarity around what they're trying to genuinely drive towards, isn't going to solve anything. So in that regard, I think there's a lot of validity to that point.

Paul: [00:24:24] I mean, they might come up with a good idea.

Fi: [00:24:26] I mean, of course.

Paul: [00:24:29] Madam Finance Director, you know, I was wondering if our countries are next to each other. I think if we put on a carbon tax, would you put on a carbon tax? And we could both put a carbon tax on, and then we could get rid of this frightfully awful greenhouse gas emissions. What do you think?

Fi: [00:24:41] I absolutely agree, Mr. Finance Minister, but I also think that's why you have these heads of state moment where you can get the signals agreed upon. And it's interesting that these used to come either in the middle of cops or sometimes towards the end of cop, they're increasingly has been a trend to heads of state coming at the beginning of Cop. That's right. And I recognize that it sets out to their delegates a message of ambition that they want to be met, but it also takes away some of the leverage that you get from having your head of state come in in a tough moment and saying the thing that then would direct the finance minister whether or not they're there to implement more robust whole of government approaches. And again, we're now talking only about governments, but I think the financial sector needs to show up at Cop or be helping really amplify what's coming out of a cop. I mean, we're in such a connected world now that I see it both ways, but I do think there are real opportunities to integrate voices from the financial sector that doesn't require the cop trying to solve them all. And climate has such an intersectional issue should be showing up at so many industry events or financial sector exclusive events. And I think that is something that will be necessary to really moving at the scale that's required.

Paul: [00:25:59] It's the same as the idea of the kind of chief sustainability officer. It's like, well, why does she or he have all of sustainability when actually you want it kind of woven through the fabric of the whole company, from marketing, from finance and operations and all the rest of it. So we're going to go to the super brain of global optimism. Sue Read, who's such an expert, works with all the biggest investors. Let's see what she has to say about finance in the Cop.

Sue Reid: [00:26:20] So this question comes up all the time and it's a good question to ask. And certainly not everyone needs to show up all the time. There simply isn't room for it. So strategic interventions make sense. And what's most important is for financial institutions to be off rolling up their sleeves and doing the hard work of aligning their portfolios and all of their engagement and activities with net zero. And this fundamental transition that is needed and transformation that is needed. At the same time, it's important to take note of the fact that at the very heart of the Paris Agreement is a crucial provision for the wonks in the mix known as article two onesie, that requires all financial flows, both public and private finance, to align with the objectives of the Paris Agreement. And that makes extraordinary sense. We cannot achieve the objectives of the Paris Agreement, get to net zero with a thriving and resilient new economy while continuing to invest in business as usual and high carbon and all of the things that are exacerbating the climate crisis. So it's really crucial. It's also really important to understand that it's difficult, if not impossible, to engage in sound negotiations and decision making about finance without experts in the room. We find that when finance sector voices are not represented, then all sorts of assumptions are made and the solutions don't actually work. So to have pragmatic solutions to break through some of the financing challenges that still persist, it is really important to have some representation at the climate talks.

Sue Reid: [00:28:03] And Cop 30 in particular. We expect finance to be a central thread, whether it's the Tropical Forests Forever facility, the innovative finance mechanism that is being structured to draw in $100 billion of investment from mainstream institutional Investors who can buy Triple-A, very safe bonds for resources that then will flow. The proceeds will flow to incentive payments for tropical forest countries to sustain their forests to the Baku de Belém roadmap to $1.3 trillion a year to unleash the resources needed by developing countries for climate solutions. Recognizing there is no net zero, there is no limiting temperature rise to 1.5 C without the finance flows going to the countries on the front lines that are least situated to finance climate solutions on their own, we need a viable, pragmatic, ambitious, inclusive roadmap that is expected to be delivered at Cop 30 and the ongoing push for countries to adopt national policies, their NDCs and so on that take up the global stocktake objectives of tripling renewables, doubling efficiency, accelerating phase out of fossil fuels, halting and reversing deforestation to transition the real economy for finance flows to shift at scale. Those are all crucial pieces that we expect to come forward at Cop 30, where financial institution voices can help get to the outcomes that we need.

Paul: [00:29:38] I love Sue's energy and clarity of thought. What do you make of that fee?

Fi: [00:29:41] Absolutely. Thank you so much, Sue. I appreciated that so much, and I know we'll be talking a lot about this finance focus at Cop, particularly the triple F, the Tropical Forest Forever facility, which, as Sue says, aims to mobilise $100 billion via triple A rated bonds. We will dive much more into that. But I think one of the things that this made clear to me is actually a point that Aniket made himself, is that we need less of the macro, or maybe not less of the macro, but we need more of the micro economists, micro finance, the people who really understand deal making to come in and be a part of these negotiations for these big, audacious ideas that will generate the solutions that we need. So in that regard, Sue, I think, gave us a really clear illustration of why we do need more finance representation at cops so that these things can be implemented much more clearly and much more quickly. You know, I think something else that Sue mentioned is that we need major finance flows in the global South. And I know that Anika talked about China and watching China as a big outcome. Paul, you think about this a lot. Any any reflections on that point?

Paul: [00:30:55] I'm super excited by the rise of Chinese manufacturing capability to deliver very, very low cost solar batteries, electric vehicles. I mean, I've got to tell you, you know, in geopolitical terms, I'm no great fan of one party political systems, but, you know, the US, which was, you know, the leading democracy has gone into this kind of climate change denial spiral. And whilst we're all sorting out, you know, the right governance systems for our nations, and, you know, we're all involved in this kind of political project, which I guess is forever, we've got to decarbonise. And China is an absolute global leader in delivering that. I think they've undertaken a phenomenally effective industrial strategy, and it's going to be good for the people of China, and it's going to be good for the people of the world. That's what trade is all about.

Fi: [00:31:43] Yeah. I mean, times of great technological change often come with a shifting of geopolitical centering, like who sits at the center?

Paul: [00:31:52] Center of gravity.

Fi: [00:31:53] Center of gravity. Thank you. Couldn't quite get there. So just that is an interesting phenomenon that maybe would be worth picking up with. Tom and I have talked about this a bit, but it would be really cool to have an episode, perhaps just just on that. You could talk for days about that topic. But one of the things I think about shifting flows of finance and shifting centers of gravity for what that engine is, is we're about to speak with someone who has focused on the burgeoning new technologies and centers of innovation that exist within Latin America and the Caribbean, and to illustrate exactly this point, that things are already happening and we need to shift financial flows to incubate those solutions, which will deliver much better solutions for people and planet.

Paul: [00:32:37] So let's now go to an interview with Daniel Gajardo. He's a Chilean entrepreneur working on solutions to the environmental crisis. And while studying at Stanford, he co-founded Reciprocal, which is a climate venture studio in Latin America. And I think what I really want to talk to him about is how climate entrepreneurship shows up differently, I guess, in Latin America. So let's go to Daniel now. Daniel, thank you so much for joining us here on Outrage and Optimism. First of all, can you talk about yourself and your organization and then we'll get stuck straight into what's happening?

Daniel Gajardo: [00:33:10] I am Daniel Gajardo, the co-founder of reciprocal. We are a climate venture platform from Latin America. We're very excited about what entrepreneurs from the region are doing in terms of creating startups to solve some of our climate challenges, and happy to be here to tell you more about that.

Fi: [00:33:28] We have talked a lot on the podcast, of course, about Brazil being the home of Cop 30, but you are right in the heart of a lot of the entrepreneurial ventures that are taking place in the region, really by founders who are also from the region.

Daniel Gajardo: [00:33:40] Yeah, for sure. It's a bit of like a personal story for me because I am a climate entrepreneur myself. I've always been in this field for the last decade or so, but I've been doing a last chapter of my life in Stanford, in San Francisco, which are like the hearts of innovation. And I was surprised by how little people here were talking about emerging markets in general as an opportunity for investment or for innovation. So reciprocal was created as a way of solving that. And what we found was an incredible amount of amounts of activity. We just launched a new report, actually in Your Climate Weekly, where we showed how the region is not only about potential in terms of startups, but it's our movement. Things are already happening. Entrepreneurs are chugging along, creating great things.

Paul: [00:34:26] So let's just dig into that. Specifically, I was kind of thinking how much I was looking forward to this conversation because for the last 25 years, people have sort of said, well, the grid can be replaced by offshore wind and solar. And I've been talking about that one thing for 25 years, and I'm getting a little bored of it. Like what's happening in the kind of front line somewhere that isn't where I live.

Daniel Gajardo: [00:34:49] Yeah, well, I think you're hitting the nail on the head here. The way I see it is that we need to change how we do everything in our economy from our food systems, our buildings, our cities. And innovators out there are creating new solutions to do that all over the world. And what we see in Latam is that people are so close to the problems. We are so much being disproportionately affected by climate change. I call climate a theme. And we did that theme. We have many sub sectors from agriculture, oceans, carbon markets, sustainable manufacturing and across all of those themes you're seeing new ideas coming along from the region. So it's a very exciting time.

Fi: [00:35:29] It totally is. One of the things that is very much talked about is this desire. As we build the new economy, how do we avoid extractive patterns from the old economy, and how are you seeing examples of that in the work and partners that you collaborate with?

Daniel Gajardo: [00:35:44] One of the findings in this report that we just launched was that most of the investment that's coming into Latin American climate startups is coming from outside of the region. Around 55, 60%.

Fi: [00:35:56] Outside of the region, just anywhere else in the world or mostly like Europe, North America.

Daniel Gajardo: [00:36:00] Europe and North America mostly. So the global North investing into Latam. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing. We should grow that because the numbers are already super low, so we should have more of that. But what happens is that when a startup grows and it's successful, the value that that company creates is also transferred to these investors that are outside of the region. Right. So in a way, if we don't find a way of convincing people from Adam to believe in the region itself, we're going to repeat that pattern that you just mentioned. So I spent a lot of my time talking with people that could invest in climate solutions from Latin America, trying to convince them that it's a good idea to invest in home.

Paul: [00:36:39] So let me ask 1 or 2 examples either of your own business, or 1 or 2 others that inspire you, or get a little fire going in you.

Daniel Gajardo: [00:36:45] One that really shows how Latam is such a special place to create these solutions is called Puna Bio. They're leveraging extremophiles that live in the Argentinian Puna, and these are micro organisms that are able to survive in very, very harsh conditions. They are able to extract the genes that make them successful at those environments, and then leverage those genes to enhance crops.

Fi: [00:37:09] Oh, wow.

Daniel Gajardo: [00:37:10] So they're taking something that you can only find in an ecosystem that's present in Latam, like the Puna. And they're applying it to something that's one of our major economic drivers like agriculture. So I think that's an example of why somebody from Latam can leverage its local conditions and then do something that's better for the whole world, not only for the region.

Fi: [00:37:28] I've heard from folks working in a similar field as you that it's been much harder to raise capital for these types of environmental sustainability projects, innovation startups. Are you finding that to be true?

Daniel Gajardo: [00:37:42] We're definitely seeing a shift, but it's not necessarily a bad one. And this might be a little bit of a hot take.

Fi: [00:37:48] We love hot takes.

Daniel Gajardo: [00:37:49] Oh yeah. Okay. So I think what happened 2020, 2022, it was that this market was way too hot. Like everybody wanted to go in it because it was sexy. We also had big incentives behind the theme of climate solutions. And now we see that the market has recalibrated in a way. It's not gone. It's still very much going despite Covid, despite economic recessions, despite political shifts. But this recalibration increases the due diligence that an entrepreneur has to go through to get investment. That raises the bar. You need to make sure your business is a good business. You need to make sure your impact is very well measured. I don't think necessarily that's a bad thing.

Paul: [00:38:29] You know, entrepreneurs are kind of shaping the next iteration of society, of the culture. How would you say the business context is either easier or harder for people with climate change or environmental businesses in Latin America?

Daniel Gajardo: [00:38:42] Well, I think we need more trust into Latin American entrepreneurs. What we found in this report, and that's why I'm so excited, is that investing in Latin American entrepreneurs, it's not only about equity and fairness, it's also a really good investment idea. Talent there is excellent and cheaper markets are thriving and growing. You can get a bigger bang for your buck if you want to put it that way. And also, we're so close to the problem again that the ideas are pretty darn good.

Fi: [00:39:08] Yeah, they're really rooted in local context. I mean, so many parallels with what is coming out of Africa climate summit, you know, innovation by local communities who live within that space is often going to serve better. And let's trust and invest those dollars. What do you believe would be the best outcome? What could Cop 30 best deliver for you and those that you work with?

Daniel Gajardo: [00:39:29] So I have a question for you to answer that first. How much of global climate tech funding do you think goes into Latin American startups?

Fi: [00:39:38] I don't know. Wait, like 11%.

Daniel Gajardo: [00:39:40] Less than 1% of global climate tech funding goes into Latin. The latest that we found with the data we have available is 0.35%. So for me, an outcome for Cop 30 is to show strong commitment from investors, especially from investors that are from Latin America, that we're going to change that number and we're going to make it grow.

Paul: [00:40:02] And I'm just looking at those Statistics Latam's over 8% of global population 0.35. It's kind of 24 times out of whack. There's something really, really wrong there.

Daniel Gajardo: [00:40:12] Yeah. And Paul, when you look at natural ecosystem, we have biggest share of global biodiversity 40% of forest. And also our economies are bigger than 0.35% right. Population size. So yeah we need to change that.

Paul: [00:40:26] How would you advise the negotiators in Belgium from all the different governments? Actually also I guess the corporations, the investors, the civil society, the people going there, how would you advise people to be at the Cop to deliver the outcome we need?

Daniel Gajardo: [00:40:40] So I think it's a tough year, but we need to remain, as your podcast says, like both outraged and optimistic. We need to dot the I's and cross the T's, and you need to show solutions that maybe are happening outside of the negotiation room, of how many people are still doing amazing things for the climate. And what I love about this report in particular, is that Latam gets a lot of good energy, good vibes. But what we've done is put data behind that. And I think the opportunity in Cop is doing exactly the same. So it's not only a stunt that we're all joining in the Amazon. There's data behind that. There's quantifiable evidence of why this is an important moment, not only for the region and for the rest of the world, too. So we focus on the numbers, and we show the stories of people that are still doing great things, no matter what the current situation is. I think we're going to see good things coming out of these negotiations.

Fi: [00:41:34] What an amazing conversation and what a brilliant individual doing so many cool things with brilliant partners. Paul, what did you think?

Paul: [00:41:42] He's such a well, first of all, I mean, he gets top marks for saying like, I love the show and everything like that. I'm kind of like, oh, you know, we the radio waves travel all the way around the world. Or perhaps it's the internet, actually. But in all seriousness, I can just see a little bit of fire in his eyes that, you know, there's 8% of the population on that great continent. There's 40% of the world's forests and less than 1%. I was talking about like 0.35% of climate investment. I think that's an enormous opportunity when you consider the the scale and the genius. And, you know, actually, zillions of years ago, I made myself cry in my hotel room. Uh, maybe it was. I'd had a drink for the minibar, but I did genuinely. Tears came to my eyes as I imagined a film where the world responds to climate change, and it was the best of China and the best of the US, and the best of Japan, and the best of Nigeria and the best of Australia and the best of Brazil, you know. And we are going to come together. And he's absolutely right. There are completely brilliant people there doing completely brilliant things. And what is it about some ludicrous, oh, I'm loving your metaphor. What is it Trump does piercing the veil of distraction? When are we going to be able to pierce the veil of distraction and remember, like, just forget about the silly old North America's 18% of global trade. Who cares? Let's let's talk about the millions of flowers blooming all across the world.

Fi: [00:43:06] So well said. And I think one of the things I've been reflecting upon from all of the voices we've heard from in this episode and the conversations we've had, is just the reality that it's not just climate finance that needs to flow to support these solutions, it's that other types of finance will come to support these solutions because they're not just climate quote unquote climate smart. They are actually security investments. They are people first investments. They are agriculture and food security investments. So I think we'll start to see their investments in the beauty of nature and homes, in education and livelihoods. And this is why climate touches everything. And we didn't have a chance to get into this. But I'm just curious about how much finance investment that's not just climate coded is going into Latin America, because we need more of that too. And I am really excited to see those voices be pulled out at this cop, which is again, one of implementation. And and those innovators, those venture capital funds that are investing in these startups. That is implementation happening on the ground already.

Paul: [00:44:17] So let's summarize for me personally summarize what is this action agenda. And there are some communications angels that sometimes kind of whisper to me. And one of them was saying, okay, we're going to be solving these problems, which I guess is what we were talking about with entrepreneurs and others coming through with new business models. We're going to be securing those, the actions that we need from governments and others and business to sort of make this happen. And then, above all, with those foundations, we are going to scale the proven solutions we have, get the job done, and then we can turn our thoughts to the eternal human question how will we live with the machine species we we created just recently? Out of my left, out of the left of my eye, I saw Adam and Eve create God. A bit of a frightening proposition, but. But at least we'll be on a climate stable world to work on that one.

Fi: [00:45:05] Uh. You're jumping more ahead than my brain can process in this moment. But I think, you know, I had the immense privilege of working alongside Sir Andrew Steer for many, many years. And one of the things that there are two things that he used to say all the time, and one is that I think the action agenda is where all the pieces of the puzzle come together to form a clearer picture. And there are so many different pieces of the puzzle, different actors, you know, governments, private sector, civil society, indigenous peoples, the finance sector, also doing different projects and different regions, the bio economy. On and on and on and on. And all of those puzzle pieces need to be fit together so that you can see it all come together. And that to me is the action agenda. And another Andrew ism is making the whole greater than the sum of the parts. And I think that is the action agenda. All the noise, all the energy is actually all of this adding up to lead to something that is beyond what we can even really articulate. And that is the new economy rising. That is a new era dawning of what is being made possible. And the cop just happens to be this unique two week period during a year where all of that comes together physically in in one convenient. Typically they're like tents, but in one place that just all comes together.

Paul: [00:46:30] Hmm. Okay, so I'm going to turn into the world's worst rapper, a kind of synergy between these things giving us the energy to achieve security. All right. Now, fi, thank you for today. I've really enjoyed our conversation. Next week we are going to be covering the New World Order. I can't wait. Looking forward to it.

Fi: [00:46:49] Thank you.

Paul: [00:46:50] See you next week.

Paul: [00:46:51] Bye bye.