315: Inside COP: The countdown to COP30 at New York Climate Week

Welcome to our new series Inside COP - your complete guide to COP30 in Belém, starting on the ground at New York Climate Week.

About this episode

How does COP deliver a pathway to dealing with the worsening climate crisis? That’s the big question as attention across the world turns to COP30 in Belém, Brazil, later this year.

Inside COP is your complete guide, unpacking the challenges, conversations and actions shaping the global response to climate change in 2025.

Christiana Figueres, Tom Rivett-Carnac, Paul Dickinson and new co-host Fiona McRaith take you on the road to Belém, starting on the ground at New York Climate Week where we hear from Simon Stiell, the Executive Secretary of the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) and Kara Hurst, Chief Sustainability Officer at Amazon. What needs to happen from here in this new era of climate action?

We speak to Ana Toni from the COP Presidency about expectations for the Nationally Determined Contributions (the climate action plans countries submit under the Paris Agreement) as well as what COP hopes to achieve, including their hopes for collaborative initiatives like the Mutirão.

Plus, our hosts address President Trump’s shocking comments on climate. Is this a major concern or is the climate community already moving forward regardless?

Learn more

•⁠ ⁠🎬 Re-watch the live event at Climate Week NYC
•⁠ ⁠🌿 Follow the official COP30 website
•⁠ ⁠🌅 Understand how COP30 can give rise to this new international era

Make sure you don’t miss any of our behind the scenes content. Follow us on socials:

LinkedIn @outrageoptimism

Instagram @outrageoptimism

And we want to hear from you! What do you want to hear more of in Inside COP? Get in touch with us via this form.

Producer: Ben Weaver-Hincks

Video Producer: Caitlin Hanrahan

Assistant Producer: Caillin McDaid

Assistant Producer: Eve Jones

Exec Producer: Ellie Clifford

Commissioning Editor: Sarah Thomas

With thanks to Groundswell and Global Optimism.

This is a Persephonica production for Global Optimism and is part of the Acast Creator Network.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Full Transcript

Transcript generated by AI. While we aim for accuracy, errors may still occur. Please refer to the episode’s audio for the definitive version

Tom : [00:00:03] Hello and welcome to Outrage and Optimism. I'm Tom Rivett-carnac.

Christiana : [00:00:05] I'm Christiana Figueres.

Paul : [00:00:07] I'm Paul Dickinson.

Tom : [00:00:08] And come on, fellas, your line.

Fiona McRaith: [00:00:11] And I'm Fiona McRaith.

Tom : [00:00:12] There you go. This week coming to you live from New York Climate Week. It is our first edition of Inside Cop. Thanks for being here. So, Paul Christiano, we are on the ground here in New York and we are missing you terribly. But we are very excited to be speaking to you now for this, our first ever episode of Inside Cop, our special partnership with the Cop presidency, bringing you insight and analysis on what's happening in the Road to Cop. It's great we finally launched it!

Christiana : [00:00:36] Yay! It is really so exciting! We've been thinking about this for a long time, and it is so exciting that our amazing team has actually pulled together all the necessary threads for us to be able to weave this together. So we're going to be doing Inside Cop from now until the end of Cop.

Paul : [00:00:57] How exciting with our special friend Fiona. You've joined us before so many times, and you're going to be part of this kind of perfect quartet delivering the what was it? Perfect preparation prevents, uh, delivers perfect performance inside cop sort of mega blast of the essential truth of the global climate movement from Belgium. And in the run up to. Is that right?

Fiona McRaith: [00:01:16] I couldn't have said it more perfectly myself, Paul.

Tom : [00:01:19] We've been here on the ground making progress in this direction already. We'll get into this in a second, because we actually did a live episode yesterday in front of 400 people. But before we get into that, I wonder if we should just address, I suppose we can call it the elephant in the room. I was in the UN this morning. Donald Trump gave his first address for the for six years when he spoke in front of the UN General Assembly. Now, I think we should give ourselves a maximum of three minutes on this because to be honest, it was such a ridiculous speech. I think it can almost be dismissed.

Paul : [00:01:46] Well, let's hear some of what he's actually saying. Listen.

Donald Trump: [00:01:49] Energy is another area where the United States is now thriving like never before. We're getting rid of the falsely named renewables, By the way. They're a joke. They don't work. The carbon footprint is a hoax made up by people with evil intentions. You know, it's interesting. In the United States, we have still radicalized environmentalists. And they want the factories to stop. Everything should stop. No more cows. We don't want cows anymore. I guess they want to kill all the cows. They want to do things that are just unbelievable.

Tom : [00:02:23] Cristiano, I'm sure you've seen it. What do you think?

Christiana : [00:02:26] I wouldn't even give him the credit about talking about climate change. He talked about his version of climate change that only exists in his head and in those who are supporting that myth and that that weird, warped reality. But, Tom, honestly, I was I just thought like, this is a temper tantrum. I have two daughters. One of them was really famous for temper tantrums between ages two and three, and her temper For tantrums were much more mature, and the arguments that she used during her tantrums were actually at least close to the truth. Neither of which I can say about this temper tantrum that he threw. It's really pretty pathetic. And you know, the fact that he takes, what, 57 minutes to deliver this temper tantrum just reminded me of Fidel Castro when he used to go to the UN and deliver similar tirades for almost an hour. Or I think once, even over an hour.

Tom : [00:03:33] More coherent, actually, if I remember his timing.

Christiana : [00:03:35] It's just really strange. It's just really, really odd.

Tom : [00:03:41] Yeah. I mean, Paul, what do you what do you think?

Paul : [00:03:43] Trump's got this hysterical way of talking? He said everything should stop. And this is just a very odd sentence. Everything should stop. Does he think everything should stop? He's specific. He says no more cows. We don't want cows anymore. How do you stop a cow? I mean, it's like. It's like a thing. I guess they want to kill all the cows. Donald, I don't want to kill all the cows. But I wouldn't mind if we just had slightly less crazy ways of talking about the primary national and global security threat facing the world. He says renewables don't work, and they're too expensive, but twice as much was invested in them last year as in fossil fuels. So either investors are crazy or he's lying and wrong. I don't think this Trump thing can last for that much longer. Jimmy Kimmel is back on television. Everyone dropped their Disney subscriptions. I think he's these crazy speeches and all these mad things he's doing. It's this giant Jenga tower, right? And it's going to fall down. And Christiana, I'm reminded about what you said, and that is that when this administration falls under its own contradictions and idiocy, then so does the sort of weird, aggressive super authority of the fossil fuel industry. I mean, it's kind of really upsetting to be lectured by Exxon about how we need to have more fossil fuels dug up around the world, and I think that we're hopefully we're seeing things unravel. But is that how it felt when you were actually in the room watching it? Tom?

Tom : [00:05:04] Well, I should be clear. I wasn't in the room. I was in the UN this morning, but I wasn't in the General Assembly hall when he.

Paul : [00:05:08] Would do something else, he was changing the coffee machine. You know.

Tom : [00:05:11] I didn't, I didn't, I didn't.

Christiana : [00:05:13] Wait wait wait wait wait. I have a question for both of you. I had friends who reported to me that there was a lot of laughter in the room. Was the laughter with him or at him?

Tom : [00:05:23] Uh, my impression again, I wasn't in the room, but my impression was it was at him. I mean, I think that that.

Christiana : [00:05:29] Was so sad.

Tom : [00:05:29] It's very sad.

Christiana : [00:05:30] Fi, what do you think?

Fiona McRaith: [00:05:31] I would say yes. It was nervous chuckling, but there were some jokes that he made that that received laughter with the joke. And I don't even want to say that was surprising. I guess nothing that Trump said I found unexpected or surprising. I think I went to an event right after talking about disobedient leadership and what that means. And it was very interesting. People are expecting this from the president of the United States and factoring it in already to the way in which business is being done. That is not to say that's good or bad. It's hugely disappointing to me, and I'm not sure if there was that much. While it was upsetting to hear and, you know, we could parse through basically every single sentence that he said and be incredibly frustrated or angry about it. You knew the storm was coming.

Christiana : [00:06:24] Yeah. I would go even farther as a question that I would love you and Tom to react to. My sense is that not only is it not pausing or stopping everything, it's actually creating the opposite reaction. So in physics, we know that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. My sense is that we are beginning to see with the fact that Climate Week is the largest Climate week ever. We're beginning to see not just an equal, but a superior and opposite reaction to the lunacy in the white House.

Tom : [00:06:58] I would definitely agree with you, Christiane. I mean, I think that actually what we've seen now is a kind of, you know, maybe before there was a bit of an overemphasis on communications in the climate movement of, you know, companies announcing their commitments and what they're going to do and their intentions. I think that maybe now what we've seen, and this was evidenced to me this morning in a few conversations I had with senior people from a US corporations, is that they're now just getting on with it. They're now just like doubling down, doing the work, moving forward. And all this nonsense is just a whole bunch of sort of noise in the background that doesn't signify anything. Now, should we now move back to cop 30? Yeah.

Christiana : [00:07:30] Let's move back to the adult table. Can we.

Tom : [00:07:32] Let's move back to the adult.

Paul : [00:07:34] Table. Despite whatever Trump is saying, we need to have a conversation about navigating the inevitable. So, Tom, please tell us about that.

Tom : [00:07:41] Yes. So it's now Tuesday. Tomorrow there will be a nationally determined commitment summit, which will happen at the UN. I'll be there. The speakers are being opened by China, so we're expecting to see their NDC. We'll provide some comments afterwards in terms of what we see, but I think what we can be pretty clear about and Anna Tony, who we spoke to yesterday, also referenced this. Those commitments will not get us down to 1.5 degrees. So I think one of the things we need to really be clear about is that for Cop to deliver a pathway for us to deal with the climate crisis, we need to break out of the previous model of thinking governments will just make commitments and save us. This is going to be much more of an all of society, everyone, everywhere approach where yes, we see government commitments and they're important, but we see real implementation evidence, real solutions, pathways from all kinds of stakeholders. And that's the momentum we're already seeing. So we'll provide some analysis on the NDCs. But I think that's my takeaway from this, this climate week so far in the pathway to Cop is the solutions are unfolding and we're making progress.

Christiana : [00:08:37] The way I've been thinking about it is, quite simplistically, every movement forward has both a push and a pull. And ten years ago when we adopted the Paris Agreement, it was the national governments that were the pull force for decarbonisation, which they had to be because they had to agree on a legally binding decarbonisation pathway toward net zero by 2050. And Tom and Paul, you will all remember and fee as well, that we organized a surround sound movement that was basically exercising the push effect that, you know, all these stakeholders really nudging and encouraging governments to be ambitious in what they agreed. So pull of governments, push of all other stakeholders. Today, ten years later, that relationship has totally inverted. Today, the pull is coming from the private sector, from the finance sector, from subnational, from everyone else other than national governments, national governments. It doesn't mean that they are they're irrelevant. It means they are now in the push. They are not pulling forward because honestly, they don't have the implementation capacity that the other stakeholders do. And we are about implementation now. So implementation is now being pulled by all of their stakeholders. And national governments continue to play a role obviously, but very much in the push version. They are continuing to push their NDCs, not as as greatly as we would love to, but their role and the impact that they have on both the speed and scale of implementation is very, very different to the role that they had ten years ago.

Tom : [00:10:27] And Christiana, the only thing I would add to that from the conversations that I have had with Brazilian colleagues, and we'll hear from Antonio in a minute on our conversation with her, is that that's true of some governments. And actually the global South is now where the leadership is. And global South countries are in many cases, identifying the opportunities, putting the policies in place and driving forward.

Christiana : [00:10:45] Ah, but Tom, Tom, here's the difference. Yes, at a domestic level, that's the difference.

Tom : [00:10:52] Domestic level.

Christiana : [00:10:53] The pull from governments ten years ago came from an international multilateral level, and that was necessary. But now those governments that are working on the domestic level about domestic regulation, domestic measures, that's at the domestic level, that is very different to what we had ten years ago.

Paul : [00:11:12] There are huge changes. We have pretty much 25% of cars being purchased or electric. We've got you know, it was ever pointed out that in five days, the sun delivers as much energy as all fossil fuels combined. You know, the action agenda when when nations collaborate or corporations or investors collaborate with nations or whatever, that's all great stuff. And the Brazilians have given it that wonderful name, the era where everyone comes together and this is actually their culture. I think the reason we have culture wars is because we don't have a culture. Now The culture is actually yeah, we're going to get together and we're going to change the energy system to protect our kids. It's a great, exciting prospect for the world.

Christiana : [00:11:49] So this is very, very exciting moment in which we're beginning to see that we're no longer in the world of climate diplomacy writ large like we had in Paris. We're now into the world of climate economics. Yeah, emerging and developing in countries. They hold 70% of the world's solar and wind resources and 50% of the critical minerals for the energy transition go to developing countries.

Tom : [00:12:21] Well, and these are the stories that we need to unlock. Christiana, I think in the coming weeks and months through to the cop as part of this Inside Cop series, because I think now, you know, as you said, climate diplomacy is a totally different game now. It's about climate being integrated into economics, about countries putting national plans, about a shift of emphasis from historical leadership to new leadership. And I think what we would like to do in our regular episodes in the coming weeks, as well as the daily episodes we're super excited to get into at Cop, is to tell this story of momentum and the millions of places that it's now coming from. We need to all get out of our heads. This is not about sitting back and waiting for either countries or the UN to come forward with a plan that is going to save the world from this dangerous risk. It's about all of us coming together to create the momentum that makes that possible. And that's the story that we want to tell in the coming weeks.

Christiana : [00:13:07] Absolutely.

Paul : [00:13:08] Let's tell the story.

Christiana : [00:13:09] Okay, so Tom and fi, given the fact that you're in New York and Paul and I are not, we're going to hand over to you for the rest of the show.

Tom : [00:13:16] All right. Well, it's been lovely to see you. We'll see you soon.

Paul : [00:13:18] Bye.

Tom : [00:13:20] Sophie, this is the end of day 365 of climbing week three.

Fiona McRaith: [00:13:27] I have aged a year in just three days.

Tom : [00:13:29] I do feel older. I think I can definitely tell I'm getting older. I'm walking like 65,000 steps a day. I mean, we're not here to complain.

Fiona McRaith: [00:13:35] Age is a mindset, Tom.

Tom : [00:13:37] It's been it's been an interesting few days. I mean, what have you been doing? Give me a snapshot of some of the some of the things to give people a sense of maybe what it's like coming to New York Climate Week and how we try and create an impact.

Fiona McRaith: [00:13:47] Yeah, I know we both had events that started on Sunday. We're recording this on Tuesday, and I think listeners may hear this on Thursday. So we will have aged a whole nother year.

Fiona McRaith: [00:13:56] By the time you hear this.

Tom: [00:13:58] Another 300 miles.

Fiona McRaith: [00:14:00] You know, I've actually found myself quite shocked. And I know this was addressed last week on the podcast as well, but two weeks ago, I would have been very surprised by how much how saturated this is, how many people are here, the energy, the momentum feels palpable in a way that it always has.

Tom: [00:14:17] And very practical solutions are very it's my sense.

Fiona McRaith: [00:14:20] I think that is the probably the biggest shift. There's a real emphasis on trying to double click, focus on what is happening, what is possible. But I was feeling really uninspired and in a bit of a valley of pessimism and before this, like even on my flight over, and I've been pleasantly surprised that I'm feeling invigorated. I'm feeling inspired. And I think sometimes these in-person moments do so much for the spirit. Yeah. That's true. You see all of these brilliant people coming together, working towards big, audacious goals, you know, climate pledge companies over 600 now working towards net zero by 2040. Um, some great speeches from figures. But as you said, it goes beyond the speeches. And I think that's the cool part.

Tom : [00:15:06] Yeah, yeah, I do, I have to say, I know what you're talking about, and I feel for people who are maybe feeling anxious about climate, and they don't get to see everybody coming together and sharing the evidence of the implementation of the momentum. That's been various different things I've done this week in different events. There was there's this new event called the gala, which happened on Sunday, which is like, you know, almost like an answer to the Met Gala to raise money for nature. So it was raising money for Conservation International, and it was a big deal. It was one of the piers over on the east side of the city, you know, 350 people. It was done up beautifully. And, you know, there might be some people who are skeptical about that sort of thing, but it raised a lot of money for nature, and it had interesting people who were there. I mean, there was, um, you know, in a name drop a few people now. So people like Harrison Ford were there. Billie Eilish, she came up and introduced herself to me. You know what I said to her?

Fiona McRaith: [00:15:51] I know your mom.

Tom : [00:15:52] I'm a big fan of your mom.

Fiona McRaith: [00:15:53] I know Maggie is amazing.

Fiona McRaith: [00:15:56] Maggie, you should listen to that episode.

Tom : [00:15:57] It definitely marks me in terms of generation, but she was great, you know? I mean, Billie Eilish showing up and then honoring Sylvia Earle, who was sitting there across the table, 95 years old, you know, still diving. It was really something. And it really spoke to, like, the level of inspiration that some of these leaders have managed to engender in people.

Fiona McRaith: [00:16:15] Yeah, this is not necessarily new, but it feels at the surface in a way that maybe it hasn't been for me at least, that there's this deep recognition that we will get there together through collaboration, humility and partnership. Load More

Tom : [00:16:30] Yeah. So this morning I was at a breakfast organized by watershed, you know, the carbon accounting company. I mean, you'd think this was, like, kind of really nerdy stuff. Watershed is a company that supports corporations to calculate their carbon footprints and their impacts. And you would think that in this new regime where Trump is there, it would have created such a chilling effect. But it was absolutely packed at a senior level with all these companies and companies were saying, you know what, we haven't slowed down. We're doubling down. We're going you may not be hearing quite as much from us. That's quite, quite a common theme is actually what people have said to me is they feel like the climate movement overindexed on press releases and announcements and under index on just getting on with the job. Totally. And from some of these people, I'm actually hearing a little bit of relief that they're not being asked to like, constantly prepare statements. They're just getting on and doing the work. Yeah, you see that in the pledge as well?

Fiona McRaith: [00:17:17] Of course. Absolutely.

Fiona McRaith: [00:17:18] It reminds me of in sports, when you have an off season, you have to work really, really hard. But you're not talking about it. You're not playing games. It's not being broadcast. There's there's nothing to show for it. But that becomes so apparent once you get back into the showcasing of it, the hard work really becomes apparent.

Tom : [00:17:35] And so one of the things we did was we did this this live podcast, mission 2025. You and I launched this together 18 months ago. References that on the stage. And it was fun, right? I mean, 3 or 400 people in the room. I think the first voice that listeners will hear will be yours. Anything you want to say about it before we drop it in?

Fiona McRaith: [00:17:50] Hello, and.

Fiona McRaith: [00:17:51] Welcome to New York. All right.

Tom : [00:17:55] So I think definitely listeners will now hear from Simon Steele, the executive secretary of the UN Climate Convention, and also from Kara Hearst, our good friend, who is the VP of sustainability and the CSO chief sustainability officer of Amazon. Let's go.

Speaker8: [00:18:08] To it.

Speaker9: [00:18:10] All right. All right. Hello. Welcome. It is so great to be here with you today. My name is Fiona McGrath. I work at Global Optimism. It is a distinct pleasure to welcome you to New York, to Climate Week, to Mission 2025 event. Mission 2025. Tom and I actually had the distinct pleasure of being a part of the launch event a couple of years ago in London, and we know that 2025 is a big year. We're halfway through what we're calling the decisive decade in climate, where ten years since Paris, and there's a big milestone coming up, Cop 30 on that journey. We all know this. And what are we looking for from Cop? We're looking for clarity. We're looking for compensation, and we're looking for collaboration. Tom, over to you. Great.

Tom : [00:18:54] Not only are we here to talk about mission 2025, but also this is a live taping of our podcast, Outrage and Optimism. And this year we are doing something we've not done before. And you may have heard about this, if you've been listening to the podcast, which is we are doing a special series in partnership with the Cop presidency called Inside Cop, where we're going to be going deep into everything over the next couple of months as the world tries to get back on track. I would like to just tell you why we're doing that, because why would you do something like that at this moment? This process is not exactly winning any popularity contests. It's slow. It's frustrating. We've had 30 cops. I know Simon sitting in the front row. We've had 30 cops, and we're not making progress. Why would we double down on this? Well, I would like to propose to you a counterintuitive thought, which is this is the best moment for the climate negotiations in at least the last ten years. It's taken a while to get to this point where we know that what is needed to get back on track is going to be transformational change in the way we bring the process back into line with the real economy. And in the real economy, astonishing things are happening. We have amazing leadership in Simon in the presidency of Brazil. This is going to be a great few months and we're very excited about it. So we'll get to that in a minute. For the next conversation, we're going to hear about business. And I would like to welcome my good friend, Chief Sustainability Officer, VP of Sustainability of Amazon, Cara Hirst. Great. So this is an interesting context we're all operating in. Just give us a snapshot of what Amazon's doing in this context.

Kara Hirst: [00:20:27] Great. Well, we are doing many things. And actually this is a great connected conversation because one of the things that we're doing, um, is we are changing our operations. So that's first and foremost, um, we are decarbonizing fast. We've committed to being net zero on our global operations by 2040, with the Climate Pledge that we worked with you and Christiana. And now I want to say we're announcing this week we're up to 600 signatories on that. So we're working through our supply chains. We're working with our customers, we're working with our partners, all of our suppliers, and each and every industry that we're in across Amazon, which is many industries, and trying to send those big demand signals.

Tom : [00:21:04] Are you seeing continued enthusiasm and determination to move forward?

Kara Hirst: [00:21:08] I think that's one of the myths I want to bust. I mean, a lot of the times people are saying, you know, we're seeing a retrenchment. We saw another hundred companies join the pledge this year. So we're continuing to see momentum. We're continuing to see it across geography. We're continuing to see it across industry. That is a hefty commitment to right now commit to decarbonizing and being net zero carbon by 2040? We're seeing across many, many industries. We're seeing it in industries where we've had trouble getting traction before. We had over 30 companies in the fashion industry join. But it's it's really about how do we take each one of these things, whether it's energy or it's materials or it's transportation. And we think about these big joint solutions together. So these projects are not about just making the commitment, but saying, what sector are you in? What demand signals can you send and how do we work together?

Tom : [00:21:57] Okay. That's so encouraging, Kara, thank you so much. That and we're now going to hear, uh, if he's willing, uh, the man famously the most difficult job on the planet, the executive secretary of the UNF, triple C, Simon Steel.

Simon Steele: [00:22:13] Okay. Thank you, Tom. And it's, uh, it's great to be here this afternoon. So, friends, people often ask me what needs to happen from here. In truth, many things. But let me boil it down. This new era of climate action must be about bringing our process closer to the real economy, accelerating implementation and spreading the colossal benefits of climate action to billions more people. Connecting the cabinet rooms closer to the boardrooms, to the living rooms is how we supercharge climate action and get this job done. No easy task, but together we can build an extraordinary foundation. Because if we look past the noise, the facts show a world aligning with the Paris Agreement. And then it's all eyes on cop 30. What must it do? It must respond to the state of the NDCs to the roadmap to $1.3 trillion annually of accessible finance, deployable at speed and scale to progress made and where acceleration is most needed, it must show climate. Multilateralism continues to deliver with strong outcomes across all negotiations. It must spur faster and wider implementation across all sectors and economies, especially those not yet pricing in climate risks and opportunities. And it must leave no one behind. That means delivering for the most vulnerable in all regions, especially emerging and developing countries. This is the story of the new economy rising, and this Cop 30 podcast series by outrage and optimism is a great chance to tell it to more people around the world. Every cop builds on the last. That is how we forge progress and deliver real results. Right now we need to reaffirm sending a stronger, unmistakable signal. The world is still rock solid behind Paris and fully on board for climate cooperation. Because it works. And together we will make it work faster, not only at Cop, but here in New York, at the G20, at Pre-cop, and at every forum. So let's keep it up and let's step it up. Humanity cannot afford to let it stumble. Let's recognize, reaffirm. Respond. This is the path to through and beyond. Ond billing. I thank you.

Tom: [00:25:24] Amazing. Thank you. Thank you all for being here. Please subscribe to the podcast. See you soon.

Tom : [00:25:32] So we were on stage together doing a podcast yesterday. You know, we've done a few of these together and there's been quite a number now of like global optimism, outrage and optimism. Live events. How did the energy feel to you in the room?

Fiona McRaith: [00:25:44] Wrapped I think folks were so engaged. We heard so many different perspectives, representatives talking about different sectors of societies that boardroom from business. Kara Hurst, we heard from the Cabinet Rooms, multiple perspectives on government and what they're doing. Also, the living rooms. Lindsay Levin spoke about people and examples, and I think we had that mix in the audience room was full, um, super engaged. It's rooms like that that actually make the job so much more fun. You're kind of playing with the energy of the audience. So it was for me, quite energizing.

Tom : [00:26:18] And always nice to to speak in a room where you can't get anyone else because it's so ram. So that's quite fun. Yeah, and I agree with you. I mean, someone's commented to me afterwards that actually, and the listeners won't hear all of this, but Aruna Ghosh spoke about the speed at which Southeast Asia and other emerging economies are just driving forward with renewable energy. We then heard, as you say, from Lindsey Levin, about citizens and how they're engaging. Adam met former guest on the podcast and then Kara. So it was a great spread of different points of view that I think enabled us to really get our arms around the whole of society, whole of economy approach that's going to be needed to deliver the next breakthroughs.

Fiona McRaith: [00:26:55] Exactly.

Tom : [00:26:56] And I think that all of those different perspectives were really wrapped together as part of Simon's speech, because, I mean, Simon, such a difficult point of view for him to take at this moment, knowing that the US is throwing all of these rocks at the UN process. But I thought what he did really well was he threaded the challenge of the moment with the opportunity of a broader approach where everyone is involved in this collective effort. Which of course brings us back to the road to Cop 30. And I think many of those issues are going to be what determines success.

Fiona McRaith: [00:27:25] Absolutely. I mean, I think it's not a simple time. And Simon acknowledged that, I think with great pragmatism and realism, without letting go of the responsibility and duty that the Secretariat has. And I found his clarity refreshing. I know that sometimes politicians are politicians, but it's kind of nice to just have like a clear yeah, we've heard some not so clear speeches ramble on, and you can't really follow the point from that. We've talked about earlier in this episode. So I found that really poignant, actually. And then I think he started to reflect on what we've already said about the new economy rising. Like it's not just going to be the negotiations. It's not just the UNF triple C, it's what's happening all around in Rio and Sao Paulo, in Belem around Cop 30. It's not just one part of it. It's all of it. And I thought, Simon, Simon threaded that needle very well.

Tom : [00:28:28] Yeah. I was chatting to him backstage beforehand with Ed Miliband, who was also there. And what was interesting in the conversation between them is neither of them were dismissing the importance of this international process and what we're going to track through to Cop 30, but it was also clear that from from them, the energy was around implementation momentum and getting stuff done. So right after this event, which of course took place on the Monday of Climate Week, I think you had to go off and do something else. But I rushed across town to go and see Ana Toni, former guest on the podcast, CEO of Cop 30, to have a conversation with her about how she's seeing the week. It was one of those amazing Climate Week moments that are so frustrating, where you walk all the way across town, you have to go through several barriers of security. We then weren't registered in the room we were supposed to go into, so we didn't go in there. We eventually found a room in a different hotel two blocks away. So that was the introduction to this. But Anna's just always got such amazing energy. And, you know, we walked around and we chatted about the week. And then when we sat down, she really went deep into the challenges and the opportunities and what she feels is now needed in this critical week. So of course, we're now recording this on Wednesday morning. This afternoon I'll see her again in the UN for the Secretary General's Nationally Determined Commitment Summit. So we'll see what happened there. But this recording is a broader perspective on what is now needed that was taken before we really know government direction. Anna is so good to see you.

Ana Toni: [00:29:50] Yeah. Really nice to see you, Tom.

Tom : [00:29:52] Beginning of Climate Week. I'm sure you feel like you've had about three weeks here already.

Ana Toni: [00:29:55] Yes, exactly. That's the feeling.

Tom : [00:29:57] So I want to ask you the first question every time we begin. How many days left?

Ana Toni: [00:30:01] Oh, now, 48 days to the cop.

Tom : [00:30:04] 48 days to the cop. So under 50 days. So this is getting serious now we're getting close.

Ana Toni: [00:30:08] Yeah. Now it's just a sprint. And you were there.

Tom : [00:30:11] Okay, so tomorrow speeches continue in the UN. We have talked before or your president Lula recently put out an op ed where he said that bilateral relationships between Brazil and the US were a historic low. What's that going to do to the momentum here when he arrives?

Ana Toni: [00:30:26] Tomorrow will be a big day because the heads of states are speaking at the UN Assembly, and there are so many topics there. Climate. Definitely President Lula. Normally Brazil always open the General Assembly. Us always come the second. So be quite interesting to see that dynamic there. But I think will be many topics. Definitely the topic of multilateralism will come. This is a key topic also for our Cop. Definitely the topic of climate, but I expected other topics like trade will come up peace. We can see democratization issues. We know there was meetings today about democratization and UN reform is obviously also on the table. So I think tomorrow we'll expect that to have a broader picture of the topics and how climate within the geopolitics will will be in the leader's voice and in the leader's statement.

Tom : [00:31:24] But presumably, what you're looking out for and what you hope is that this will begin to build the political momentum towards the Cop. But from the government side, these next few days, I'm guessing are going to be critical for getting us moving in the right direction.

Ana Toni: [00:31:38] Absolutely. So today we started with the solutions dialogue really important with heads of states and ministers. Tomorrow we will see the general statements of leaders and to see how much climate is under those statements and the expectations for Cop. But let us remember on Wednesday we will have a round table about NDCs. It's the big summit that Guterres and President Lula has called heads of states to talk specifically about the NDC and the expectations of obviously of all of us about NDC. So I think the big Climate Day will be on Wednesday, when we hopefully will hear many countries all discussing when they're going to be communicating their targets.

Tom : [00:32:25] It's difficult at this point to know what to expect, but where do you have any sense at the moment of where we'll be at the end of this week in terms of NDCs?

Ana Toni: [00:32:32] I'm expecting also that we will be able to talk in this intersection between NDCs and the economic growth model that we are all pursuing. So climate positive growth, not just NDCs as a niche that you have to do because you know, you have a responsibility and an obligation under the Paris Agreement, but much more that the NDCs are becoming a planning tool for a climate positive growth.

Tom : [00:33:04] And one of the things that I've noticed in what you talk about to me and publicly is you are really focusing on the holistic approach that all the actors, the countries, their economic plans, all these other stakeholders. And yet what will probably happen is some journalists will judge the success of this week just on what is in the national statements from countries that comes out on Wednesday, which is a very reductionist way. And it's very different to how you're trying to get everybody to think about this. So how should we really judge this week?

Ana Toni: [00:33:35] I mean, the indices will be a big story for all the journalists for obvious reasons. But I think, as you said, I think we need to judge this week. Yes, through the length of the indices because the indices are late. This is an obligation that countries have every five years to update the indices. So definitely that will be the story. But I think the second story that I wish that we could also talk about are the solutions that our countries are bringing Ringing because we will have ten roundtables and dialogues for solutions. And we had today for it was just amazing. The debate. You can see that countries are coming up with solutions, that there are solutions that can be scaled, and normally that doesn't get you the news. And many of those solutions come from the South. So we could see countries from Africa, from Latin America, from Asia showing what they are already doing on adaptation, on finance, on digital platforms. So hopefully the news will be also that there are solutions and we just need to scale them. Yeah.

Tom : [00:34:42] So we were talking a few minutes ago about the fact that this week in New York is so consequential for the future of the world with NDCs. Right. This is the last round of NDCs that can get us back on track to 1.5. We're sitting here. It's Wednesday that all the heads of state will be giving their statements, and I have not seen any protesters on the street. I've not seen any activists calling for change, either here or in capitals around the world. Why not? What's happening?

Ana Toni: [00:35:10] Good question. I wish I knew the answer, but you being here to know New York climate weeks before UN assemblies before and there was so much protest. We have been part of those protests.

Tom : [00:35:23] And they're so useful. They're so necessary. Yeah.

Ana Toni: [00:35:25] And they made us moved. Yeah. Going forward. But yes, you are absolutely right. We haven't seen those protests anymore, especially in countries that we used to see, be it in Europe, for example, here in the US. And somehow I'm not sure perhaps we civil society now protesting about something else. Yeah. But we know that on climate change, without the pressure from civil society, from indigenous peoples, from workers, from women's groups and youth especially. The agenda doesn't go forward as fast as we need. So perhaps they were waiting all of them to protest in Berlin. Oh, I hope not, I hope not. But let us see. But because I think it would be much more effective if we had seen a lot of protests also here and also in.

Tom : [00:36:21] Capitals.

Ana Toni: [00:36:21] In capitals, when we talk about NDCs. Yeah. I mean, heads of states are coming here and we'll talk about their NDCs. But if there has not been protests and in capitals, the NDCs that are going to be announcing here is probably less ambitious than it would be if we had much more movement from civil society.

Tom : [00:36:43] So that's something that would genuinely make a difference in the next few months, right? 48 days. Actually, it's not too late for pressure to be put in capitals on countries to get their NDCs in line. I can say that you can't say that, but I can say that in the.

Ana Toni: [00:36:59] You said it. I didn't.

Tom : [00:37:03] So, Anna, you've been moving all around the world trying to get everybody moving towards the outcomes that we need. Give us a snapshot of what you've been up to in the last few months.

Ana Toni: [00:37:12] It's really, really interesting because yes, both myself as well as Andre Correa do Lago, the president of Cop 30, we've been traveling really a lot. And it's quite interesting because first, what I saw a lot of movement happening in developing countries sitting with the private sector, with civil society. You see there is a lot of energy there. Also, when I was in the London Climate Week, you feel there is a lot of movement happening in society. The transition has started. But then when you talk about how the negotiation will be and which positions can we take, then it's much harder. It is as if real life is more exciting than obviously the negotiation and how can we achieve new leapfrogging the negotiation at the same time? This world, as I just mentioned, climate positive growth seems to be the new world that many countries, especially in the South. I was really amazed. In China, in India and in Africa, we said a lot with the private sector and they are bringing new solutions. So I felt a lot of good energy implementation is the right word for the Cop 30, because the implementation is happening in many countries in the South. I felt less energy in Europe and here in the US, but the responsibility of the US and Europe is not going to be substituted by the energy from the south. We need both. Yeah. So I think it was interesting to see that lack of energy from when I travel within Europe as well as here in the US.

Tom : [00:39:01] And so that that sort of entrepreneurial approach that I've also witnessed in the last year in Brazil, in India, in other places, looking for solutions, investing, taking risks, you're right. It's so different then from the state of the negotiations. And we have these two different worlds that in a way have been moving apart between the negotiations and the real world. And part of the task now is to bring them back together.

Ana Toni: [00:39:25] Yeah. I mean, but we have spent, you know, on the Paris Agreement, negotiating for ten years. That was the focus. And fortunately, we closed the rule book in Cop 29. Obviously, there are many important negotiations that we have in Cop 30, and that needs to continue in the next Cop. But most of what we needed to negotiate has been negotiated. So now we need to start a new decade and is a decade of speeding up, accelerating and scaling implementation. I think we have the the general direction, we have the global stocktake. We know where we need to go now. We need to talk to the implementers and bring them closer to the cops. And those are subnational governments, civil society and definitely private sector. And I feel also that they really wanted to now scale implementation, and they wanted to look at governments and say what we needed you to now negotiated to help us to implement it.

Tom : [00:40:34] And so I think that's an amazing vision. And with that, we need everybody to really understand what a cop is, because everyone has in their head an idea of what a cop is. And it's the old model, and we need them to to remove that model and have a new vision of what a cop is, which is about implementation Activities. It's not about a final text, and whether or not that text saves the world or doesn't save the world.

Ana Toni: [00:40:57] Absolutely. And I think that's the challenge for cop 30 is to show that, yes, negotiation is still very important. But beyond negotiation, there is a lot happening. Yeah. What are the solutions that we all discussed at Cop that have been scaled or can have the potential to scale? What do they need? It would be much more pragmatic so to say.

Tom : [00:41:20] And would fit the challenge of today.

Ana Toni: [00:41:22] Yeah. Yeah. And also to translate, I think, for real people on the street, because people may not know about cops, but their lives have been shaped by cops. Yeah. So now which car do they use if it's an electric car or, um, a car run by ethanol or not? That only came about because of cop.

Tom : [00:41:47] Interesting.

Ana Toni: [00:41:47] No. Now that we're discussing supply chains that are deforestation free. That came because of Cop. So I think people don't realize how much cops have influenced influenced the life of like real people. Everybody in their choices every day. So I think hopefully cop 30 will also be a moment for us to do some of that translation. For example, on with doing a big campaign, the big Round Beat the heat. There are summers that in Rio that we got to 60 degrees, for example, and we need to translate what that now very hot summer has to do with cops, right? People just see now us and negotiators flying from one country to another to normally a beautiful like Paris or Glasgow or Dubai.

Tom : [00:42:40] And they don't talk Glasgow up too much. Yeah.

Ana Toni: [00:42:44] But they just come out from those big meetings. But we are not translating to real people and I think hopefully cop 30 with this call for Moucheron. We wanted to make sure that people understand that first they are part of Cop, even if they don't travel to a cop or go to Berlin. The actions that they do in their own city makes a big difference, and the choices they now have is related to to a cop.

Tom : [00:43:09] Yeah, that connection is so important, and it's that sense of agency and participation changes, a feeling of being separate and disconnected to a feeling of participation.

Ana Toni: [00:43:20] Yeah. Or to feel that the only way to participate is going to the meeting, not realizing that most of the choices need to take place beforehand. Yeah, beforehand. And at the city level, maybe at the state level, there are different. Like a teacher can do a lot. Obviously within that school a mayor can do amazing things. So there are different responsibilities there, but all of us have responsibilities and all of us can be part of the solution. And we keep saying, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. So it's time for everybody to feel empowered to to be part of the solution.

Tom : [00:44:02] Love that. So, Anna, I'd love to ask you, many people listening may have others in their lives who don't understand cops. How would you advise somebody who is listening? How would they explain what's going to happen in Belen to one of their friends or family members?

Ana Toni: [00:44:17] Oh, that's a hard question, because I think the way to explain is, first, I think everybody knows, but it's always good to to explain that we can only solve the climate challenge together. Mm. Because if I polluted in Brazil or if you polluted in Britain, no. Everybody is going to feel carbon molecules do not have passports or does not ask for permission to come to another country. Everybody will suffer from climate change. So I think I would explain this is a place where people come together to find common solutions to solve not only my problem, but a common problem that we, all of us have. And that common problem is on our day to day life that we feel again. How hot it is if the piece of meat that I buy in the supermarket is with deforestation, free or not, right? I think that's what we are going to be discussing at Cop.

Tom : [00:45:23] Great. Love that.

Ana Toni: [00:45:24] How would you explain a cop?

Tom : [00:45:26] Well, I think I would explain it as shared problems need an arena in which we can try and deal with them together. And unless we have that space, we don't have a chance.

Ana Toni: [00:45:39] That's it. Is that table a global table?

Tom : [00:45:41] It's really hard, and it might be frustrating. Collaboration is always frustrating, but unless we can do that and get around that table and actually all come together and identify the problem, agree on what it is and make a plan, we've got no chance.

Ana Toni: [00:45:53] And it's a table that you have like huge countries like Brazil or India or China or the US or the US. No, we don't have the US, we don't have the US. But then you have small islands that are really vulnerable. So everybody comes from a different perspective. And as you said, sometimes it gets really, really frustrating.

Tom : [00:46:13] That's why I get so emotional because people have their voice that they can then bring. And actually my family would often ask me what it's like in the negotiations. And I would say it's simultaneously the most boring and the most exciting thing I've ever seen.

Ana Toni: [00:46:24] And what I just really hope for, cop 30, is that we can sit together around that table and don't play tactics among ourselves, because when we play tactics like you give me this, I give you that very transactional. We are playing with people's lives, right? We are playing with the future of the next generation. So I hope negotiators will. And I think the ethical global stocktake that Cop 30 is being promoting with Minister Marina Silva is reminding us that before you are negotiator, before you are a British negotiator or a Brazilian negotiator, we are human beings. Yeah. You know, we belong to the same community and we need to come together and solve a common problem. So let us see the magic of the Amazon.

Tom : [00:47:15] Well, that's the other thing. It's the Amazon, right? In this incredibly precious, very vulnerable ecosystem. Probably the first time many of those people will ever have been to the Amazon.

Ana Toni: [00:47:25] Yeah. Many Brazilians probably haven't been to the Amazon. But I hope also with learning from indigenous people and traditional people that we have obviously in the Amazon that will inspire and bring some of their rituals to the cop that allows them, and perhaps will allow us to think about the common goals that we all have, rather than the immediate transactional goals that each country and each person have. Let us hope.

Tom : [00:47:58] Are you anticipating a very large participation from Brazilian indigenous?

Ana Toni: [00:48:01] Yes we are. We are anticipating many indigenous people coming. Obviously they can come in many different ways by boat, walking cars, buses. So we are expecting a lot of indigenous people, not only from Brazil but from the Amazon basin coming to Berlin. So that will be a big inspiration because more indigenous people, more traditional people. I'm sure they will be able to to help us to push the agenda forward and to give us the sense of direction and commonality that we need.

Tom : [00:48:37] And a bigger lens and a sense of shared perspective, which is what you said. That's what's needed.

Ana Toni: [00:48:41] That's it.

Tom : [00:48:42] Yeah. Tony, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Look forward to more conversations in the coming months.

Ana Toni: [00:48:46] Yeah, it'll be great. And thank you for doing the program.

Speaker14: [00:48:49] Oh we're thrilled. Really really.

Ana Toni: [00:48:50] Nice. This countdown for for cop 30 and bringing everybody together and looking forward to continue the conversation.

Tom: [00:48:58] Thanks, Anna. Thank you.

Tom : [00:49:00] I mean, Anna is such a refreshing leader in this space. She's so honest, she's so straightforward. She's so clear about what's needed. She's really prepared to name the leadership name, what needs to happen. That's actually quite rare in a senior diplomat. And I think she's really well positioned to be successful in this role.

Fiona McRaith: [00:49:15] Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, the role she's played in past cops bringing in different voices as well, I think is already very obvious the way that she's doing that in this very important role ahead of BLM and really look forward to, um, remaining engaged with her as part of Inside Cop.

Tom : [00:49:30] So one of the interesting questions I think it would be worth reflecting on for a minute at this point is just the role of civil society. So in previous years here. And I remember this even when I first joined Cristiano at the UN prior to Paris, this was back in 2013, 2014. There were a couple of million people on the streets. We saw that again in 2019, pre-pandemic, and we're at a moment more consequential now than we were then. But the world is distracted, right? We have all these other challenges that we're facing. And I think despite the best efforts of many groups, I think what Ana Toni said is probably my reflection from this week, which is we haven't felt the potency of protest about climate as strongly as we maybe have done in previous years. And that's not to criticize any of the groups. I mean, it's difficult, right? The world has changed. The US is a difficult environment now, but I think that I would agree that that power, we need it.

Fiona McRaith: [00:50:25] So that is when I was a I started my climate work when I was 14 years old as a youth activist. And the world, you know, I don't want to say it's more or less complex, but it's totally shifting the way in which power is held. The rise of fascism. Like really concerning things around the world, I think there are still so many civil society activations. We see that all over. Yeah. And I think while that is true that we don't see the same overt marching with climate as the banners, the intersectionality of these issues undergird all of what we see. The instability all over is partially due to the stress that our world is under due to climate. I mean, food, water, droughts, floods, all of these natural.

Tom : [00:51:17] Democracy.

Fiona McRaith: [00:51:17] Democracy. I mean, like security, energy security, all of it is interwoven. So like. Yes. And I also just want to say, you know, as someone who's younger, who again, started as an activist, like, it's great to hear that those helped. But also like did they? I remained skeptical, or I would like it to be more proven to me that those demonstrations, the speeches we heard from youth activists over and over calling for leaders to take action on this. Like, where is that action? You know?

Tom : [00:51:50] Well, so so let's discuss that for a minute, because, I mean, I think what I witnessed on the inside track before Paris, with all of the momentum out on the streets, you'd be surprised. I mean, politicians are there because they react to public opinion, right? You'd be surprised the degree to which that shapes the context that those conversations happen within. And yes, it wasn't enough, but action took place. But but I think that your point is a very good one, which is that now we are in what, you know, used to be called the omni crisis or the perma crisis of like, all these things happening in our world. Yeah. How does the power of civil society and youth and activism come together to try to hold leaders accountable to doing their jobs and protecting the public and protecting the future. And that's a really interesting question I don't feel I have the answers to. It's true that we need to campaign on the totality of that issue. And of course, conflict and democracy and security and food are connected to climate and the future, but we still need the messages to land in a way that is simple and clear, so that political leaders feel they have no choice but to go further and faster. And if we don't have that push, I fear that the commitments will not be as ambitious as they could otherwise be.

Fiona McRaith: [00:53:04] Yeah.

Tom : [00:53:05] So this is going to bring us to the end of this episode, which has been a really fun one. I think we've we've learned a lot this week here in New York, and it's obviously a bit of a montage that brings together different conversations and live events we've had over the week. But just try and wrap it up before we say goodbye to the listeners. What do you think we've learned that we didn't know we arrived here 300 years ago.

Fiona McRaith: [00:53:27] Three. It took me a while to even hear that.

Tom : [00:53:31] Which can reduce the reaction time.

Fiona McRaith: [00:53:33] Yeah. No, I think that's emblematic of the exhaustion we all feel. None of this is Groundbreakingly original, but for me, a reaffirmation of how much incredible work is happening really across all sectors. I mean, there are certain governments that we hear a lot about in the news, but there are so many others that are still leading. We know companies are still working on this. We know that innovation incubator funds are still propelling forward on these incredible inventions. And critically, civil society is activating. Sunday was the Sunday going in to this week. That was just this blooming and blossoming all over the world of the civil society activating on climate. So for me, that was super affirming, and I hadn't anticipated that coming into the week. And I think this clarity about working towards Cop hearing a lot from the Cop presidency, not only on this podcast, but all around the event. You know, we've talked a lot about their team and the consistency of messaging about what we're looking for, clarity on these commitments, you know, capital, how are we going to fund this and collaboration? It's about all of us working together really came through to me across many different things, which, um, you know, if that's what's happening in such a busy week. Pretty good.

Tom : [00:54:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, like so many things on climate, it's the best of times and the worst of times, right? This is one of the challenges we have as we kind of go through this weird period of years where climate change is becoming manifest and our collective response to it is becoming more clear and understood. I just had a cup of coffee with a friend who lives here in New York, but he's from Hong Kong, and she was saying that she's been in touch with her family. Right now in Hong Kong are the fastest winds ever recorded.

Speaker16: [00:55:19] Oh my gosh.

Tom : [00:55:19] And the devastation that people are enduring. This is the third of these extreme storms they've had this year. And just, you know, people don't know what to do, right? They haven't invested in resilience. They can do that to a certain point. That's happening right now as this goes on. So when you put that up as the bar that the world has experienced, it's impossible for what's happened here this week to feel anything other than woefully insufficient. Yeah. However, you also have to keep moving, right? You have to see what's there and identify the possibility and the opportunity. And I would say that I feel the bottom hasn't fallen out of this climate world in the way that many people who maybe aren't here think it has. Yes, the US leadership has gone crazy. However, I feel really encouraged being here that we are still moving towards decarbonisation. The economic shifts are still very real. There are still real seriousness and momentum from lots of places. Those places might be new. I mean, that's the other observation I would make is here. We have seen from a national perspective the US throw rocks and the EU not show up, right? Those are the two places historically where we've seen leadership. But we saw President Lula give a remarkable address defending the rules based global order. In a couple of hours, I'll be at the UN, where XI Jinping will be announcing China's nationally determined commitment, which will be the first time they've announced a peak and reduction. We are seeing, as we have been told several times by the leadership from Italy and the Brazilian government that when they're traveling around the world, they are seeing massive innovation and drive forward from corporations in the global South. So the leadership is shifting, right? We're seeing a different place drive this forward. And yes, the stakes are high and the hour is late and the challenges are real. But I'm actually leaving and this feels like a win at this point. I'm leaving feeling like the collapse I thought was here is not here. Now, whether we'll win is still full of jeopardy, but we're still in the game.

Fiona McRaith: [00:57:23] Very, very well said.

Tom : [00:57:24] So this brings to the end the formal part of our podcast. However, it's only Wednesday, so we've been recording this over the last few days. We're still here for a couple of days, but we want to get the episode out so that everyone can listen to it on Thursday morning. So I'm going to go into the SG summit in a couple of hours, which is convening with President Lula. It's an interesting list of speakers. It starts with China, the European Union, Turkey, Australia, but the list goes on. There is actually 118 heads of state that are due to speak at that event.

Fiona McRaith: [00:57:52] So we'll hear from you in six days.

Tom : [00:57:55] I'll make it through all of that. I don't know, but.

Fiona McRaith: [00:57:57] But again, what a testament to exactly what you were just saying.

Tom : [00:58:00] That's real momentum. That is real momentum. So I might try a bit later to just drop a voice note over to Ben to let him know impressions from there. So listeners that you might hear that as we come to the close of the episode, but this has been fun. So excited to do Inside Cop series with you. And thanks everyone for coming with us on this journey this week.

Fiona McRaith: [00:58:18] And please continue to send us your feedback, your questions. What Intel can we bring you engage with the podcast so that we can make it the most salient for you?

Tom : [00:58:27] Amazing. All right. Thanks, V. Thanks, everybody.

Tom: [00:58:29] Bye.

Tom : [00:58:31] So I'm just stepping out of the head of State summit that's been going on for the last couple of hours with head of state after head of state taking the podium and talking about what they want to do on a national perspective and how they're going to get us back on track. It's it's always actually quite emotional to see these moments because countries bring their ambition, but they also bring something else of their national character. They bring their vulnerability, they bring their hopes. So even though it's a formal diplomatic process, it's always kind of moving. Um, this one started with, uh, Johan Rockström and Katharine Hayhoe, both good friends of the podcast, taking the stage talking about what's at stake. Katharine Hayhoe in particular. It really just took the moment to talk about the practice of hope and how we need to face this moment with courage and determination so we can move forward. And then we got into the national statements. And these will be a sort of matter of a matter of public record by the time this comes out. But it's still worth just talking about the experience of being in the room. Uh, President Lula of Brazil took a big opportunity to talk about the fact that we need to move beyond denialism. Um, he was taking a pretty, pretty evident shot, I think, there at the president of the United States. But he's, uh, he's been pretty bold this week, and he's taken the opportunity to be front foot. And then the main event really was China, uh, who came out and made an announcement that it can be interpreted in so many ways. I mean, the good side is they made a commitment to peak and reduce emissions.

Tom : [00:59:48] That's the first time we've seen that kind of commitment from China. On the other hand, there was only 7% by 2035 from peak levels. That's nowhere near where we need to be in terms of ambition. So everything we've been talking about with the Brazilian presidency and the UNF, triple C about how this is going to have to be and everyone, everywhere, all of society approach is so true. After that intervention and then a series of other statements, the EU came out, made a big, made a big statement, but they're not yet quite ready to determine the level of their commitment. They announced a range of between 66 and 72% by 2035. Pakistan made a pretty emotional statement. Doubling renewables. Ethiopia took the floor. It was it was a series of country after country. And, you know, it just it reminded me so much of of earlier days in Paris and the sense of momentum. You know, the degree to which we've lost some of that determination, but also the deep well of commitment that exists all around the world from so many countries. We could easily fall into the trap of thinking that this year, the UN General Assembly has been a story of Donald Trump. And what I felt leaving the room today after statement after statement from wealthy countries and vulnerable countries is there does still remain real, deep global solidarity to deal with this issue. We need to recognize that we need to welcome it. We need to make sure that we take advantage of it to move forward and everything still there to play for if we can, if we can do that. All right. I think that's it. Thanks so much. Bye.