324: Inside COP: Ed Miliband on Multilateralism, Leadership and the UK’s Climate Dilemma
We sit down with Ed Miliband for a candid conversation about credible climate leadership, the defence of multilateralism, and why the right is wrong to claim voters don’t care about the climate.
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About this episode
Why hasn’t the UK contributed to Brazil’s flagship Tropical Forests Forever Facility it helped design? With COP30 about to open in Belém, the UK’s absence from this major forest finance deal is raising eyebrows.
Meanwhile, Prince William, UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer and Energy and Climate Change Minister Ed Miliband have been in Brazil this week, demonstrating the country’s continued commitment to the COP process.
Christiana Figueres and Tom Rivett-Carnac sit down with Ed Miliband for a wide-ranging and candid conversation about credible climate leadership, the defence of multilateralism, and why the right is wrong to claim voters don’t care about the climate.
Recorded just after the Leaders’ Summit, 36 hours before COP30 begins, this episode dives into the apparent contradictions in the UK’s actions this week, and asks: how can climate ambition survive amidst political polarisation and harsh economic realities?
Learn more:
💡 Read about the Tropical Forests Forever Facility
⚡See the latest from the UK’s Department for Energy Security & Net Zero
🌍 Check out the official COP30 website for background and announcements
🎤 What do you want to hear on Inside COP? Ask us on SpeakPipe
Follow us on social media for behind the scenes moments and to watch our videos:
Instagram @outrageoptimism
LinkedIn @outrageoptimism
And we want to hear from you! What do you want to hear more of in Inside COP? Get in touch with us. Get in touch with us via this form.
Producer: Ben Weaver-Hincks
Video Producer: Caitlin Hanrahan
Exec Producer: Ellie Clifford
With thanks to Groundswell and Global Optimism.
This is a Persephonica production for Global Optimism and is part of the Acast Creator Network.
Full Transcript
Transcript generated by AI. While we aim for accuracy, errors may still occur. Please refer to the episode’s audio for the definitive version
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:00:00] So hi listeners, we weren't intending to put an episode out today, but we actually just spoke to Ed Miliband and he was extremely candid about domestic situation in the UK, what is needed on the international stage, as well as some other developing stories. So we decided actually we would put it out today. The poor team, they're going to put an extra episode out, so we'll be back. Surprise! We promised you a joint episode of Andre de Lago and Ed Miliband on Monday, but actually you're going to get Ed Miliband today and Andre de Lago with our analysis of the opening of the Kop tomorrow.Christiana Figueres: [00:00:28] Because his conversation is actually worth a standalone.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:00:31] There you go. All right. Here we go. Hello and welcome to Inside Kop from Outrage and Optimism. We are here in Belgium for a special conversation with Ed Miliband. Thanks for being here. Sir. Christiana, you and I have gone across town. We're now in the southern part of Belgium. We're sitting at what will be Gall's House when the Kop begins, which is a great venue. We'll be here quite a bit throughout the week.
Christiana Figueres: [00:00:54] When the construction site here is finished. We seem to go from constructions to constructions.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:01:00] But we're not in charge, so we don't have to worry about someone else having firms for that. And in a minute, Ed Miliband, the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change of the United Kingdom, will be here for a special conversation ahead of the cop, what he's seeing. We're going to talk to him about the domestic issues, some of the things around the triple F, as well as his hopes for the politics at Cop. Anything you want to say? You've been friends with Ed for a long time.
Christiana Figueres: [00:01:20] I've been friends with Ed for a long time, but it does strike me that I've been spending a lot of UK related time lately, because I spent a lot of time last week with the Earthshot Prize, led by Prince William. Then that evening with the British Prime Minister and now with Ed. So it's getting a little bit contagious from you, Tom.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:01:41] Sorry about that. We will pivot back to Costa Rica being the center of the known universe soon. Absolutely. But meanwhile, we'll struggle on with some more UK related content. And I believe that he's here. So let's just go straight into the conversation because.
Christiana Figueres: [00:01:55] He has he has a very short.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:01:57] He's got a tight schedule.
Christiana Figueres: [00:01:58] Tight schedule. Very nice of him to come all the way here. So without any further ado, here's Ed Miliband.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:02:05] All right.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:02:09] Am I starting?
Christiana Figueres: [00:02:10] What kind of a question is that? You are the UK citizen.
Ed Miliband: [00:02:13] Now we're rolling. Now, this is clearly just trying to work this out. Exactly. That's good. Leave that in. You have to take the lead here. Definitely leave that in, everybody.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:02:24] This is exposing the unprofessional nature of outrage and optimism. Ed Miliband, welcome to the podcast. I can't quite believe we had to come to Belgium to have a sit down interview with you. But whatever is necessary.
Ed Miliband: [00:02:35] Yeah. It's great. And and can.
Christiana Figueres: [00:02:37] We say we missed your podcast?
Ed Miliband: [00:02:38] I missed my podcast too. Um, but, you know, thank you for inviting me into your bedroom.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:02:43] At any time. Absolutely.
Ed Miliband: [00:02:44] Yeah. I'm not sure the viewers will be able to see this, but we're sort of in.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:02:47] The cameras are strategically.
Ed Miliband: [00:02:48] Positioned.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:02:49] So they can't actually.
Ed Miliband: [00:02:50] Yeah, exactly.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:02:51] Great to be here. Thank you for being here.
Ed Miliband: [00:02:53] As you know.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:02:53] Oh you're you're very you're very getting a lot of points already. Yeah. So the Prime Minister just left and we're going to get into a few different elements of the next couple of weeks, and we want to start on the triple F, because obviously that's been a big part of the start of Cop the Tropical Forest Forever facility. And actually, I just did an interview on Times Radio where we talked about this, and there was a caller that dialed in and what they said was, I'm a taxpayer in the UK, and I don't want any of my money to go to saving the rainforest, because there's no rainforest in the UK. Is that sort of perspective the reason why it was so difficult for the UK to put money in?
Ed Miliband: [00:03:29] No. Let me, let me sort of give a the wider context to this. The TF is a really, really important idea because it's about creating an investment fund essentially to help counter deforestation and using the revenues from that, from that fund. And I think it's it's an incredibly innovative idea. We've worked on it with Brazil for two years. We've put.
Christiana Figueres: [00:03:54] Probably the first country to actually work with Brazil hand in.
Ed Miliband: [00:03:57] Hand.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:03:58] Definitely system design and.
Ed Miliband: [00:04:00] We're working on the design of it. Put some small amounts of money into some of the administration of working out how you make it happen. We've got a big fiscal event coming up in the next three, three weeks, and that's obviously a very, very difficult context. That's why we weren't able to announce an investment now, but we certainly haven't ruled it out for the future. Okay. And, uh, you know, I think there is an openness to that. So I think it's that it's a consequence of the timing. The answer to that caller is, look, if we don't stop deforestation, the problem will come to us, right? Because this is absolutely essential if we're going to stop global warming getting to runaway levels. And, uh, I think this is part of the broader argument about why we're here, which is it's in our national interest. We're 1% of global emissions. Now, we could just say, well, we're not going to turn up. We're not going to engage. But that will be a total betrayal of future generations because we'd be basically just shutting up shop and saying, there's nothing we can do, and it would be a betrayal of today's generations. Because actually, if we drive the clean energy transition forward, there's jobs, there's opportunities, there's energy security for Britain. So we feel incredibly confident about our arguments on this. And also, it was great to have both the Prime Minister, obviously, and the Prince of Wales as a dynamic duo, right to represent the UK.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:05:21] So let's get we'll get a bit more into the specifics of the triple F, but what you pointed out there and what maybe that caller represents, is a cultural gap between what is in the interest of that person and every other person on the planet, and where the culture of action on climate change currently is. Right. I mean, you're evidently in post, you're pushing forward, you're trying to drive down.
Ed Miliband: [00:05:39] Birmingham in post.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:05:40] You're in post. Well, okay, hold the front page exclusive outrageous post. You're evidently in post trying to drive down bills, trying to deal with the climate crisis. And it looks like it's kind of heavy sledding in some ways, as the Canadians would say, because the culture isn't with us, because they're not. We're not actually seeing people really understand that this is in their interests.
Ed Miliband: [00:06:01] You know, I had a text this morning from my favorite pollster, Luke Tryl, from more in common with yet another piece of Luke Tryl polling evidence showing that the Westminster view, which is there's this massive revolt among the British people on climate and net zero, is not correct. It's just not correct. And I think what's happening here, and I think it's happening domestically and globally, is that the opponents of this agenda are trying to manufacture or bring into being a sort of are there is a consensus of a backlash. And I actually think that they're way exaggerating. What is the truth? Now, of course, a time of a cost of living crisis. We have to show how this agenda can help cut people's bills, make us more energy secure to create good jobs. But we feel really confident about doing that, and we feel really confident about winning this argument. I think that in the British context for for British listeners reform and the Tories, who are both now for ripping up the Climate Change Act. Blah blah blah. I think they've made a terrible obviously I don't like their policy, but I think it's a political mistake too, because I actually think we'll win this argument.
Ed Miliband: [00:07:08] You know, if the question is, do you want the 400,000 extra clean energy jobs that are going to be created by 2030 under this government's plans? Well, if you want them, you're not going to get them. With reform the Tories tearing up the Climate Change Act, because that is basically saying we don't want these jobs. That's that's their position. Or do you want to leave us exposed to fossil fuels and all of the geopolitical instability that we have? Well, that's what they would do. We'd have clean, home grown energy that we control. And then, by the way, the other thing that Luke always says to me is don't underestimate also the sense of people do care about what we leave to our children and grandchildren. Of course they do. They care about it in middle class constituencies, working class constituencies across the United Kingdom. So, you know, it's a fight. And the right has decided that there's a cultural dividend in getting off the bus, but I think they're wrong. And in any case, we're going to fight them.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:08:01] So that's great to hear. And just just help us understand what's the calculation you think they've made. Because we hear the same polling as you. Right. 90% of people want more ambitious action globally. Globally. Globally. But it's true in the UK as well. The majority of people we see that. And yet there has been clearly a political calculation made on the right of center that the bipartisan consensus we've had so long on climate change in the UK is over, and they will do their best now to try and win political points.
Ed Miliband: [00:08:26] I find it difficult to get in their heads, but I think it's a sort of it's part of the culture war in the US, they think. And so, you know, this is part of a global right wing movement. And they're partly, you know, importing it lock stock and barrel. And you know, what's interesting about this is that there are lots of conservatives in the UK who are pretty appalled by it, and they're appalled by it. In the words of Gavin Barwell, who was Theresa may's chief of staff. This is really bad policy and it's really bad politics as well. I mean, look, it's sort of at the very least, I think what they're saying to young people is this issue, which you are going to have to live with for decades to come. We're giving up on it. Well, that seems like pretty shit position, if I can put it that way. Uh, to have, uh, but that's their message. And, uh, also, the other thing is it's a very shriveled view of Britain. We can't do anything. We're only 1% of global emissions. Sure, we are only 1% of global emissions. That's why we've got to work with other countries. And so, uh, you know, let's have the fight. Yeah, I sort of relish the fight. Yeah. I mean, look, it'd be better for all kinds of reasons if the consensus in the UK had had stayed. But let's. No social change, no big economic change, no progressive change ever happened without a fight. The idea this was going to this was all going to happen. Happy clappy, Kumbaya, sit around the campfire. You know, it was always going to be a fight. Partly because there are big corporate interests on this as well.
Christiana Figueres: [00:09:57] So I totally agree with you. And let me push on this because how do I let's just pretend for a moment that I'm a UK citizen, which I am not, but let's pretend that I am. I would like to understand how you can argue to me that common good is more important than my quality of life. I would like to understand how you can argue to me that something that is going to happen in the future is something that I should fight for, or should pay for. Now I would like to understand if it is true what you're arguing, then why am I paying such high prices for electricity? I would like to understand. Yes, maybe there are clean jobs. What if that's not where I'm going to find my job? What? There is a gap here. There's a gap in timing. There's a gap in geography. There's a gap in the benefits being felt. And I think, honestly, that that is our challenge. How do we make it here and now issue how do we make it an issue for every single person that needs to feel that their life right now? Let's put children to the side, okay. If we can. How do we actually argue in a convincing way, that the here and now lived experience of every citizen is benefiting.
Ed Miliband: [00:11:21] 100% about better lives today? I've been saying for 20 years it's about convincing. It's not just about preventing disaster tomorrow. It's about better lives today. I'll convince you. So first of all, why are electricity prices energy bills so high in the UK? Because we are so exposed to fossil fuels. The wholesale price of gas in the UK is still 75% higher than when Russia invaded Ukraine, right? That's keeping energy bills £200 higher. Now. It's high at the moment. It could go higher. But but we are. Absolutely in the fossil fuel casino. We have no control over these prices. Right? And whether it's from the North Sea or imported gas, we have no control. And that's why. And people are still suffering the overhang of the cost of living crisis from when Russia invaded Ukraine and their bills went absolutely through the roof. So first point on bills, the way to get bills down, the way to cut the wholesale costs of electricity is with homegrown clean power weed control. Does it take time? Of course it does. Is it the right thing to do? Absolutely. And we're determined to get those benefits to people as quickly as possible. Secondly, on jobs, what is the fastest growing sector in our country? It's clean energy. This is what Nick Stern's new book indeed argues. This is the growth opportunity of the 21st century, and our plans mean 400,000 well-paying jobs by 2030 extra, well-paying jobs. It's not a target or an aspiration. It's what our plans require.
Christiana Figueres: [00:12:49] And in the next five years.
Ed Miliband: [00:12:50] Yeah, and believe it from doubling the number of clean energy jobs and believe it from my constituency. People in my constituency voted for Brexit nine years ago. What was the single biggest demand? It was where are the good jobs? Where are those good jobs that we used to have? Coal mining jobs were really hard, but where are those jobs that pay well? Well, these are the jobs. So this is the offer. And the third thing I'd say to you is this, which is working class people in my constituency care about today and they care about tomorrow. And I think Farage and his cronies have an incredibly patronising view of my constituents. They say, let's reopen the coal mines. I'm an Ex-mining constituency. Nobody ever says to me, let's reopen the coal mines. They say to me. Load More
Christiana Figueres: [00:13:35] Look at my black lungs.
Ed Miliband: [00:13:36] They say to me, where are the good jobs that we used to have? I'm not not going backwards to the Commons. And do they say to me, we really care about what we leave to to our future generations? Of course they do. Is the cost of living crisis top of mind? Yes, but we can do both.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:13:53] But do you think that we. So we obviously agree with you. But do do you think that narrative is widely understood and believed in the UK?
Ed Miliband: [00:14:00] You've always got to keep reinforcing the narrative. You've always got to keep having the argument. And there is a right wing ecosystem that wants to propagate an alternative narrative. But, you know, just to go back to this polling point, people still support zero, right? Do you know, if you ask the British population and this may surprise you and your listeners, if they ask, do you think the government is doing enough or not enough on climate change by significant majorities? Enough. Not enough. They say not enough. They say, uh, take the voters that have gone from Labour to reform, because some voters have gone from Labour to reform since the 2024 election by a greater margin than the population as a whole. They think we're not doing enough on the climate crisis. That's people who've gone to reform, right? You know, and in a sense, I just want to go back to this point because globally and nationally, I think the the opponents of action are going through three different phases. There was denial, delay and now there is despair. They want to basically say, well, nobody really believes this anymore. Nobody really wants to do this anymore. Nobody around the world is doing it. Why should we do it? Nobody in the UK wants to do it. It's just not correct and we have to push back against that.
Speaker6: [00:15:17] So one, one way of understanding.
Christiana Figueres: [00:15:18] That, sorry, Tom, could be from the stubborn optimist sitting next to you that we're so close to succeeding. Yeah, that those who are really nervous about their business continuity are just desperately to pick it up, right? Desperately trying to convince everyone else that this is a non-starter. So is it a sign of us not having done enough or not having done the right thing? Or is it a sign that we're getting pretty close to the positive tipping point?
Ed Miliband: [00:15:50] Look, it might Well, I think it's a I think you make a good point. I think it's, it's, it's partly probably a sign that of success and it's partly a sign look in the UK context of a sort of, you know, desperate desire on the part of the Conservative Party for sort of relevance, frankly. I mean, I think with reform, it's part of a just a sort of wholesale import of a us, a bunch of us stuff. Um, and with the Tories, it's like, well, how do we show ourselves to be, uh, sort of relevant, but but, you know, the British people are smart on this by, I think 2 to 1, they say that investing in renewables is is going to give us lower bills compared to investing in fossil fuels. And we're really committed to delivering.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:16:32] But I mean, given that the public are where they say you are, that the public don't want us to abdicate our responsibility, they want us to do what we need to do. Do you think that the decision could have gone differently if we'd sold it differently to the population? Because actually the population don't want tropical forests to be cut down, right? Wouldn't they have come with us by saying we're going to put money in even ahead.
Ed Miliband: [00:16:53] Of not going to second guess decisions made on behalf of the government? Uh, um, but, uh, but but look, I think, I think overall, what I'd say about this cop is not every world leader was here. The Prime Minister took a decision, as he said to me, there can't be some cops. You go to some cops, you don't. You know, he went in opposition. He thought it really mattered. That was why he was here. Uh, you know, amidst all the other things that he has to do, I think the Prince of Wales to sort of really his presence, you know, showed sort of really important commitment, including the Earthshot Prize. So and I think Keir said in his speech, you know, we're all in on this. Right. And so we're going to make, you know, we're going to make the argument, we're going to make this argument. And I think the British people want us to make this argument.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:17:44] We want to ask you about the cop and what you want to get out of it. But there's one question I have to put to you, because we've heard it around here from several sources, and that is that. Rachel Reeves, when the decision was taken in the UK not to put money into AF, that actually there was a slightly cynical attempt by some in the Treasury to persuade other donor countries not to put money into. Christiana, I think you actually bit down on the Prime Minister about this, and he denied it pretty comprehensively.
Christiana Figueres: [00:18:06] I was sitting at the Earthshot Awards tonight, sitting between it.
Ed Miliband: [00:18:10] Doesn't sound like you. Christiana to to to to sort of take no quarter and you know poor guy Christian Silva. Um.
Christiana Figueres: [00:18:20] I was sitting between Prince William and Keir Starmer and in one moment in which Prince William conveniently turned to the other side, I went, right, this is my moment because Prince William doesn't want to be involved in this conversation. So I point blindly asked him, we're hearing the Brazilians are hearing that there is a a rumor going around that the UK is not only not going to invest now, and that was pretty confirmed by that time, but that actually the Treasury is lobbying other countries to not come in. To which he said flatly, not true.
Ed Miliband: [00:18:54] And that's right. It's honestly not true. It's just honestly not true. It's someone putting around this rumor. So that's.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:19:00] Great to put.
Ed Miliband: [00:19:01] It to bed. Put it to bed genuinely.
Christiana Figueres: [00:19:03] And we've seen that the countries that were named in that little strange equation have actually put money in.
Ed Miliband: [00:19:08] Yeah. So genuinely it's.
Christiana Figueres: [00:19:09] The that's the.
Ed Miliband: [00:19:10] Confirmation. I think it needs to be firmly squashed.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:19:12] Done now. Done. Yeah. That's very good. All right. Great. Do you want to ask about the cop?
Christiana Figueres: [00:19:15] Well, do I know anything about cops? It seems to me that this is a politically a difficult cop, because we are very much in a transition stage from moving to where we had public attention. Finally, we had achieved public attention in 2015 to focus on one legally binding, comprehensive agreement that everyone was looking at. Every single clause, every single comma. That is not where we are now. Now we are with a reality where the center of gravity has shifted away from single, big, legally binding frameworks to a multi-polar area scenario of a lot of action taking place in many countries, in many sectors, under many coalitions. Much more difficult to wrap your arms around this dissipated success or progress. Much more difficult to bring it together into one package that makes the political argument, and for the Cop presidency even more difficult, because they need to understand how do they sell that diversity of action, not just on a data basis? Here are all the data points that prove that the economy is moving. He needs to sell it politically as being the success of the cop. So it's much more difficult to try to wrap your arms around a complexity that we celebrate. And it's a good news that this is complex and that there are many proof points of it. But how do you communicate.
Ed Miliband: [00:21:04] The answer to that?
Christiana Figueres: [00:21:05] No, that's for you.
Ed Miliband: [00:21:09] Um, look, uh, I'd be interested in your answer to. That was a very good question, if I may say so. Just one thing I think is really, really important to say, because I don't think we say this enough. It goes back to the earlier part of our conversation. We should always begin these conversations by saying, this process is succeeding. This process is succeeding. You and I were both at Copenhagen. We were heading for somewhere between 4 and 5 degrees of global warming. Now we're heading for somewhere between 2.3 and 2.5. Is that good? Definitely, absolutely.
Christiana Figueres: [00:21:42] Is it enough?
Ed Miliband: [00:21:43] Is it enough? It is definitely progress. And look, honestly, if our message to people is, well, we've achieved nothing over 30 years now, trust us to finish the job. You know, people are going to people aren't going to buy it. But the the truth is that we have made progress. And and I think it's so important multilateralism is working and it is hard. It is sweaty, it is painful. It is frustrating. It is tear your hair out, but it is progress on the diversity of what is going on at this cop. I think in a sense, we're in the hard yards and and in the hard yards. Every little piece matters. I just came from a an event that we did on methane with China and Brazil and France and others, Bloomberg Philanthropies, you know, just a range of a range of actors. You know, if we can make progress on methane by 2030, that could get you another fraction of a degree. That's that is the but but I think in a sense, look, you know, lots of people aren't going to pay attention to the detail of this. It seems to me that the answer to your question or the genuine I'd be interested in yours, is we've got to paint the big picture here. The world is moving despite the US. The world is continuing to move. There is a determination to keep going at this because countries see it as in their national interest to do so, both economically and for the future. And this cop makes progress, and we're going to keep making progress, and we're going to show our determination. And look, it seems to me that that's the big message here. And our populations do want to know that we're carrying on. And in a sense, it goes back to this. The thing we were saying earlier, which is, you know, each country showing that they're still in, that they're still acting, will encourage others to carry on acting and carrying on being in. At that point.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:23:30] That was a.
Ed Miliband: [00:23:30] Dramatic. At that point the plant fell over. Ah, well. Brazilian tree. Okay.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:23:38] I think that's probably wise.
Christiana Figueres: [00:23:40] I think that's the safe spot. Yeah.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:23:42] Well, it worked for a while.
Christiana Figueres: [00:23:43] I don't know if that was the plant agreeing or disagreeing.
Ed Miliband: [00:23:46] What do you think? Agreement. Agreement. Agreed. Nodding.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:23:52] So I mean, that narrative of as Christiana was setting up, there's so much now going on, but we can't really put our arms around it. And at the end of this cop, what always happens is likely to happen again, right? Which is the media get fixated on the specific language in the final communique and, you know, did it include this word or that word? But actually, that's not really the story here, right? This is about the implementation Cop. This is about everybody moving forward and actually taking action. So how do we change the way the world understands what is happening at these cops to make them more about a coalition of action rather than particular language? Ten years after Paris, I.
Ed Miliband: [00:24:28] Think there is a big responsibility on parties here. Actually, the of in this moment of all moments, which is not to nitpick in the pedantic detail at the end. I mean, okay, the whole thing is about picking the pedantic detail in a way, but the negotiations and that's understandable. But to unite on a big message at the end. And I think what's interesting is that the global context is making people really think. Countries really think, do we really want this to carry on? And the answer is yes. Are we committed to this process? And so I hope in some sense that that context will have a galvanizing effect on countries realizing, look, if this is in our interests, which it is this, this process carrying on and us continuing to make progress, we need to really get behind it and, and and get behind a narrative that accepts you don't ever get anything you want in negotiation. Et cetera, et cetera. But that we are you know, we are moving forward.
Christiana Figueres: [00:25:27] When I walked in yesterday to what will become the cop venue on Monday, I was struck by the metaphor that we were. Have you been in the building yet?
Ed Miliband: [00:25:36] Yes, yes.
Christiana Figueres: [00:25:37] So I was I was struck by the metaphor that we walked into an area that is very visibly under construction, and you can hear the construction. You can see the construction. If you use your imagination, you can begin to look in your mind's eye. What is it going to look like? But right now you can't see that. You can see a wall here, an ark there. You can, you know, hear the drills. You can see the carpenters. We're in a global construction site. Yeah. We have a very clear architectural design of what this is going to be, which is the global economy that is going to be at net zero by 2050. And we have, I would say, the instructions on how do we move from where we are to that new reality. But right now we're at the point where we need to say, okay, where are the bricks, where is the cement, where is the scaffolding? You know, who's going to come and where are the doorframes? And, and and that complexity of building a huge list think that we're building, I don't know, a huge they don't they don't build cathedrals anymore. I think Barcelona was the last cathedral that was built. But this is about a multi-decadal build of a new economy, a new society, and we need all of the different components to come together. So to judge it on, well, you know, do we have enough cement yet or do we have enough window frames or enough, you know, it's it is it's to miss the macro picture, destination outcome design that we have all agreed to and that still remains under construction. Would you agree with that metaphor? All metaphors are incomplete and imperfect.
Ed Miliband: [00:27:33] But it's a brilliant metaphor. I think it's a brilliant metaphor, but. But as I was thinking, as you were saying that, that you can start to see the design, the construction, can't you? I mean, you can at the venue. Um, and you can on this and I just one thing I'm really struck by is one of the questions people will be asking on this. Listening to this podcast is, okay, it's all very well. You've made progress to 2.3 to 2.5, but that's incredibly scary compared to 1.5. There's this notion of negative tipping points, but we can also have positive tipping points.
Christiana Figueres: [00:28:04] There are many positive tipping points.
Ed Miliband: [00:28:06] You know the takeoff of solar.
Christiana Figueres: [00:28:09] Yes.
Ed Miliband: [00:28:09] Someone was telling me that, you know, if you look at the IEA forecasts, even from ten years ago, we've multiple times.
Christiana Figueres: [00:28:14] 15.
Ed Miliband: [00:28:15] Times times.
Christiana Figueres: [00:28:16] 15.
Ed Miliband: [00:28:17] Times exceeded them. You look at a country like Pakistan, which has suddenly, you know, jumped in the amount of solar that it has. So I think that we are under construction. It is under construction, but the shape of it is becoming more and more visible.
Christiana Figueres: [00:28:33] Yeah. Thank you.
Ed Miliband: [00:28:34] I've got a question for you. Yeah. You're the godmother of the successful cops. Um, if I can put it that way. Uh.
Christiana Figueres: [00:28:42] They're calling me the grandmother by now.
Ed Miliband: [00:28:44] No, I said godmother. I was very careful. Fairy godmother. Uh, I would not call you the grandmother.
Christiana Figueres: [00:28:51] I'm actually quite happy to be the grandmother. But carry on.
Ed Miliband: [00:28:55] Fairy godmother.
Ed Miliband: [00:28:57] You know, do you share my view that for all the frustrations, all the difficulties, this mechanism of accountability, this annual forcing mechanism is really, really important?
Christiana Figueres: [00:29:10] Yes, I do. I do share that view. Um, it is a forcing moment, and it is a forcing moment for what is unfortunately still considered two sides of the equation. One is the political, diplomatic, multilateral side, and the other is what we used to call when I was at the secretary, the real world. And unfortunately, they're still being seen as two sides that are separate and separable. I think one of the huge contributions of this cop. When we look back ten years from now and we look back, is that the distance between these two realities and these two viewpoints is actually coming closer and closer. And I think that is absolutely key to understand that actually, policy, international political signals do have an effect on what is happening on the ground, on investment, on technology progress and the other way around. Technological progress definitely has an influence on what the political arena deems to be viable and be, let's call it, in the interest of political leaders. So the fact that there is a two way street of of mutual support between these two is, I think, where we need to really focus this over the next five years and give up this idea that those two are on completely different sides of the spectrum, and that they have nothing to do with each other. Actually, there are two sides of the same piece of paper.
Ed Miliband: [00:30:48] I do also think it is quite a magical system of accountability where, you know, I was at this event this morning on methane with Barbados. Barbados can say to China and to UK, this is what is happening. This is why this methane thing is so urgent. You know, look at Hurricane Melissa. The impact that that's had on Jamaica. You know it's a forcing mechanism and it's also an accountability mechanism. And and and those things are really important. And just the only other thing to say to your listeners is, you know, I said 40 degrees to two and a half or so. You know, the other thing I'd say when Christiana and I were at Copenhagen, Christiana is better informed than me. I didn't know the term net zero. And now 80% of global GDP is covered by net zero right now. Okay.
Christiana Figueres: [00:31:35] It was one.
Christiana Figueres: [00:31:36] Of the most difficult terms to embed into the Paris Agreement. It happened at the very end.
Ed Miliband: [00:31:40] Exactly. Now, would it have happened without this multilateral process.
Christiana Figueres: [00:31:43] No. No, no. Have happened. No.
Ed Miliband: [00:31:45] So, you know, people should be outraged, but they should be optimistic.
Christiana Figueres: [00:31:50] Well, on that note.
Christiana Figueres: [00:31:51] Thank you so much.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:31:52] Thank you. Ed, really appreciate it.
Ed Miliband: [00:31:54] Thank you so much.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:31:59] I mean, so great to discuss with Ed and hear this. You know, this vision that he's got, this great response, his desire to sort of be front foot on the politics, really ensure that we can keep moving forward. I mean, he put, I thought, a very compelling case together about why this actually not is not only in the public interest, but it's popular with the public. And he's got evidence for it, but he's fighting actually what must sometimes feel like kind of a lonely fight, given that the narrative is not really evidently with him in every moment.
Christiana Figueres: [00:32:30] Yeah. And I would say he's really at the cutting edge of climate, domestic climate politics. Right. I think his journey there to a bring his government with him, right? The rest of the covenant with him to bring public opinion with him, to bring policy with him is commendable and deserves all our admiration and respect, and is very representative of leaders in many nations that are really engaged in this battle. This is not an easy thing, right?
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:33:04] And he has to both win that argument politically, domestically, in a very tough fiscal environment. And as we all know, the solutions to the climate crisis do make more money than the incumbent industries. But transitions are also messy, and that's not the case every year. It takes you a while to prove it, and he has to hold that principle, push it forward, win the domestic arguments, and then take that to the international arena.
Christiana Figueres: [00:33:26] Yeah. And for me, it's how do you close the gap between the theory and the practice? We know that action on climate is good for individuals, is good for the planet, is good for energy, independence is good for, uh, for the natural environment, for land use, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. That is the theory. Now, how do you take that theory and work through all the kinks that are necessary to put it into practice? It's a very different challenge to to develop the theory of social change. Environmental change systems change the path toward global decarbonization. That's easy to do as an academic intellectual exercise. Then when you get off of that level and you have to get your boots dirty and actually get people to support this and to understand it, it's a very different enterprise.
Christiana Figueres: [00:34:22] Totally good for him.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:34:24] Good for him. And, you know, you tease me at the beginning about being too UK focused. And perhaps, perhaps we are in some ways. But I would just point out that this time last year you were not there. I was at Baku at the cop in Azerbaijan and the UK. The Labour government had just taken office and Ed came to the cop with David Lammy, foreign secretary at the time, with Keir Starmer the prime minister, and announced an incredibly ambitious early NDC. And Ed actually launched that on our podcast. We did a live event with him and I said to him then that I had a feeling that I had not had for many years, which was I was proud of my country. You know, we've been through some tough times with Brexit and all these other different things. And actually, despite the political headwinds, I do think particularly Ed, but this government are trying to lead. It's not all perfect. We've talked about some of that stuff, but I am grateful that they're playing the role they are on the world stage.
Christiana Figueres: [00:35:14] Yeah, absolutely. And that they're sticking to it.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:35:16] Absolutely. All right. So I think that's probably enough for today given this was a special conversation. We will be back tomorrow with our opener for the cop. Tomorrow is the first day. It's Monday. It will be the first day of the cop. And we're going to bring some analysis as to what to expect for the next two weeks and speak to the cop president Andre de Lago himself. So we'll see you tomorrow.
Christiana Figueres: [00:35:36] Bye.
Ed Miliband: [00:13:36] They say to me, where are the good jobs that we used to have? I'm not not going backwards to the Commons. And do they say to me, we really care about what we leave to to our future generations? Of course they do. Is the cost of living crisis top of mind? Yes, but we can do both.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:13:53] But do you think that we. So we obviously agree with you. But do do you think that narrative is widely understood and believed in the UK?
Ed Miliband: [00:14:00] You've always got to keep reinforcing the narrative. You've always got to keep having the argument. And there is a right wing ecosystem that wants to propagate an alternative narrative. But, you know, just to go back to this polling point, people still support zero, right? Do you know, if you ask the British population and this may surprise you and your listeners, if they ask, do you think the government is doing enough or not enough on climate change by significant majorities? Enough. Not enough. They say not enough. They say, uh, take the voters that have gone from Labour to reform, because some voters have gone from Labour to reform since the 2024 election by a greater margin than the population as a whole. They think we're not doing enough on the climate crisis. That's people who've gone to reform, right? You know, and in a sense, I just want to go back to this point because globally and nationally, I think the the opponents of action are going through three different phases. There was denial, delay and now there is despair. They want to basically say, well, nobody really believes this anymore. Nobody really wants to do this anymore. Nobody around the world is doing it. Why should we do it? Nobody in the UK wants to do it. It's just not correct and we have to push back against that.
Speaker6: [00:15:17] So one, one way of understanding.
Christiana Figueres: [00:15:18] That, sorry, Tom, could be from the stubborn optimist sitting next to you that we're so close to succeeding. Yeah, that those who are really nervous about their business continuity are just desperately to pick it up, right? Desperately trying to convince everyone else that this is a non-starter. So is it a sign of us not having done enough or not having done the right thing? Or is it a sign that we're getting pretty close to the positive tipping point?
Ed Miliband: [00:15:50] Look, it might Well, I think it's a I think you make a good point. I think it's, it's, it's partly probably a sign that of success and it's partly a sign look in the UK context of a sort of, you know, desperate desire on the part of the Conservative Party for sort of relevance, frankly. I mean, I think with reform, it's part of a just a sort of wholesale import of a us, a bunch of us stuff. Um, and with the Tories, it's like, well, how do we show ourselves to be, uh, sort of relevant, but but, you know, the British people are smart on this by, I think 2 to 1, they say that investing in renewables is is going to give us lower bills compared to investing in fossil fuels. And we're really committed to delivering.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:16:32] But I mean, given that the public are where they say you are, that the public don't want us to abdicate our responsibility, they want us to do what we need to do. Do you think that the decision could have gone differently if we'd sold it differently to the population? Because actually the population don't want tropical forests to be cut down, right? Wouldn't they have come with us by saying we're going to put money in even ahead.
Ed Miliband: [00:16:53] Of not going to second guess decisions made on behalf of the government? Uh, um, but, uh, but but look, I think, I think overall, what I'd say about this cop is not every world leader was here. The Prime Minister took a decision, as he said to me, there can't be some cops. You go to some cops, you don't. You know, he went in opposition. He thought it really mattered. That was why he was here. Uh, you know, amidst all the other things that he has to do, I think the Prince of Wales to sort of really his presence, you know, showed sort of really important commitment, including the Earthshot Prize. So and I think Keir said in his speech, you know, we're all in on this. Right. And so we're going to make, you know, we're going to make the argument, we're going to make this argument. And I think the British people want us to make this argument.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:17:44] We want to ask you about the cop and what you want to get out of it. But there's one question I have to put to you, because we've heard it around here from several sources, and that is that. Rachel Reeves, when the decision was taken in the UK not to put money into AF, that actually there was a slightly cynical attempt by some in the Treasury to persuade other donor countries not to put money into. Christiana, I think you actually bit down on the Prime Minister about this, and he denied it pretty comprehensively.
Christiana Figueres: [00:18:06] I was sitting at the Earthshot Awards tonight, sitting between it.
Ed Miliband: [00:18:10] Doesn't sound like you. Christiana to to to to sort of take no quarter and you know poor guy Christian Silva. Um.
Christiana Figueres: [00:18:20] I was sitting between Prince William and Keir Starmer and in one moment in which Prince William conveniently turned to the other side, I went, right, this is my moment because Prince William doesn't want to be involved in this conversation. So I point blindly asked him, we're hearing the Brazilians are hearing that there is a a rumor going around that the UK is not only not going to invest now, and that was pretty confirmed by that time, but that actually the Treasury is lobbying other countries to not come in. To which he said flatly, not true.
Ed Miliband: [00:18:54] And that's right. It's honestly not true. It's just honestly not true. It's someone putting around this rumor. So that's.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:19:00] Great to put.
Ed Miliband: [00:19:01] It to bed. Put it to bed genuinely.
Christiana Figueres: [00:19:03] And we've seen that the countries that were named in that little strange equation have actually put money in.
Ed Miliband: [00:19:08] Yeah. So genuinely it's.
Christiana Figueres: [00:19:09] The that's the.
Ed Miliband: [00:19:10] Confirmation. I think it needs to be firmly squashed.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:19:12] Done now. Done. Yeah. That's very good. All right. Great. Do you want to ask about the cop?
Christiana Figueres: [00:19:15] Well, do I know anything about cops? It seems to me that this is a politically a difficult cop, because we are very much in a transition stage from moving to where we had public attention. Finally, we had achieved public attention in 2015 to focus on one legally binding, comprehensive agreement that everyone was looking at. Every single clause, every single comma. That is not where we are now. Now we are with a reality where the center of gravity has shifted away from single, big, legally binding frameworks to a multi-polar area scenario of a lot of action taking place in many countries, in many sectors, under many coalitions. Much more difficult to wrap your arms around this dissipated success or progress. Much more difficult to bring it together into one package that makes the political argument, and for the Cop presidency even more difficult, because they need to understand how do they sell that diversity of action, not just on a data basis? Here are all the data points that prove that the economy is moving. He needs to sell it politically as being the success of the cop. So it's much more difficult to try to wrap your arms around a complexity that we celebrate. And it's a good news that this is complex and that there are many proof points of it. But how do you communicate.
Ed Miliband: [00:21:04] The answer to that?
Christiana Figueres: [00:21:05] No, that's for you.
Ed Miliband: [00:21:09] Um, look, uh, I'd be interested in your answer to. That was a very good question, if I may say so. Just one thing I think is really, really important to say, because I don't think we say this enough. It goes back to the earlier part of our conversation. We should always begin these conversations by saying, this process is succeeding. This process is succeeding. You and I were both at Copenhagen. We were heading for somewhere between 4 and 5 degrees of global warming. Now we're heading for somewhere between 2.3 and 2.5. Is that good? Definitely, absolutely.
Christiana Figueres: [00:21:42] Is it enough?
Ed Miliband: [00:21:43] Is it enough? It is definitely progress. And look, honestly, if our message to people is, well, we've achieved nothing over 30 years now, trust us to finish the job. You know, people are going to people aren't going to buy it. But the the truth is that we have made progress. And and I think it's so important multilateralism is working and it is hard. It is sweaty, it is painful. It is frustrating. It is tear your hair out, but it is progress on the diversity of what is going on at this cop. I think in a sense, we're in the hard yards and and in the hard yards. Every little piece matters. I just came from a an event that we did on methane with China and Brazil and France and others, Bloomberg Philanthropies, you know, just a range of a range of actors. You know, if we can make progress on methane by 2030, that could get you another fraction of a degree. That's that is the but but I think in a sense, look, you know, lots of people aren't going to pay attention to the detail of this. It seems to me that the answer to your question or the genuine I'd be interested in yours, is we've got to paint the big picture here. The world is moving despite the US. The world is continuing to move. There is a determination to keep going at this because countries see it as in their national interest to do so, both economically and for the future. And this cop makes progress, and we're going to keep making progress, and we're going to show our determination. And look, it seems to me that that's the big message here. And our populations do want to know that we're carrying on. And in a sense, it goes back to this. The thing we were saying earlier, which is, you know, each country showing that they're still in, that they're still acting, will encourage others to carry on acting and carrying on being in. At that point.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:23:30] That was a.
Ed Miliband: [00:23:30] Dramatic. At that point the plant fell over. Ah, well. Brazilian tree. Okay.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:23:38] I think that's probably wise.
Christiana Figueres: [00:23:40] I think that's the safe spot. Yeah.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:23:42] Well, it worked for a while.
Christiana Figueres: [00:23:43] I don't know if that was the plant agreeing or disagreeing.
Ed Miliband: [00:23:46] What do you think? Agreement. Agreement. Agreed. Nodding.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:23:52] So I mean, that narrative of as Christiana was setting up, there's so much now going on, but we can't really put our arms around it. And at the end of this cop, what always happens is likely to happen again, right? Which is the media get fixated on the specific language in the final communique and, you know, did it include this word or that word? But actually, that's not really the story here, right? This is about the implementation Cop. This is about everybody moving forward and actually taking action. So how do we change the way the world understands what is happening at these cops to make them more about a coalition of action rather than particular language? Ten years after Paris, I.
Ed Miliband: [00:24:28] Think there is a big responsibility on parties here. Actually, the of in this moment of all moments, which is not to nitpick in the pedantic detail at the end. I mean, okay, the whole thing is about picking the pedantic detail in a way, but the negotiations and that's understandable. But to unite on a big message at the end. And I think what's interesting is that the global context is making people really think. Countries really think, do we really want this to carry on? And the answer is yes. Are we committed to this process? And so I hope in some sense that that context will have a galvanizing effect on countries realizing, look, if this is in our interests, which it is this, this process carrying on and us continuing to make progress, we need to really get behind it and, and and get behind a narrative that accepts you don't ever get anything you want in negotiation. Et cetera, et cetera. But that we are you know, we are moving forward.
Christiana Figueres: [00:25:27] When I walked in yesterday to what will become the cop venue on Monday, I was struck by the metaphor that we were. Have you been in the building yet?
Ed Miliband: [00:25:36] Yes, yes.
Christiana Figueres: [00:25:37] So I was I was struck by the metaphor that we walked into an area that is very visibly under construction, and you can hear the construction. You can see the construction. If you use your imagination, you can begin to look in your mind's eye. What is it going to look like? But right now you can't see that. You can see a wall here, an ark there. You can, you know, hear the drills. You can see the carpenters. We're in a global construction site. Yeah. We have a very clear architectural design of what this is going to be, which is the global economy that is going to be at net zero by 2050. And we have, I would say, the instructions on how do we move from where we are to that new reality. But right now we're at the point where we need to say, okay, where are the bricks, where is the cement, where is the scaffolding? You know, who's going to come and where are the doorframes? And, and and that complexity of building a huge list think that we're building, I don't know, a huge they don't they don't build cathedrals anymore. I think Barcelona was the last cathedral that was built. But this is about a multi-decadal build of a new economy, a new society, and we need all of the different components to come together. So to judge it on, well, you know, do we have enough cement yet or do we have enough window frames or enough, you know, it's it is it's to miss the macro picture, destination outcome design that we have all agreed to and that still remains under construction. Would you agree with that metaphor? All metaphors are incomplete and imperfect.
Ed Miliband: [00:27:33] But it's a brilliant metaphor. I think it's a brilliant metaphor, but. But as I was thinking, as you were saying that, that you can start to see the design, the construction, can't you? I mean, you can at the venue. Um, and you can on this and I just one thing I'm really struck by is one of the questions people will be asking on this. Listening to this podcast is, okay, it's all very well. You've made progress to 2.3 to 2.5, but that's incredibly scary compared to 1.5. There's this notion of negative tipping points, but we can also have positive tipping points.
Christiana Figueres: [00:28:04] There are many positive tipping points.
Ed Miliband: [00:28:06] You know the takeoff of solar.
Christiana Figueres: [00:28:09] Yes.
Ed Miliband: [00:28:09] Someone was telling me that, you know, if you look at the IEA forecasts, even from ten years ago, we've multiple times.
Christiana Figueres: [00:28:14] 15.
Ed Miliband: [00:28:15] Times times.
Christiana Figueres: [00:28:16] 15.
Ed Miliband: [00:28:17] Times exceeded them. You look at a country like Pakistan, which has suddenly, you know, jumped in the amount of solar that it has. So I think that we are under construction. It is under construction, but the shape of it is becoming more and more visible.
Christiana Figueres: [00:28:33] Yeah. Thank you.
Ed Miliband: [00:28:34] I've got a question for you. Yeah. You're the godmother of the successful cops. Um, if I can put it that way. Uh.
Christiana Figueres: [00:28:42] They're calling me the grandmother by now.
Ed Miliband: [00:28:44] No, I said godmother. I was very careful. Fairy godmother. Uh, I would not call you the grandmother.
Christiana Figueres: [00:28:51] I'm actually quite happy to be the grandmother. But carry on.
Ed Miliband: [00:28:55] Fairy godmother.
Ed Miliband: [00:28:57] You know, do you share my view that for all the frustrations, all the difficulties, this mechanism of accountability, this annual forcing mechanism is really, really important?
Christiana Figueres: [00:29:10] Yes, I do. I do share that view. Um, it is a forcing moment, and it is a forcing moment for what is unfortunately still considered two sides of the equation. One is the political, diplomatic, multilateral side, and the other is what we used to call when I was at the secretary, the real world. And unfortunately, they're still being seen as two sides that are separate and separable. I think one of the huge contributions of this cop. When we look back ten years from now and we look back, is that the distance between these two realities and these two viewpoints is actually coming closer and closer. And I think that is absolutely key to understand that actually, policy, international political signals do have an effect on what is happening on the ground, on investment, on technology progress and the other way around. Technological progress definitely has an influence on what the political arena deems to be viable and be, let's call it, in the interest of political leaders. So the fact that there is a two way street of of mutual support between these two is, I think, where we need to really focus this over the next five years and give up this idea that those two are on completely different sides of the spectrum, and that they have nothing to do with each other. Actually, there are two sides of the same piece of paper.
Ed Miliband: [00:30:48] I do also think it is quite a magical system of accountability where, you know, I was at this event this morning on methane with Barbados. Barbados can say to China and to UK, this is what is happening. This is why this methane thing is so urgent. You know, look at Hurricane Melissa. The impact that that's had on Jamaica. You know it's a forcing mechanism and it's also an accountability mechanism. And and and those things are really important. And just the only other thing to say to your listeners is, you know, I said 40 degrees to two and a half or so. You know, the other thing I'd say when Christiana and I were at Copenhagen, Christiana is better informed than me. I didn't know the term net zero. And now 80% of global GDP is covered by net zero right now. Okay.
Christiana Figueres: [00:31:35] It was one.
Christiana Figueres: [00:31:36] Of the most difficult terms to embed into the Paris Agreement. It happened at the very end.
Ed Miliband: [00:31:40] Exactly. Now, would it have happened without this multilateral process.
Christiana Figueres: [00:31:43] No. No, no. Have happened. No.
Ed Miliband: [00:31:45] So, you know, people should be outraged, but they should be optimistic.
Christiana Figueres: [00:31:50] Well, on that note.
Christiana Figueres: [00:31:51] Thank you so much.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:31:52] Thank you. Ed, really appreciate it.
Ed Miliband: [00:31:54] Thank you so much.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:31:59] I mean, so great to discuss with Ed and hear this. You know, this vision that he's got, this great response, his desire to sort of be front foot on the politics, really ensure that we can keep moving forward. I mean, he put, I thought, a very compelling case together about why this actually not is not only in the public interest, but it's popular with the public. And he's got evidence for it, but he's fighting actually what must sometimes feel like kind of a lonely fight, given that the narrative is not really evidently with him in every moment.
Christiana Figueres: [00:32:30] Yeah. And I would say he's really at the cutting edge of climate, domestic climate politics. Right. I think his journey there to a bring his government with him, right? The rest of the covenant with him to bring public opinion with him, to bring policy with him is commendable and deserves all our admiration and respect, and is very representative of leaders in many nations that are really engaged in this battle. This is not an easy thing, right?
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:33:04] And he has to both win that argument politically, domestically, in a very tough fiscal environment. And as we all know, the solutions to the climate crisis do make more money than the incumbent industries. But transitions are also messy, and that's not the case every year. It takes you a while to prove it, and he has to hold that principle, push it forward, win the domestic arguments, and then take that to the international arena.
Christiana Figueres: [00:33:26] Yeah. And for me, it's how do you close the gap between the theory and the practice? We know that action on climate is good for individuals, is good for the planet, is good for energy, independence is good for, uh, for the natural environment, for land use, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. That is the theory. Now, how do you take that theory and work through all the kinks that are necessary to put it into practice? It's a very different challenge to to develop the theory of social change. Environmental change systems change the path toward global decarbonization. That's easy to do as an academic intellectual exercise. Then when you get off of that level and you have to get your boots dirty and actually get people to support this and to understand it, it's a very different enterprise.
Christiana Figueres: [00:34:22] Totally good for him.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:34:24] Good for him. And, you know, you tease me at the beginning about being too UK focused. And perhaps, perhaps we are in some ways. But I would just point out that this time last year you were not there. I was at Baku at the cop in Azerbaijan and the UK. The Labour government had just taken office and Ed came to the cop with David Lammy, foreign secretary at the time, with Keir Starmer the prime minister, and announced an incredibly ambitious early NDC. And Ed actually launched that on our podcast. We did a live event with him and I said to him then that I had a feeling that I had not had for many years, which was I was proud of my country. You know, we've been through some tough times with Brexit and all these other different things. And actually, despite the political headwinds, I do think particularly Ed, but this government are trying to lead. It's not all perfect. We've talked about some of that stuff, but I am grateful that they're playing the role they are on the world stage.
Christiana Figueres: [00:35:14] Yeah, absolutely. And that they're sticking to it.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:35:16] Absolutely. All right. So I think that's probably enough for today given this was a special conversation. We will be back tomorrow with our opener for the cop. Tomorrow is the first day. It's Monday. It will be the first day of the cop. And we're going to bring some analysis as to what to expect for the next two weeks and speak to the cop president Andre de Lago himself. So we'll see you tomorrow.
Christiana Figueres: [00:35:36] Bye.
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