328: Inside COP: Protests at COP30 - and the reality of Indigenous representation
From finance to flotillas, and from protest to participation, this episode traces how Indigenous leadership is being expressed - and tested - at COP30 in Belém.
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About this episode
At a COP meant to centre the Amazon, some Indigenous voices have found themselves on the outside.
On Tuesday night, what began as a vibrant street march ended in a dramatic breach of the Blue Zone, as Indigenous protesters passed through the barriers of the official venue. What does this moment tell us about who gets to shape the ‘Amazon COP’? From finance to flotillas, and from protest to participation, this episode traces how Indigenous leadership is being expressed - and tested - in Belém.
Manuella Cantalice, Focal Point for Indigenous Peoples and Local Communities at the Tropical Forest Forever Facility (TFFF), shares how Indigenous and local communities are co-designing a global financial mechanism - reflecting the novel ways in which Indigenous leadership is being built into the architecture of climate finance at COP30.
Indigenous communicator Levi Tapuia, who arrived in at the COP after a 31-day flotilla, describes a voyage retracing the routes of colonisation - and contrasts the sense of unity on the river with the divisions he’s witnessed on the ground in Belém.
And Helena Gualinga, Indigenous and climate advocate, reflects on the frustration felt by many participants at COP30, and on the ongoing challenge of turning symbolic inclusion into meaningful influence.
Where are the tensions between visibility and voice, inclusion and influence - and what it will take for Indigenous leadership to shape not just the storytelling of COP30, but its outcomes?
Learn more:
📣 Find out more about the protests at the COP30 venue
🌳 Read all about the Tropical Forest Forever Facility
🌍 Check out the official COP30 website for background and announcements
🎤 What do you want to hear on Inside COP? Ask us on SpeakPipe or on our socials where you can also see more behind the scenes moments and to watch our videos:
Instagram @outrageoptimism
LinkedIn @outrageoptimism
Or via this form.
Producer: Ben Weaver-Hincks
Edited by: Miles Martignoni
Video Producer: Caitlin Hanrahan
Translations by: Camilo Ramos and Juanita Silva
Exec Producer: Ellie Clifford
With thanks to Groundswell and Global Optimism.
This is a Persephonica production for Global Optimism and is part of the Acast Creator Network.
Full Transcript
Transcript generated by AI. While we aim for accuracy, errors may still occur. Please refer to the episode’s audio for the definitive version
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:00:03] Hello and welcome to Outrage and Optimism. No, I know every time.Christiana Figueres: [00:00:09] Try again.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:00:10] Hello and welcome to Inside Cop from Outrage and Optimism. Hello and welcome. Hello and welcome to Inside Cop. From Outrage and optimism I'm Tom Rivett-carnac.
Christiana Figueres: [00:00:18] I'm Christiana Figueres.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:00:20] Today we bring you inside some of the issues surrounding the Cop related to indigenous voices. Thanks for being here. So this cop, Christiana, has been meant to center indigenous voices. However, what we have been hearing in the last 24 hours is that some of those indigenous voices have found themselves on the outside of where they want to be. As you covered at the beginning of yesterday's episode.
Christiana Figueres: [00:00:44] Find themselves outside or find themselves not directly consulted or not properly represented. In any event, there seems to be a gap between the Cop presidencies. Sees very noble commitment to give an unprecedented voice to indigenous communities and what the indigenous communities are feeling about that.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:01:13] Mhm. And last night, as you talked about, there was a march that took place in the streets, which felt energetic and celebratory initially. But as they reached the official cop buildings, a clash occurred. Security guards attempted to block entry with tables. Some guards were reported injured, one with a cut and another evacuated, and some damage was incurred to the venue doors. The groups included members of different organizations linked to environmental activism, and following the breach, the venue's security was restored and the UN and Brazilian authorities say they are investigating. And we're hearing various motivations for the protesters, aren't we?
Christiana Figueres: [00:01:52] Yeah, some some take a, um, a very specific, localized view saying that these indigenous peoples are local here to the state of para, and that they were basically taking advantage of the media and public attention of the Cop to protest against the governor of para. And other people feel that this actually could even be a broader issue, that there are not just para in indigenous peoples, but that there is a complaint coming from broader Brazilian indigenous peoples about some of the treatment that they perceive they're getting from the Brazilian government and from policies. For example, they are not happy about newly approved licenses in oil and gas exploration, agribusiness expansion, mining and illegal logging. So those types of things that are well embedded, honestly, well embedded in the history here of the Amazon.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:03:05] Absolutely. And as we'll hear in this episode, I mean, as, as listeners will know and and we will hear again, indigenous people obviously suffer huge injustices in many parts of the world. Um, and it's been a real issue here. I mean, I have to say, at the cop, there are more indigenous people present at this cop, I think, than I have ever witnessed before. It's a significant proportion of those who are both present inside 5000.
Christiana Figueres: [00:03:29] There seems to be that number that everyone seems to agree with. 5000 indigenous people from all countries. Right? From around the world. That is truly unprecedented.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:03:41] Truly unprecedented. And today they actually took part in an amazing flotilla of 200 boats, indigenous people, other activists occupied Guajara Bay in a historic act for the Amazon and for climate justice. And the chief Raoni Metuktire reminded the world of a simple truth. He said the forest lives because we are here. If they remove the people, the forest will die with them. So this is the message that's being brought into the cop. And the indigenous people really want their voice to be heard.
Christiana Figueres: [00:04:11] Yeah. So let's get into this conversation, because I think there are quite a few aspects of this. Who is inside the venue? Who's outside the venue? Who is inside the conversation? Who is out, who sits at a decision table and who does not? What is the difference between having your voice heard or being part, let's say, of a tokenistic measure which some people feel that they have been subjected to? And what is the difference between that and actually being part of the decision making process? And that, of course, all sits above. What are the tensions in Brazil's own relationship with its indigenous citizens, and speaks more to the participation that has traditionally been given, or not to indigenous voices within the climate convention?
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:05:11] Absolutely. So, so, so let's get into this. And we have a couple of fantastic indigenous voices on the podcast today. But first of all, one issue we wanted to delve into specifically is the Tropical Forest Forever facility, which has been such an important part of this first week. So we reached out to the EFF for a comment on how they have been engaging with indigenous people through the design of that program, and we got this note back from Manuella Cantalice, the focal point for indigenous peoples and local communities.
Christiana Figueres: [00:05:39] And just before we listen to her, let's just remember that the design of this facility is, again, unprecedented in both of its financial structures that it is proposing, but also in its commitment to take 20% of the revenue and put it at the disposal of indigenous peoples. I've just never seen anything like this.
Manuella Cantalice: [00:06:09] Hi there. My name is Manuela. I'm serving as the focal point for indigenous peoples and local communities for TF, and since the beginning of the year, at the request of the Brazilian government, a task force was established to really lead the global engagement with IPS and LCS, to co-design TF dedicated financial allocation and to really walk the talk, we have invited the Global Alliance of Territorial Communities to ATC that represents 30 million people, 24 countries, almost a billion hectares of standing forest. To really be a part of this team, working with us to make sure that we were hearing indigenous and local communities voices around the world. And since then, we've established a global steering committee of nlc's of 17 organizations. We had several meetings throughout the year, some face to face, other were virtual, and one of my favorite moments of the year was actually in Brazzaville, Congo, when we had a chance to engage 400 indigenous and local community leaders to really share about TF and also get feedback around this dedicated finance allocation. And I cannot help to feel very excited about what we have built together, this minimum 20% allocation that can really increase direct access to the frontline stewards, but also the fact that we've brought them to the decision making table to actually design this financial mechanism with us. I believe this is the first in many ways, but I hope that this is also establishing a new way forward, that this is going to be the new normal, uh, from from here onwards. And uh, being in Berlin, I can also not help to, to imagine that we can do so much more that we need to involve indigenous peoples and local communities. So much more here. What are their frustrations, their worries, as well as their hopes and their ideas to make this really work and reach people on the ground?
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:08:22] So great that Manuela was able to send us that note. And interesting to hear. I mean, you know, no process is perfect, but what's clear is they have really tried to engage as they can, with indigenous communities. I'm sure there's more that could be done, however. Interesting to hear the reflection of the efforts they've been putting in place.
Christiana Figueres: [00:08:38] Yeah, and as I said before, really unprecedented. Um, yes, I agree with you, Tom, that more can be done. I'm sort of. I think this is one of momentum over perfection once again. Um, great start to to have done this consultation and I think by self-admission of themselves that they know that much more needs to be done. But a good start.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:09:05] Great. So should we should we move on with this episode because we have some great conversations? Okay, so Levi Tapuia, um, actually was part of a remarkable flotilla, not the flotilla of 200 boats that went out into the bay near Belém today, but actually traveled down the Amazon through multiple countries. Christiana, you had this amazing conversation with him. How do you want to set this up?
Christiana Figueres: [00:09:26] Yeah. So amazing. So Levi calls himself a an indigenous communicator, which I thought was such a wonderful title, and he told us the story of this boat that he calls the flotilla. But it's a single boat, which came through for 31 days, came through four countries with 60 people on it. They didn't know each other basically before they boarded the boat. But how they came to be a family and how they came to know each other's struggles. And then so interesting that at the end, because they knew each other so well, they have actually authorized each other to speak for the whole group. And we know how difficult it is for anyone in indigenous communities to come to that level of trust and authorization of someone else to speak for them.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:10:25] So, so fantastic. Such a great conversation. Let's let's have a listen.
Christiana Figueres: [00:10:28] Yeah. And just so listeners understand the the context, he came into our podcast studio at Ted countdown House in his Is a very impressive leather necklace and he spoke in Portuguese. I interviewed him in Spanish and we have now, for listeners, done voiceovers of both of us. I have done my own voiceover and Camilo Ramos has very kindly done a voice over of Levy speaking to me, originally in Portuguese. Bueno. Muchas gracias por venir. Levi. Hello. Thank you very much for being here. I'd like to start by inviting you to introduce yourself in the way that you would like to introduce yourself.
Levi Tapuia: [00:11:28] Levy. So. My name is Levy. I'm from Bahia, from the Chapada Diamantina region, and I'm an indigenous As communicator. I'm part of flotilla that crossed from Ecuador to Berlin, and I'm also part of the first indigenous communication organization in Brazil of only indigenous people.
Christiana Figueres: [00:11:51] And you came with the indigenous flotilla. Can you tell us what route you took to get here?
Levi Tapuia: [00:12:01] So yes, actually we traveled the colonizers route, but in reverse. We went back along the path. Colonization followed to decolonize it. It makes me happy to talk about that.
Christiana Figueres: [00:12:15] Cuantos dias? How many days was that journey?
Levi Tapuia: [00:12:19] It was 31 days of travel.
Christiana Figueres: [00:12:23] 31 days. And looking at it from the perspective of today's borders, which countries did you pass through?
Levi Tapuia: [00:12:32] We started in Ecuador because of the oil drilling. Then we passed through Peru, and from there we reached Colombia. After Colombia, we entered Brazil. So those were the four countries we crossed.
Speaker5: [00:12:46] Ademas, muchos indigenas de varios paises.
Levi Tapuia: [00:12:50] There were many indigenous peoples from different countries, not just those four. There were people from Mexico, Indonesia, many others. Together we exchanged experiences, exchanging the words to talk about what each of our territories like. We would sit together one by one and ask a question that seemed simple, but for us, it wasn't simple at all. What is your territory like? Some would talk about how beautiful their rivers and habitats are, and others would talk about wars and conflicts. Through that process, we learned what each territory is like, what the conflicts are, the problems and the struggles so that we could always stand as allies in the flotilla. We say we became a family.
Christiana Figueres: [00:13:42] Levi. Me imagino estos dias juntos de esta familia. Levi. I imagine that during those days together, this family which you became could celebrate and honor the many differences among you. But maybe you also found things in common. What came up that was in common?
Speaker5: [00:14:03] La lucha. La lucha.
Levi Tapuia: [00:14:06] I think it's the fight. The fight of indigenous people. Even though we are different, our fights are similar. For example, we face the fight against the oil drilling in Brazil with the authorization to open new wells in the Amazon. And at the same time that this authorization was happening, we were in Ecuador visiting an oil company that has destroyed the landscape and the territory there.
Christiana Figueres: [00:14:36] Levi y ahora después de. Now, after such a powerful journey, one that crossed many countries, many rivers and many hearts. Now that you have arrived here in Belem for cop 30, what do you and your group hope to achieve with your presence here?
Speaker5: [00:14:55] Primeiramente la protezione ambientale.
Levi Tapuia: [00:14:58] First and foremost, environmental protection. We're talking about oil companies, mining companies. And it's always the same story. The big Brazilian corporations that finance everything are the ones sitting and negotiating tables to talk about environmental protection, even though they are the ones destroying it. It makes no sense. Cops, for me, makes no sense if you are talking about environmental protections while indigenous peoples are left outside and a big institutions are sitting at the table negotiating our lives. That's why people see indigenous indignation. And it's not just from Brazil, it's from around the world. Because this is the first cop with more than 3000 indigenous participants. And now we are already at 6000 negotiations.
Speaker5: [00:15:57] Acontece dentro de la zona azul. Estamos aqui fora.
Levi Tapuia: [00:16:00] Negotiations happening inside the blue zone. But we indigenous peoples are negotiating outside with other indigenous people, with activists, with civil society.
Levi Tapuia: [00:16:13] Porque queremos nosso planeta sobrevive.
Levi Tapuia: [00:16:16] Because what you want is for our planet to survive.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:16:20] What a remarkable leader. I mean, I loved sitting there listening to that interview to the degree that I could understand it, but amazing sitting there talking to him and just seems to have such a moral clarity in what is now needed at this moment. How was it having the discussion?
Christiana Figueres: [00:16:33] Yeah, it was it was really very moving because he started off, of course, by emphasizing the differences among all of them, and then ended up coming to the conclusion that there's more commonality than there are differences. And the commonality centers in what I would call the postcolonial, although he didn't use the word, but the struggle that they continue to have to have their lands respected, to have their culture respected, to have their intricate relationship with nature and with forest respected, and this being their common struggle independently of what population, indigenous population they belong to, what country they come to, which river they come from. This is the struggle and the challenge that they're all dealing with.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:17:31] And it was interesting to hear him talk about how, you know, they they do feel excluded from what's happening here in Belgium. And I think we should notice and we should all be aware of that fact that there is a deep sense of exclusion and that they are finding other ways to negotiate together and find pathways forward and use that opportunity to meet others in this place, even though they don't feel like they are being recognized in the formal process.
Christiana Figueres: [00:17:53] I should just clarify that. Of course, the the way that the Cop is being run is to a large extent inherited from the design of cops and the way that cops have been run for 29 years. So the fact that Brazil is making such an effort to be innovative and to be more open and more inclusive is is very laudable and highly, um, highly admired. And they themselves Have to open their way with respect to the legacy that they have inherited.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:18:32] Right. They can't change everything all at once.
Christiana Figueres: [00:18:35] Exactly.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:18:36] Okay. And in a way, these conversations that we have now are building one on top of another. And we have a final discussion with for you, but it's a really special one. We have wanted to get Helena Gualinga on the podcast for a long time. We first met her, Cristiano on a on a rooftop in Manhattan and had a conversation with her some years ago, and I know you've had an ongoing dialogue with her in the years since, but we did finally get a chance to sit down with her today in Belém. She's been advocating for indigenous communities and climate action since she was a child, and speaks about what she's witnessed. This is an incredible conversation from a remarkable young indigenous leader. Anything you want to say before we start?
Christiana Figueres: [00:19:14] Yeah. Just to clarify that she is not from Brazil. She is from Ecuador, as she will present herself. Um, and and yes, a real a leader from a very, very young age. And now realizing that in order to continue her leadership, she's sort of has to join the mainstream by getting a degree from Yale University. How wonderful. How she manages to bring both her loyalty and her embodiment of her indigenous roots, together with the education that she's getting now at one of the best universities in the world.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:20:00] Let's go to the discussion. Helena, I wonder if you could start off by just introducing yourself. Load More
Helena Gualinga: [00:20:11] Sure. My name is Helena Gualinga. I come from the Kichwa people of Sarayaku in the Ecuadorian Amazon. I grew up in Sarayaku and I've spent my life partially in Ecuador, in Amazon, in Sarayaku, but also in Finland, where my dad is from, and I've since a very early age engaged in advocacy and I guess what people know as activism. But that was very like a just natural part of my life, because I grew up in a family that was so heavily involved in land defense work, and then I decided to get my own hands dirty and started campaigning and working on the ground to defend the Amazon from mining oil and whatnot and defending indigenous people's rights.
Christiana Figueres: [00:20:48] And you're now a student at Yale.
Helena Gualinga: [00:20:50] And now I'm a student at Yale. That's kind of what I'm up to now. Yeah.
Christiana Figueres: [00:20:55] Elena, we came here with the expectation that this would be a very different cup with respect to the presence of Indigenous and First Nations people, because of everything that we've been hearing from the Cop presidency, and we're sort of ground truthing that. How has that been expressed in the reality that we're seeing here at the Cop or not?
Helena Gualinga: [00:21:20] One of the most important things that this cop was Enhaced participation, which what I'm hearing from people inside is that they're not just being denied the floor, but also just entry to the negotiating spaces. So the Indigenous Peoples constituency, which is the indigenous peoples negotiating body at the UN, is being denied entry and they are let in upon insistence or, you know, like pulling the strings, but that shouldn't be the case. They should be respected as the autonomous governments that we are. And so the kind of narrative around this being the indigenous cop is, I guess it's sort of concerning because it is some sort of indigenous washing, almost of of the cop. And I think even just before getting here, I personally was really excited about seeing if indigenous peoples for the first time were going to have the floor, and especially as it is in our home in the Amazon rainforest. I mean, like what I've said for so many years is our territories, our lands, our rights are being negotiated elsewhere, and now it's come here to our home, basically. Are we going to be able to have a say? And what I'm hearing is that we are not. And it's really concerning and disappointing.
Christiana Figueres: [00:22:29] Is that what the protests were about?
Helena Gualinga: [00:22:31] What I'm hearing from them? I was I was just in a in a brief conversation with some people that participated yesterday, and it wasn't organized necessarily by us. The the general indigenous movement, rather by leaders who are being excluded from the official spaces. I mean, the access to badges to the blue zone is so incredibly restricted. We we are on indigenous land here, and even those indigenous leaders who are from these lands are not being included and let in and separately from the cop. I mean, oil drilling was just given a announced and given a green light here in para, which is something else that indigenous peoples from para are upset about and denouncing and beyond to.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:23:20] Um, you talked about like indigenous washing because there's been so much narrative up till this point that this would be the cop of the indigenous. Do you feel like there has been an outreach to indigenous communities to help co-create what's happened here? Because that's certainly the narrative that's being told.
Helena Gualinga: [00:23:36] I don't know, I am sure that there has been some efforts, I think, with just the fact that there is a ministry of indigenous peoples in Brazil. So much work is being done through that. And I think although that exists, I don't know if that's been enough. And Brazil is huge and Latin America is huge. And like there's so many people, it's really a challenge to make sure that everyone is included. However, the fact that people within the negotiating spaces, those that have the blue badge like the badges to the blue zones, that they are not being given the floor or able to participate, I think that is like what represents, Presents also how people are being treated outside.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:24:18] One of the really big things the government of Brazil has tried to focus the world's attention on. Here is around forest protection of standing forest. The tropical forest Forever facility. And and that's been one of the sources of momentum. But it's also something we've heard pretty mixed reports about in terms of the indigenous consultations and engagements, because this is all about protecting indigenous land. Is there anything that you would say about that, from the conversations you've had around how you feel that's been structured and whether it's been appropriate?
Helena Gualinga: [00:24:48] Indigenous people in Brazil have been calling for the demarcation of their lands for, you know, before this government, during this government, we heard cacique, one of the biggest, most respected chiefs in from the Brazilian Amazon, from the Kayapo people denouncing President Lula, um, which I think speaks a lot to kind of the expectations that were set. Um, and what's actually being met. Um, and, you know, their oil drilling happening, you know, mining expansion happening again. This is very limited to Brazil. And I can speak more to, to those things in Ecuador. But there's definitely a huge disappointment because there was so much that was promised and very little is being done. And especially when it comes to the land demarcations and securing indigenous people's rights in this country, which is like this constant battle of just maintaining what already is. And there's like Bill after Bill coming after indigenous peoples all the time.
Christiana Figueres: [00:25:43] So that's a domestic Brazil issue. It's not necessarily a Cop 30 issue or is it being demonstrated there?
Helena Gualinga: [00:25:50] I mean, the indigenous people's participation has been a Cop issue, a UNF triple C issue. Uh, and it's been something that we've advocated for for so long. I think there was an expectation that was set that this cop was going to be different, but it is business as usual. So there is the same issue that we've seen for the whatever, 30 years of Cop. And then there is these domestic issues with indigenous people's rights in Brazil and Ecuador and Colombia and Peru that we can all speak to. These issues kind of go hand in hand and excludes indigenous peoples from participating anywhere. I mean, we're not having a say in what happens to our lands back home or here, those who are from here. And then when it comes to kind of setting these global international frameworks at Cop and we're trying to do it that way, then we're being, you know, the door is shut in our face.
Christiana Figueres: [00:26:38] Just one more question. Elena. And I don't know whether you are, um, apprised of the fact that in the biological biology, in the biological convention at the CBD that just happened in Cali, Colombia, they adopted something that was very innovative and a long time coming, and that is they created what is called an UN, a subsidiary body, which is nothing other than a platform, but a very important platform to bring together. And the plot. This SB subsidiary body is dedicated to the rights and traditions of Indigenous and First Nation peoples. And I honestly somehow expected that something like that would happen in within the climate convention. I have been looking and I don't see any proposal to that. And I've been wondering why has that not been proposed, if it's possible for one of the conventions that came out from Rio? It ought to be possible for another one. Have you heard any any interest in something like that?
Helena Gualinga: [00:27:52] No, I'm not familiar with kind of how that is set up, but I haven't heard anything similar being proposed here or being, you know, curated for indigenous peoples to participate. No.
Christiana Figueres: [00:28:04] I'm going to start spilling the idea everywhere. Yeah.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:28:09] Starting here.
Christiana Figueres: [00:28:10] Starting here.
Christiana Figueres: [00:28:11] I think it's rather unfortunate that we have fallen into the simplistic thinking of assuming that when we use the word indigenous communities or First Nations peoples, that that that covers the gamut. It's a little bit like walking into the Amazon and using the name of one tree, and assuming that that represents the entire Amazon. So could you give us a flavor of the diversity that is under that?
Helena Gualinga: [00:28:42] Yeah, I love the the example with the tree. I think it really speaks to it. Yes. Indigenous peoples are so incredibly diverse and different, and I think there's a lot of shared values that brings us together. But again, we all have our own governing bodies and our own kind of governance structures and representation structures that we function through. Just in Ecuador. We are. I mean, my people are very, very, very small people, but we live and practice autonomy and sovereignty. And so does everyone else. And putting us all together in a box, I think, has been damaging or detrimental to that sovereignty and independence and not being able to see that there is so much diversity within indigenous communities, and especially when it comes to a place like Cop, I think it's been very easy to just check the box for an indigenous individual. Even myself, I am an indigenous individual. I'm not representing. I'm not representing my people even unless they have told me. Okay, go on the podcast and represent Sarayaku, which you know, that has happened a few times when they do. So I'm happy to do and it's the biggest honor. But if that doesn't happen, I'm representing my own individual. And I think at these spaces, it's very easy to just have the almost as indigenous peoples have been tokenized and erases completely the the diversity, not just within the Amazon, but within, you know, in Ecuador, there's indigenous people from the mountains or from the Andes, from the highlands that are so different to indigenous peoples from the Amazon. And erasing that diversity limits us and limits our participation.
Christiana Figueres: [00:30:21] And I think the challenge with that is, how do you honor and respect that diversity and have a representation that allows for all of those peoples to speak with a voice that represents all, without having millions of people at the table?
Helena Gualinga: [00:30:44] Exactly one step forward would be have the people that already are inside to have a seat at the table. I mean, if those who are today representing us with the limited representation that we have and they are not able to be at the table, be able to speak. I mean then we like that is that is the issue. And then we can work inwards and see okay, how do we organize better and how do we make sure that the participation is better represented. But we got to start with the very basic issues that we're seeing.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:31:18] And one of the things that we heard a lot about coming here was about consultations with indigenous to ensure that policies, maybe from Brazil, represented indigenous perspectives, particularly when it comes to forest policies. What does best practice look like in terms of that consultation? Because, as you said, the diversity there means you have to respect that and engage broadly. But are there ways to engage that do meet the necessity of of the broad conversation, despite how many options there are to engage?
Helena Gualinga: [00:31:49] Yeah, I mean, I think that one of the what is it called like sidelined pieces of free prior and informed consent is prior. So it needs to happen have prior to anything happening.
Christiana Figueres: [00:32:02] Like, it's sort of what it means.
Christiana Figueres: [00:32:03] Yeah. Prior.
Helena Gualinga: [00:32:04] Yeah, exactly. Um, and again, I can I can only speak to kind of where I come from with, with more detail. But in Sarayaku, for example, we have our own free prior and informed consent law. And it's like, if you guys want to talk to us, read this first. And there it says, like, we're not open to even engaging in a consultation process with an oil company or a mining company. Like we don't want to be consulted. And there's a clear, you know, like step by step. This is what Free and Prior looks like for us. And this is how our decision making looks like. This is how our culture ways of making decision looks like. And you kind of, you know, this is what this it's it's there and it's it's online. You know, you can look it up if you want to. So like so that's for my people. Um, again, I'm sure it's very different here and it's diverse. And then if you truly want to do it right, then you got to put in the effort and go and learn, right?
Christiana Figueres: [00:33:00] Thank you.
Helena Gualinga: [00:33:01] Of course. Thank you so much for having me. It's been such an honor.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:33:05] I mean, I have to say, I learned so much sitting there, talking to Helena, learning from her worldview and this moment and what's required. And we should explain to listeners that actually, there was a lot more to that conversation, specifically relating in particular to her home in Ecuador and what's happening there at the moment and the challenges they're facing. Will will put that out soon. But for now, Christiana, what what did you what did you take from that conversation?
Christiana Figueres: [00:33:27] I took such a moving commitment from her to remain so embedded and so rooted in the the belief system, the cultural values, the traditions, the challenges of her people. So respectful of that and to have such a respectful way of voicing it, of going out into the other part of the world, into the other cultures, to be a voice for her peoples. I just I just got such a sense of respect and love for her own family, her own legacy, her own community.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:34:15] Yeah. What it means to be rooted in a place is something that I think most of us struggle to really understand at a real depth, and it's palpable when you see in those conversations how it feels to come from those places. So amazing how she is. I mean, she's so brave. The elements of the of the interview that maybe weren't put out here just really detail what she's facing in her home country and how she is bringing that deep determination to, uh, to serve her, her community and help address the challenges. So, I mean, where does that leave us? Christiana, we've been on a bit of a journey here, looking at the issues that are present in this cop around indigenous inclusion. What do you think we can say? I mean, clearly the Brazilian government wants to do a lot. They want to see indigenous participation. At the same time, they're running an intergovernmental process that they are somewhat hampered by the history. The inclusion can be of a certain character that probably satisfies some and not others. What are your overall impressions of the indigenous participation here?
Christiana Figueres: [00:35:20] You know, I go back to, uh, my metaphor of a construction site. I think the the voice of, uh, of indigenous peoples in these conversations is, so to speak, under construction. I think Brazil has been very courageous in being willing to break with tradition and give such a voice in so much space to indigenous peoples. And as we know, it is clearly not enough by Admission of, I think, even of the Brazil presidency, and certainly of indigenous peoples. But. But it is a strong beginning. Um, and most importantly, it's going to make it irreversible, no matter who takes the cop in years to come, they're not going to be able to shut out these voices, especially because the forestry, um, topic is taking more and more political importance. And just through that, even if it weren't a human rights issue, just because of that, indigenous voices will have to be at the table.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:36:31] It's interesting. I mean, I think one of the things that we have brought up many times on this podcast is that the the destiny of humanity, whether or not we're able to address the climate crisis, which depends so fundamentally on protecting nature, conserving standing forest is now absolutely intertwined with indigenous peoples, and indigenous peoples have suffered horribly over history at the hands of others colonizers. And now for that to be reversed, in a sense, or for now, for us to be in a situation where the destiny of indigenous people is completely connected to the destiny of all of us, because indigenous people are guardians of their land in a manner that has never been achieved by other types of communities. So it's on all of us to find pathways, to engage properly, to listen, to represent, to ensure that actually those rights are well reflected in all our legal structures and our negotiating documents. Because unless they are, we don't really have a chance.
Christiana Figueres: [00:37:33] The rights and the wisdom.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:37:35] And the wisdom.
Christiana Figueres: [00:37:37] And the wisdom.
Christiana Figueres: [00:37:38] Because that the wisdom of that connection of ourselves with the rest of nature is because we lost that. That's why we got into such trouble. So it is their right to be a voice, but also for us to have the humility of recognizing that we lost that wisdom.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:37:57] Yeah, absolutely. And I have to say, there's there's a deep emotional element to being here and seeing kind of the front line of indigenous communities defending their land, speaking to others who may be, in a worldly sense, have more power and authority, and just realizing how long that fight or that struggle for indigenous communities to have their rights and wisdom respected has been going on for centuries, and it's still manifesting. We in no way can deny the suffering that has gone, but that doesn't mean that we're not still responsible for doing what we can today.
Christiana Figueres: [00:38:32] Exactly.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:38:34] Okay. I think that covers off today's episode. We'll be back tomorrow with another conversation on Inside Cop. Please join us. Thanks.
Christiana Figueres: [00:38:43] Bye.
Christiana Figueres: [00:20:48] And you're now a student at Yale.
Helena Gualinga: [00:20:50] And now I'm a student at Yale. That's kind of what I'm up to now. Yeah.
Christiana Figueres: [00:20:55] Elena, we came here with the expectation that this would be a very different cup with respect to the presence of Indigenous and First Nations people, because of everything that we've been hearing from the Cop presidency, and we're sort of ground truthing that. How has that been expressed in the reality that we're seeing here at the Cop or not?
Helena Gualinga: [00:21:20] One of the most important things that this cop was Enhaced participation, which what I'm hearing from people inside is that they're not just being denied the floor, but also just entry to the negotiating spaces. So the Indigenous Peoples constituency, which is the indigenous peoples negotiating body at the UN, is being denied entry and they are let in upon insistence or, you know, like pulling the strings, but that shouldn't be the case. They should be respected as the autonomous governments that we are. And so the kind of narrative around this being the indigenous cop is, I guess it's sort of concerning because it is some sort of indigenous washing, almost of of the cop. And I think even just before getting here, I personally was really excited about seeing if indigenous peoples for the first time were going to have the floor, and especially as it is in our home in the Amazon rainforest. I mean, like what I've said for so many years is our territories, our lands, our rights are being negotiated elsewhere, and now it's come here to our home, basically. Are we going to be able to have a say? And what I'm hearing is that we are not. And it's really concerning and disappointing.
Christiana Figueres: [00:22:29] Is that what the protests were about?
Helena Gualinga: [00:22:31] What I'm hearing from them? I was I was just in a in a brief conversation with some people that participated yesterday, and it wasn't organized necessarily by us. The the general indigenous movement, rather by leaders who are being excluded from the official spaces. I mean, the access to badges to the blue zone is so incredibly restricted. We we are on indigenous land here, and even those indigenous leaders who are from these lands are not being included and let in and separately from the cop. I mean, oil drilling was just given a announced and given a green light here in para, which is something else that indigenous peoples from para are upset about and denouncing and beyond to.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:23:20] Um, you talked about like indigenous washing because there's been so much narrative up till this point that this would be the cop of the indigenous. Do you feel like there has been an outreach to indigenous communities to help co-create what's happened here? Because that's certainly the narrative that's being told.
Helena Gualinga: [00:23:36] I don't know, I am sure that there has been some efforts, I think, with just the fact that there is a ministry of indigenous peoples in Brazil. So much work is being done through that. And I think although that exists, I don't know if that's been enough. And Brazil is huge and Latin America is huge. And like there's so many people, it's really a challenge to make sure that everyone is included. However, the fact that people within the negotiating spaces, those that have the blue badge like the badges to the blue zones, that they are not being given the floor or able to participate, I think that is like what represents, Presents also how people are being treated outside.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:24:18] One of the really big things the government of Brazil has tried to focus the world's attention on. Here is around forest protection of standing forest. The tropical forest Forever facility. And and that's been one of the sources of momentum. But it's also something we've heard pretty mixed reports about in terms of the indigenous consultations and engagements, because this is all about protecting indigenous land. Is there anything that you would say about that, from the conversations you've had around how you feel that's been structured and whether it's been appropriate?
Helena Gualinga: [00:24:48] Indigenous people in Brazil have been calling for the demarcation of their lands for, you know, before this government, during this government, we heard cacique, one of the biggest, most respected chiefs in from the Brazilian Amazon, from the Kayapo people denouncing President Lula, um, which I think speaks a lot to kind of the expectations that were set. Um, and what's actually being met. Um, and, you know, their oil drilling happening, you know, mining expansion happening again. This is very limited to Brazil. And I can speak more to, to those things in Ecuador. But there's definitely a huge disappointment because there was so much that was promised and very little is being done. And especially when it comes to the land demarcations and securing indigenous people's rights in this country, which is like this constant battle of just maintaining what already is. And there's like Bill after Bill coming after indigenous peoples all the time.
Christiana Figueres: [00:25:43] So that's a domestic Brazil issue. It's not necessarily a Cop 30 issue or is it being demonstrated there?
Helena Gualinga: [00:25:50] I mean, the indigenous people's participation has been a Cop issue, a UNF triple C issue. Uh, and it's been something that we've advocated for for so long. I think there was an expectation that was set that this cop was going to be different, but it is business as usual. So there is the same issue that we've seen for the whatever, 30 years of Cop. And then there is these domestic issues with indigenous people's rights in Brazil and Ecuador and Colombia and Peru that we can all speak to. These issues kind of go hand in hand and excludes indigenous peoples from participating anywhere. I mean, we're not having a say in what happens to our lands back home or here, those who are from here. And then when it comes to kind of setting these global international frameworks at Cop and we're trying to do it that way, then we're being, you know, the door is shut in our face.
Christiana Figueres: [00:26:38] Just one more question. Elena. And I don't know whether you are, um, apprised of the fact that in the biological biology, in the biological convention at the CBD that just happened in Cali, Colombia, they adopted something that was very innovative and a long time coming, and that is they created what is called an UN, a subsidiary body, which is nothing other than a platform, but a very important platform to bring together. And the plot. This SB subsidiary body is dedicated to the rights and traditions of Indigenous and First Nation peoples. And I honestly somehow expected that something like that would happen in within the climate convention. I have been looking and I don't see any proposal to that. And I've been wondering why has that not been proposed, if it's possible for one of the conventions that came out from Rio? It ought to be possible for another one. Have you heard any any interest in something like that?
Helena Gualinga: [00:27:52] No, I'm not familiar with kind of how that is set up, but I haven't heard anything similar being proposed here or being, you know, curated for indigenous peoples to participate. No.
Christiana Figueres: [00:28:04] I'm going to start spilling the idea everywhere. Yeah.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:28:09] Starting here.
Christiana Figueres: [00:28:10] Starting here.
Christiana Figueres: [00:28:11] I think it's rather unfortunate that we have fallen into the simplistic thinking of assuming that when we use the word indigenous communities or First Nations peoples, that that that covers the gamut. It's a little bit like walking into the Amazon and using the name of one tree, and assuming that that represents the entire Amazon. So could you give us a flavor of the diversity that is under that?
Helena Gualinga: [00:28:42] Yeah, I love the the example with the tree. I think it really speaks to it. Yes. Indigenous peoples are so incredibly diverse and different, and I think there's a lot of shared values that brings us together. But again, we all have our own governing bodies and our own kind of governance structures and representation structures that we function through. Just in Ecuador. We are. I mean, my people are very, very, very small people, but we live and practice autonomy and sovereignty. And so does everyone else. And putting us all together in a box, I think, has been damaging or detrimental to that sovereignty and independence and not being able to see that there is so much diversity within indigenous communities, and especially when it comes to a place like Cop, I think it's been very easy to just check the box for an indigenous individual. Even myself, I am an indigenous individual. I'm not representing. I'm not representing my people even unless they have told me. Okay, go on the podcast and represent Sarayaku, which you know, that has happened a few times when they do. So I'm happy to do and it's the biggest honor. But if that doesn't happen, I'm representing my own individual. And I think at these spaces, it's very easy to just have the almost as indigenous peoples have been tokenized and erases completely the the diversity, not just within the Amazon, but within, you know, in Ecuador, there's indigenous people from the mountains or from the Andes, from the highlands that are so different to indigenous peoples from the Amazon. And erasing that diversity limits us and limits our participation.
Christiana Figueres: [00:30:21] And I think the challenge with that is, how do you honor and respect that diversity and have a representation that allows for all of those peoples to speak with a voice that represents all, without having millions of people at the table?
Helena Gualinga: [00:30:44] Exactly one step forward would be have the people that already are inside to have a seat at the table. I mean, if those who are today representing us with the limited representation that we have and they are not able to be at the table, be able to speak. I mean then we like that is that is the issue. And then we can work inwards and see okay, how do we organize better and how do we make sure that the participation is better represented. But we got to start with the very basic issues that we're seeing.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:31:18] And one of the things that we heard a lot about coming here was about consultations with indigenous to ensure that policies, maybe from Brazil, represented indigenous perspectives, particularly when it comes to forest policies. What does best practice look like in terms of that consultation? Because, as you said, the diversity there means you have to respect that and engage broadly. But are there ways to engage that do meet the necessity of of the broad conversation, despite how many options there are to engage?
Helena Gualinga: [00:31:49] Yeah, I mean, I think that one of the what is it called like sidelined pieces of free prior and informed consent is prior. So it needs to happen have prior to anything happening.
Christiana Figueres: [00:32:02] Like, it's sort of what it means.
Christiana Figueres: [00:32:03] Yeah. Prior.
Helena Gualinga: [00:32:04] Yeah, exactly. Um, and again, I can I can only speak to kind of where I come from with, with more detail. But in Sarayaku, for example, we have our own free prior and informed consent law. And it's like, if you guys want to talk to us, read this first. And there it says, like, we're not open to even engaging in a consultation process with an oil company or a mining company. Like we don't want to be consulted. And there's a clear, you know, like step by step. This is what Free and Prior looks like for us. And this is how our decision making looks like. This is how our culture ways of making decision looks like. And you kind of, you know, this is what this it's it's there and it's it's online. You know, you can look it up if you want to. So like so that's for my people. Um, again, I'm sure it's very different here and it's diverse. And then if you truly want to do it right, then you got to put in the effort and go and learn, right?
Christiana Figueres: [00:33:00] Thank you.
Helena Gualinga: [00:33:01] Of course. Thank you so much for having me. It's been such an honor.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:33:05] I mean, I have to say, I learned so much sitting there, talking to Helena, learning from her worldview and this moment and what's required. And we should explain to listeners that actually, there was a lot more to that conversation, specifically relating in particular to her home in Ecuador and what's happening there at the moment and the challenges they're facing. Will will put that out soon. But for now, Christiana, what what did you what did you take from that conversation?
Christiana Figueres: [00:33:27] I took such a moving commitment from her to remain so embedded and so rooted in the the belief system, the cultural values, the traditions, the challenges of her people. So respectful of that and to have such a respectful way of voicing it, of going out into the other part of the world, into the other cultures, to be a voice for her peoples. I just I just got such a sense of respect and love for her own family, her own legacy, her own community.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:34:15] Yeah. What it means to be rooted in a place is something that I think most of us struggle to really understand at a real depth, and it's palpable when you see in those conversations how it feels to come from those places. So amazing how she is. I mean, she's so brave. The elements of the of the interview that maybe weren't put out here just really detail what she's facing in her home country and how she is bringing that deep determination to, uh, to serve her, her community and help address the challenges. So, I mean, where does that leave us? Christiana, we've been on a bit of a journey here, looking at the issues that are present in this cop around indigenous inclusion. What do you think we can say? I mean, clearly the Brazilian government wants to do a lot. They want to see indigenous participation. At the same time, they're running an intergovernmental process that they are somewhat hampered by the history. The inclusion can be of a certain character that probably satisfies some and not others. What are your overall impressions of the indigenous participation here?
Christiana Figueres: [00:35:20] You know, I go back to, uh, my metaphor of a construction site. I think the the voice of, uh, of indigenous peoples in these conversations is, so to speak, under construction. I think Brazil has been very courageous in being willing to break with tradition and give such a voice in so much space to indigenous peoples. And as we know, it is clearly not enough by Admission of, I think, even of the Brazil presidency, and certainly of indigenous peoples. But. But it is a strong beginning. Um, and most importantly, it's going to make it irreversible, no matter who takes the cop in years to come, they're not going to be able to shut out these voices, especially because the forestry, um, topic is taking more and more political importance. And just through that, even if it weren't a human rights issue, just because of that, indigenous voices will have to be at the table.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:36:31] It's interesting. I mean, I think one of the things that we have brought up many times on this podcast is that the the destiny of humanity, whether or not we're able to address the climate crisis, which depends so fundamentally on protecting nature, conserving standing forest is now absolutely intertwined with indigenous peoples, and indigenous peoples have suffered horribly over history at the hands of others colonizers. And now for that to be reversed, in a sense, or for now, for us to be in a situation where the destiny of indigenous people is completely connected to the destiny of all of us, because indigenous people are guardians of their land in a manner that has never been achieved by other types of communities. So it's on all of us to find pathways, to engage properly, to listen, to represent, to ensure that actually those rights are well reflected in all our legal structures and our negotiating documents. Because unless they are, we don't really have a chance.
Christiana Figueres: [00:37:33] The rights and the wisdom.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:37:35] And the wisdom.
Christiana Figueres: [00:37:37] And the wisdom.
Christiana Figueres: [00:37:38] Because that the wisdom of that connection of ourselves with the rest of nature is because we lost that. That's why we got into such trouble. So it is their right to be a voice, but also for us to have the humility of recognizing that we lost that wisdom.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:37:57] Yeah, absolutely. And I have to say, there's there's a deep emotional element to being here and seeing kind of the front line of indigenous communities defending their land, speaking to others who may be, in a worldly sense, have more power and authority, and just realizing how long that fight or that struggle for indigenous communities to have their rights and wisdom respected has been going on for centuries, and it's still manifesting. We in no way can deny the suffering that has gone, but that doesn't mean that we're not still responsible for doing what we can today.
Christiana Figueres: [00:38:32] Exactly.
Tom Rivett-Carnac: [00:38:34] Okay. I think that covers off today's episode. We'll be back tomorrow with another conversation on Inside Cop. Please join us. Thanks.
Christiana Figueres: [00:38:43] Bye.
