332: Inside COP: Coal’s out, pressure’s on - a pivotal moment for COP30
As ministers arrive for what is often the most charged phase of the summit, we break down the current state of play at COP30 - the interventions, the negotiations and the milestones so far.
Related Episodes
.png)
.png)
.png)
.png)
.png)
.png)
.png)
.png)
.png)
.png)
.png)
.png)
About this episode
It’s getting hot in the COP.
Executive Secretary Simon Stiell turned up the pressure in Belém on Monday, sharpening his message as ministers arrived for what is often the most charged phase of the summit. He called for no more tactical delays, and no more dancing around the hardest issues.
And Pope Francis weighed in with an appeal to moral responsibility and global solidarity.
Fiona McRaith and Paul Dickenson break down what these dual interventions signal for the state of play at COP30, as key sticking points emerge for negotiators.
And: a major milestone in the global energy transition. South Korea has joined the Powering Past Coal Alliance and committed to phasing out coal by 2040. Paul speaks with Joojin Kim of Solutions for Our Climate to unpack what pushed a G20 economy to move and why Korean industry now sees clean power as its competitive future.
Finally, Christiana sits down with Minister Sonia Guajajara, Brazil’s Minister for Indigenous Peoples, for a powerful conversation about Indigenous diplomacy, forest protection, and why this COP marks a historic shift in global recognition of Indigenous leadership.
Learn more:
⛏ Mine more information about the Powering Past Coal Alliance
🌍 Check out the official COP30 website for background and announcements
🎤 What do you want to hear on Inside COP? Ask us on SpeakPipe or on our socials where you can also see more behind the scenes moments and to watch our videos:
Instagram @outrageoptimism
LinkedIn @outrageoptimism
Or via this form.
Lead Producer: Ben Weaver-Hincks
Planning Producer: Caitlin Hanrahan
Edited by: Miles Martignoni
Exec Producer: Ellie Clifford
With thanks to Groundswell and Global Optimism.
This is a Persephonica production for Global Optimism and is part of the Acast Creator Network.
Full Transcript
Transcript generated by AI. While we aim for accuracy, errors may still occur. Please refer to the episode’s audio for the definitive version
Paul Dickinson: [00:00:00] Bum bum bum bum bum.Fiona McRaith: [00:00:02] Do you want to do the intro or do you want me to?
Paul Dickinson: [00:00:04] I think we should do one each and let them decide. And I think you should go first.
Fiona McRaith: [00:00:12] Hello everybody, and welcome to Inside Cop from Outrage and Optimism.
Paul Dickinson: [00:00:17] I'm Paul Dickinson.
Fiona McRaith: [00:00:18] And I'm Fiona McGrath.
Paul Dickinson: [00:00:19] Today the latest from the negotiations a G20 economy sunsets or decides it's going to sunset coal. And we bring you an interview with Brazil's minister for indigenous people. Thanks for being here. Well, here we are. And, boy, day one of week two. How are you feeling?
Fiona McRaith: [00:00:40] I'm feeling great. I mean, we started this morning with a breakfast briefing. And then I know you went into the blue zone. There was a torrential rain storm in the rainforest. I find them quite beautiful. And now we are recording. And it's the evening on Monday.
Paul Dickinson: [00:00:55] Mhm. Yeah. No, I've found today to be another kind of fascinating day. There is a sort of fire hose of information, and you meet people and you have sort of incredibly interesting meetings, and we're going to try and get on to some of the kind of negotiations. Simon Steele gave a speech. If I try and I try and play the semi expert outsider fee. What's going on? What what did you take from Simon Steele's speech? Where are the negotiations? I know this is. I'll tell you, one thing I can do is I've done my homework, listeners, and I've researched where we are in the negotiations, and it's like somewhere between 10 and 20 pages. So fee is going to give you that in a summary. Where are we and what's going on?
Fiona McRaith: [00:01:38] Thank you. Thank you, Paul, for that honor. So I guess first it's worth revisiting the fact that yesterday, Monday, was the opening of the second week. As Paul has mentioned, that meant that there was an opening dialogue. And the executive secretary of the UNF, triple C, Simon Steele, who was on the podcast last week, really encouraged listeners to go back and hear that episode if you haven't already gave a real call to action speech. I mean, the tone of this, I think, represented a shift from what we've heard from him earlier in The Cop. Now there is a clear tonal call to action to stop kind of dilly dallying. He actually says, we'll just play a clip for you.
Speaker3: [00:02:17] Clearly, there is a huge amount of work ahead for ministers and negotiators. I urge you to get to the hardest issues fast when these issues get pushed deep into extra time. Everybody loses. We absolutely cannot afford to waste time on tactical tactical delays or stonewalling. The time for performative diplomacy has now passed.
Paul Dickinson: [00:02:48] What did he mean for me?
Fiona McRaith: [00:02:49] I think it's really interesting that he calls out performative diplomacy, because there is a lot, and I know we'll get into it. And I don't know if I would necessarily agree with that framing, but I do think it's a really important kind of, um, something that when someone in a leadership position or when the teacher says that you kind of sit up straighter and you like, are like, oh dear God, I gotta kind of be serious about this. And I really appreciate that. The executive secretary is is issuing that call to action today. And obviously he has a different and distinct role, as we heard in the podcast interview with him from the Cop presidency. So I, I thought it was a strong speech. Well done, Simon, and I really hope that the ministers heard that and are sitting up straighter in their seats, sharpening their pencils and really ready to dig in. I think it's also worth before we dive into kind of where we are on, on the negotiations and, and get into the episode that we acknowledge that Pope Leo issued a speech, which I would say was the moral call to action. And I wonder if we play a little excerpt of his speech as well. And I just want to shout out Pope Leo, Chicagoan. Just like myself. South Side White Sox fan. Love it.
Paul Dickinson: [00:03:57] So just to be clear, how do you fit in with the Pope being from Chicago? Like, are you from Chicago?
Fiona McRaith: [00:04:02] Oh, yeah, I'm from Chicago. Listeners, if that's not yet clear, then I have failed my moral obligation.
Pope Leo: [00:04:09] The creation is crying out in floods, droughts, storms and relentless heat. 1 in 3 people live in great vulnerability because of these climate changes. To them, climate change is not a distant threat. And to ignore these people is to deny our shared humanity. Let us send a clear global signal together, nations standing in unwavering solidarity behind the Paris Agreement and behind climate cooperation.
Paul Dickinson: [00:04:40] This is good stuff from the Pope. This is good stuff, he said. The creation is crying out in floods, droughts, storms and relentless heat. That's strong stuff, you know. Religious people are good at that.
Fiona McRaith: [00:04:53] Yeah. I just think that the two sides of the same coin. Hearing from the executive secretary and other leadership at Cop today and the Pope is a really beautiful anchoring as we enter week two. And there's a lot of very important topics that have been raised by the parties that are, in the short term, very, very important on the negotiations. And we'll dive into those a little bit. And at the same time, the the there is a longer, longer lens, a lifting the eyes to the horizon line and trusting that while this week and these negotiations are crucially important and you know how the presidency reflects these back to parties is critical. Um, okay. We've heard excerpts from two really important speeches today made today. Let's just go to the negotiations and try to break down a little bit of what's happening.
Paul Dickinson: [00:05:55] Okay, let's dig into the process. And if I understand correctly, we're in pretty good shape. But there are still a few issues outstanding. Is that A is that a is that about right?
Fiona McRaith: [00:06:08] You know, I think I think, Paul, the way that I would the way that I'm understanding it is when you just zoom out cop is two weeks. The world kind of focuses it on the world's media kind of focuses on it at the beginning, when the world leaders are here, maybe, maybe a little bit, but most of the time it's reporters covering the beat. So when the world's media comes back in to pay attention at the end, they're going to be expecting this gavel moment. And like, frankly, hat tip to Christiana. I think a huge part of this is the success in Paris. I mean, Simon says this in his speech today. It is a crucial text that guides the world on responding to the crisis of climate change, and a lot of the items that are still yet to be resolved, and many of them already have been resolved in the first week, and there are four that parties brought as additional items. These are likely going to be like kind of covered as these hot topics that can't be solved. And the reality is they're not that new. That doesn't mean they're not important, but they're not new. It's about the provision of finance to, um, respond to climate change for adaptation and for mitigation. It's about transparency of what countries are doing to respond to climate change as a requirement of receiving finance. It's about responding to NDCs, which we know nationally determined contributions do not project us out to a 1.5 degree aligned world or anything close to it. But that doesn't mean that we're going to end up there. And that is an NDC response, which is really, really important. This is where the roadmaps come in that we've covered. The transition away from fossil fuel comes in. These are all really important things. I do not want my perception to be misconstrued by listeners or by myself or by you, Paul.
Paul Dickinson: [00:08:07] So, so these these four issues, these four kind of outstanding issues will probably be addressed in some form or other. And over time, we'll be able to see that the process, recognize that the needs of the delegates. Right.
Fiona McRaith: [00:08:18] Yeah. And I think the Cop presidency, I mean, there was another rumor going around today that, you know, the Cop presidency is seeking to to wrap up on Wednesday, and that was slightly misconstrued. They're seeking to wrap the formal negotiations on Wednesday so that cop can close on time. And I don't and I think that's their indication. Should those rumors be true, which I like to think they likely are. These things are not that complicated. And frankly, they're not that new. They've been around for 30 years. We're in Cop 30, like finance will always be an issue. Mitigation and adaptation are issues. That is partially why we are here and that is why looking raising our eyeballs to the horizon, to the longer term, and thinking about what are the political signals that need to be sent from this cop. It's less about the exact minutia of the details in the text, and much more about the spirit of trust, of solidarity, of integrity that is crucial to take away from this cop through the negotiations. And I think both Simon's speech today from the UNF triple C executive secretary, his speech today, the way the Cop presidency is leading the consultations and these negotiating items that have landed on their desks, and also Pope Leo's call, all illustrate the fact that it is about more than the negotiated items on the table, because it's a long term thing. That's just my take. I don't know, listeners, what do you think?
Paul Dickinson: [00:09:40] Okay, this is the big one. Yeah. Huge news today because an incredibly exciting group called the Powering Past Coal Alliance, which is one of the only organizations I don't think I have to explain because they're called the Powering Past Coal Alliance, and I would be insulting the intelligence of our listeners if I explained what they do. They were formed. They are governments, national governments, subnational governments, and they were launched in 2017, and they now have grown to 180 members, including many states, regions and increasingly, financial institutions. Anyway, drumroll. Today, the incredibly significant South Korea, fourth largest importer of coal in the world, joined the Powering Past Coal Alliance. I think Ben, our producer, was in the room when this was announced. Let's hear the how the room felt when the South Korea's Ministry of Environment, Kim Seung hwan, announced this.
Speaker5: [00:10:41] Main drivers for the negative ones.
Paul Dickinson: [00:10:52] So to get an insight into this development, how it happened and I mean, I've got to tell you, I've been to South Korea quite a few times. That is one spectacularly powerful industrial democracy doing the most incredible work, producing, you know, very large quantities of electric vehicles and all kinds of things, but kind of was caught on the back foot by its own energy system. So we spoke to JooJin Kim, founder and CEO of solutions for Our climate, at the Asia Climate Solutions Pavilion. It was kind of hot room. There might be a bit of background noise, but I think it's a fascinating conversation. Here he is.
Paul Dickinson: [00:11:29] Okay. JooJin Kim, great to meet you. You are chief executive of the NGO solutions for Our Climate, and we're in.
Paul Dickinson: [00:11:35] The Asia Climate Solutions Pavilion just to sort of it's quite hot here. Just to let our listeners know. Can you tell us a little bit about where we are in the Cop?
JooJin Kim: [00:11:43] Yes, we are running the so-called Asia Climate Solutions Pavilion, basically to promote the message that we've been promoting, uh, from from our organization for a while about renewable energy, uh, industrial decarbonization, methane emissions, LNG imports, LNG exports, all those things. A lot of several tens of events taking place during the two weeks. Um, we see a lot of crowd coming in. We're just about to start another event here as well. Yeah.
Paul Dickinson: [00:12:11] Now, look, what I really want to talk to you about today is this incredibly exciting announcement related to the Powering Past Coal Alliance. So just say a little word about that. That's a government club. National government, subnational governments launched in 2017, now with over 180 members. The Powering Past Coal Alliance, you can kind of guess what they're up to from the name. But critically today and I couldn't be more excited. The government of South Korea announced it is joining PCA. Can you talk to us a little bit about how you've seen that emerge? I guess you've been supporting that for quite a while and how it turned out. And I guess, is this a big day?
JooJin Kim: [00:12:51] Yes. Our team actually began with, uh, the move against coal. One of our earliest, let's say, accomplishments was nudging the Korean government to move away from financing, especially overseas coal projects, coal power projects that all.
Paul Dickinson: [00:13:06] Hugely important.
JooJin Kim: [00:13:07] South Korea announced to, uh, no longer fund coal projects abroad in 2020 1st April, Japan followed in June 2021, and then China. Korean leadership well, yeah, China in September 2021. But that was about new build coal power projects abroad. This new announcement is about the coal projects that exist already running and pretty new in the country. And the government is saying that we're going to face them down. We're going to get rid of them by a certain date, practically 2040.
Paul Dickinson: [00:13:34] Now, I'm going to be I've been nice about South Korea, but is it fair to say that actually, to some degree, the South Korean electric energy system was a bit slow to respond to climate change? Is that a fair comment?
JooJin Kim: [00:13:45] That is right. That is right. The South Korean power sector is not in the most healthy shape, I must say, in terms of accountability and governance. Our power sector has been run by state owned utilities, very monopolized monolithic grid system. And it was part of the economic miracle. When we were poor, the government had to concentrate money into one big company to build coal power plants, gas power plants or nuclear power plants, and that's our power sector was born. It's still run by those companies. Renewables is a new kind of animal. You don't need that much money to build a solar power plant or even onshore wind power plant. It's become cheaper, feasible new competition to the fossil fuel based, mainly state led company power plants and are mainly government led utilities, haven't been responding to it properly. They've been taking away a lot of the space where renewables can act, but also technology, technology. I mean, what works in in Europe or many developing nations in terms of renewables would work in Korea. So renewables have been slowly penetrating the economy even during right after martial law, when our government basically did not have a president. The Offshore Wind Act passed and many developments on renewables are happening, which I think has been culminated in this recent announcement by the Korean government to join the PCA.
Paul Dickinson: [00:15:05] So you've got you've got the Offshore wind Act through when you didn't have a president.
JooJin Kim: [00:15:08] Yes. That's right.
Paul Dickinson: [00:15:09] Okay. So there's a hint there for people in the USA. President can be the problem, not the solution.
JooJin Kim: [00:15:13] Climate progress does happen. I mean, climate progress is not a Democrat or Republican, progressive or or conservative issue. It's it's just it's a common sense issue. And responding to climate change is is also a great industrial opportunity. And I don't think there's a conservative or a progressive kind of divide there.
Paul Dickinson: [00:15:31] And hearing you say that as a South Korean is no small thing because for those who don't know, you know, a few decades back, South Korea's economy was about 10% of of UK per capita income. It's now, for example, I'm UK. That's why I'm giving you that as a reference greater than UK per capita income. So there's clearly a technological and industrial leadership from South Korea. Now to what degree do you think this announcement is correlated to the export implications of essentially a high carbon electricity system?
JooJin Kim: [00:16:01] Our export oriented nature has become a very good motivator to decarbonize when a new trend around the world can affect our exports. It's very politically appealing. Let's say when our government started to hear that there are companies around the world, especially in the IT sector, that want companies like Samsung to decarbonize their production. That was a very big shock to our political establishment. It's also very politically appealing, important to address to properly address that issue. So our export oriented economy has helped expedite our decarbonization speed. Yeah.
Paul Dickinson: [00:16:41] And there's something very important you said earlier, which I just want to come back to, which is that the problem is that the state controlled grid was slow. Yes. The state controlled electricity company was slow to respond. And we see this all over the world. Yes. But is it true that 99%. And I mean, this just blew my mind. 99% of Korean business executives want to shift from fossil based to renewable electricity.
JooJin Kim: [00:17:02] Yeah, that is true. That is that is that is pretty true. I mean, businessmen travel around, sell products to to customers abroad, and the customers and their customers would ask for what their supply chain is, how electricity is provided, and they really don't have answers. And they also have frustrations that our power sector is not changing. Yeah, that is true.
Paul Dickinson: [00:17:22] Free energy from the sun. Always good. Korean business people taking a leadership position. Okay. So the power protocol allowance talks about coal plants ending kind of by 2040. Do you think it can be quicker?
JooJin Kim: [00:17:35] I think that's a reality that many of a lot of that happened in Europe as well. I mean, Germany announced the coal phaseout by this date, faster UK as well. It won't be a surprise if the same thing happens in Korea. Basically, the government is saying 15 years later this is not no longer exist. But for the people holding the power plants, they already know it's not going to be the future. They would they would want to change faster if they're proper people. So I think it's going to happen faster.
Paul Dickinson: [00:18:00] And this is also a kind of an import basically because there's a couple of points here. Number one is uh, presumably as you phase out coal, bring in solar storage, whatever, you're going to be spending less on coal imports. Right. And that's going to be better, presumably for the balance of payments of South Korea.
JooJin Kim: [00:18:18] Of course, I mean, we close most of our coal mines a long time ago. No gas in the country. We basically import a lot of fossil fuels. Yes. Renewables is the answer there. Yeah, it will reduce a lot of that deficit, let's say.
Paul Dickinson: [00:18:32] I believe you're actually currently the fourth largest coal importer in the world now. Is this a big shock for Australia? Maybe.
JooJin Kim: [00:18:37] Yeah. Uh, it should be. I hope it is. And we're not just the largest, uh, one of the largest importers of coal. We're also one of the largest importers of LNG. I mean, it's going to be higher than Top rank for when it comes to LNG as well. Yeah.
Paul Dickinson: [00:18:51] So do you think that actually, as you get in the habit of solar and battery electric, solar and storage, do you think the LNG is going to go down as well?
JooJin Kim: [00:19:00] Uh, it should be. I mean, unless our power sector is exponentially expanding and we still need LNG, yes, it will be competition to gas. It's actually that competition actually is happening in smaller grids inside the country. In our island grids, there is strong competition between renewable assets and gas assets down there. Load More
Paul Dickinson: [00:19:18] That's impressive. And I just have to ask you about the Korean car industry, which I think does have some leadership in electric vehicles. So it's not like the whole industrial economy has been caught behind. Right?
JooJin Kim: [00:19:28] Yes, yes it is. But it doesn't stop there. I mean, cars are basically made out of steel plates. Okay. And steel is, until now, unfortunately, a coal based product. The car industry will also have to not just change the how the engines, but also they should change how the how the how the.
Paul Dickinson: [00:19:43] Materials.
JooJin Kim: [00:19:44] That that steel cars are made of as well.
Paul Dickinson: [00:19:47] And look, one more weird question, but I got to prompt you. Do you think there's a potential for South Korean manufacture of solar and batteries to increase, to meet your domestic demand for decarbonised electricity systems?
JooJin Kim: [00:20:01] The reality was that our solar solar industry was mainly relying on exports, because the way our power sector is run did not provide a lot of opportunities for solar power plants, they had to find markets abroad. Battery industry as well. That's not good. And I think.
Paul Dickinson: [00:20:18] Okay, so now you're going to become domestic champions purchasing your own product.
JooJin Kim: [00:20:21] I hope so, yeah, I hope so.
Paul Dickinson: [00:20:23] I mean last question for me really is. I personally have had the privilege to to be visiting your great country for a couple of decades now. How do you feel about the future of South Korean industrial development, innovation, and the opportunities to catch the kind of decarbonisation wave, the electro tech revolution? How well positioned is South Korea?
JooJin Kim: [00:20:48] Well, Denmark realized that oil and gas will be a problem in the 1970s, and that became the birth of Danish wind industry. We're late, and you got to understand and make it clear that something is bad in order to in order to get something new done. It does take a lot of time and effort to make that innovation. We're I mean, our people are quite diligent. Um, there is a legacy of economic innovation in the country. I hope this and many other announcements that could follow in the future, contributes to our innovation in the future.
Paul Dickinson: [00:21:24] You might be late, but my experience of Korean industries is also fast and it's also big. So good luck helping the world. Thank you very much. Thank you. Great day. Thank you. See, I got to tell you, I really enjoyed that conversation. What did you make?
Fiona McRaith: [00:21:39] I mean, ah, I kind of wish I could be there and clone myself because this is just, to me, like, such a brilliant signal. And I think one of the things that I want to underscore about the Powering Pascal Alliance, which is we hear all the time, is that when you join, when you become a member, you not only commit to no new coal, you commit to a clear timetable for coal phaseout and ending public finance for unabated coal like these are tangible, clear commitments. It's not kind of some like future maybe this will happen vague vague thing. And I just think that is so refreshing. I'm a little bit envious of you, Paul, though I don't envy like being in the the heat of the of the room. Um, I think one of the things that struck me, though, from your brilliant conversation was the fact that industry wants this. I mean, 99% of Korean business executives want renewable electricity. That is pretty epically amazing. As someone who works with corporate sector as part of the Climate Pledge, like that is a brilliant leadership signal from executives illustrating, um, I don't know, just awesomeness. What did you what did you think of it, Paul?
Paul Dickinson: [00:22:59] Well, yeah. I mean, look, shout out also to the Re100 initiative who helped, um, Korea sort of kind of wake up. But I think they've got there and, you know, this is sort of kind of classic, super advanced, uh, Korean industry thinking, how's this work? Will renewable energy be an important part of us achieving our export objectives? Yes, it will be essential. Right. I think 99% of us agree about this. That's the that's the smartness of career. And actually I will, if I may, um, give a little shout out to the organization where I work, uh, CDP.
Fiona McRaith: [00:23:32] We had the organization ahem you founded.
Paul Dickinson: [00:23:36] You're very you're very kind. Feel blessed.
Fiona McRaith: [00:23:39] It is true, dear listeners.
Paul Dickinson: [00:23:42] We we we, uh, we launched a report, actually, in November, uh, very recently called Unlocking Credible Transition Finance at scale and all so many of these companies, 94% of companies talking about transition plans to CDP disclosed dependencies critical to achieving them. Um, and one of those categories is infrastructure and regulatory frameworks. And I think, you know, policy is necessary to address the bottlenecks. And certainly the Korean government has come forward and sort of said, right, well, we're going to we're going to deliver that policy. We're going to join the Powering Past alliance. It's fantastically good news was pointed out that maybe not such great news for Australia, which is the world's largest coal exporter. But maybe that's good because maybe Australia doesn't want to be exporting so much coal. I don't even know. It's kind of complicated. Coal is a problematic product. It's kind of the tobacco of climate change, sorry, got to say it. But, you know, it's something that we have to drive out for health reasons. And it's there's there's more of a, there's more of a like it's not just metaphorical. Um, coal actually does contribute significantly to lung disease. So there's a kind of weird parallel with tobacco. I just good, good news for coal. Good news for Korea.
Fiona McRaith: [00:24:51] Great. Great news for Korea. Good news for coal. Because I kind of am of the belief that coal wants to be left in the ground where it is and where it belongs. Absolutely. Good news for coal. Absolutely right. Good news for all of us.
Paul Dickinson: [00:25:03] It's kind of like you're down there. You're kind of like you're.
Fiona McRaith: [00:25:05] Kind of chilling. You've been down.
Paul Dickinson: [00:25:07] Wait a minute. Some fool with a bulldozer is trying to dig me up and burn me. No.
Fiona McRaith: [00:25:12] Why are you burning me? Okay, um. Now that we've gone into coals, um. Mind and heart and soul and appreciate that they don't even want to be burned. I also wanted to call out because you mentioned Australia. You know, one of the issues that we've been following and I think will continue to follow with even more interest, is who will host next year's Cop Cop 31. You know, it's been between Turkey and Australia. We talked about this last week with the rumor that Turkey's first lady has taken a personal interest in this. And, you know, some Intel from the ground is that the Australian minister is here and the their counterpart from Turkey is not here. His their deputy is here. So that is an interesting thing. We'll see how that falls out. But it is an interesting question, especially with this coal announcement. If Australia were to host and they would host with the South Pacific Islands, um, the presidency, what light would that shine on on some of their heavy industries? And they do have some leaders in that space. But you know, they're also a have.
Paul Dickinson: [00:26:13] Incredible growth of solar there as well. The ironies are rich. Yeah.
Fiona McRaith: [00:26:17] And I think a real snapshot of of reality and and what is possible that and could be charted. But let's go on to the brilliant minister Sonia Guajajara, Brazil's minister of indigenous Peoples. Last week, Christiana sat down with her. Um, and as with some of their interviews, they conducted this in Portuguese and Spanish. But you'll hear Christiana speak in English, and the minister's words are voiced in English by the brilliant Georgia.
Christiana Figueres: [00:26:54] Minister Guajajara, thank you so much for joining us here on Inside Cop. Minister. Quisiera empezar por preguntarle lo mas basico y lo mas evidente. Minister. In 30 years of history of the climate convention, Brazil is the first Cop presidency to place indigenous voices at the center of this discussion. Why did Brazil do that? And as you are leading this effort on behalf of the Brazilian government, why is it important and how are you achieving it?
Sonia Guajajara: [00:27:37] Climaticas nao pode acontecer sem.
Sonia Gujajara: [00:27:42] The debate on climate change cannot take place without considering the voices and the presence of those who truly protect the environment, protect the forests and protect the land. It has already been proven that indigenous peoples are the greatest guardians of the planet, the greatest guardians of life. So we have worked very hard here as the Ministry of Indigenous Peoples, in coordination with the indigenous movement, to ensure that this scope would have indigenous identity That it would reflect the diversity of indigenous people from Brazil, Latin America and the world. We work together with the indigenous movement to clarify what the cop is, what structure it has, and what topics are discussed. We also coordinated with the Brazilian government to ensure the largest number of indigenous participants possible. So here we have 65,000%, 17% of the Brazilian delegations of the Brazilian civil society delegations are indigenous.
Christiana Figueres: [00:28:50] 17% of the Brazilian civil delegation at this cop is indigenous.
Sonia Guajajara: [00:28:58] Trabajamos para receber esses indigenous. Aqui também em Berlin.
Sonia Gujajara: [00:29:02] So you also work to welcome these indigenous participants here in Berlin and we build our cop village. The cop Copper Village has 3400 indigenous people hosted there, but also a place for gathering and debate. It is where science meets ancestry. There we are promoting debates, dialogues and exchanges among peoples. Community initiatives are being presented. We have the cycle of peoples here in the Green Zone, which is also built by the Ministry of Indigenous Peoples, together with the International Indigenous Movement and the Global Alliance of Territorial Communities, so that we could have representation from Brazil and through existing indigenous bodies such as the platform of indigenous peoples and local communities, the UN Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues, the Indigenous Caucus, the Amazon Basin. We worked on national and international coordination to ensure organized participation connected to the thematic discussions. So the scope is already marked as the one with the greatest and best indigenous participations in leaderships, because we are not here only with a physical presence or simply the largest delegation in history, we managed to bring indigenous agenda to the center of the global debate so that together we can find solutions to the climate crisis.
Christiana Figueres: [00:30:26] Minister Porfavor so, Minister, please explain to us what are the themes. I understand the structure and the participation, and I understand, of course, that there is more indigenous participation in this Cop than in any other cop. But what are the specific goals? What achievements are being sought at this cop on the part of indigenous peoples?
Sonia Guajajara: [00:30:56] Or territories?
Sonia Gujajara: [00:30:59] This cop needs to recognize indigenous territories and traditional territories as climate mitigation measures we have also worked on this with the Brazilian government. President Lula spoke at the leaders meeting on the first day, both on the NDC issues and the launch of the Tropical Forest Forever facility in testing that is important for Brazil to recognize and calling on other countries to also recognize indigenous territories as mitigation measures. He also called on countries to include indigenous territories and indigenous peoples in their indices. This was very important. President Lula publicly assuming this together with other countries. He also launches the financing mechanism, which was directly built by the Ministry of Indigenous Peoples and Indigenous Movement, to ensure that at least 20% of the funds are transferred directly to indigenous people and organizations. So we had these two important announcements, which for us are more than announcements. They are achievements. These are important steps because in the 15 cups I have participated in completely in 15 here in Berlin, this is the first time in history that indigenous agenda is the center of the debates, that presidents are talking about indigenous peoples, and recognizing what science has already show that indigenous territories are carbon sinks, that they prevent emissions, and that we need the foreign sustained to continue producing rain, to continue producing the air everyone breathes. So we are very pleased with the progress of the indigenous agenda within the official speech of the conference.
Christiana Figueres: [00:32:40] Podriamos decir gran parte de. So we could say that a major part of the goal of indigenous participation has already been achieved because the Forest Protection Fund has been launched, already capitalized with at least $5.5 billion, and will continue to receive more. Would it be fair to say that this was the first success of the cup.
Sonia Guajajara: [00:33:07] O primeiro a primeira grande.
Sonia Gujajara: [00:33:10] It is fair to say that the first major achievement of this cup is the launch of the team, with the guarantee that 20% will go to indigenous peoples. It is also an achievement that President Lula has already recognized indigenous territory as a climate mitigation measure. And now we are working actively every day to ensure that this recognition appears in the thematic groups, especially in the mitigation group, and is included in the final document.
Christiana Figueres: [00:33:42] Es muy, muy interesante. That perspective is very interesting because until now, in the convention's tradition, forest protection has mostly been understood through the lens of resilience and adaptation, considering it as mitigation is innovative in.
Sonia Guajajara: [00:34:01] É a primeira vez.
Sonia Gujajara: [00:34:03] It is innovative. It is the first time this proposal has arrived at the centre of the debates. In addition to think about the mitigations policy through the demarcation of indigenous lands, we are also proposing the need for support for adaptation projects because many indigenous people, even though we are the greatest guardians, are the first to be affected by the consequence of the climate crisis. Many are already being displaced. Many are already being affected in their day to day lives within their territories, when severe droughts of major floods prevent them from travelling to attend classes or go to school. It affects education when transportation is by river and access is not possible due to drought. It affects food security when planning and harvesting no longer follow the customary seasons due to changing weather patterns, it affects culture. Executor when we no longer have water to carry out our rituals. It affects health, and when we no longer have medicinal herbs to perform our traditional healing. So we are already living the impacts of climate change. We urgently need support for adaptation projects and agenda.
Christiana Figueres: [00:35:20] Positiva Constructiva tan exitosa. With such a positive, constructive and already successful agenda and with more successes to come, it was very difficult for the public to understand the cause of the protests we saw on the second day of the Cop last week. Some representatives of indigenous communities were unhappy with something and protested. I think. Could you explain to us what happened?
Sonia Gujajara: [00:35:57] The first thing that needs to be understood is that it was not a protest led by the indigenous people. There were many other people there, many other movements, students, political groups, other movements leading that protest.
Christiana Figueres: [00:36:12] Are very interesting.
Sonia Gujajara: [00:36:13] Indigenous and some indigenous individuals were present, but it was not led by indigenous people. I think that is the first point, because they cannot place the blame on indigenous peoples for acts of vandalism here at the Cop. It is important that you help conveying this because you are against any act of vandalism, any act of destruction of public or private property here. Access is guaranteed. There are 400 indigenous participants from Brazil accredited in the Blue Zone, and this representation was selected by the Brazilian Indigenous Movement. The Ministry of Indigenous Peoples, together with the movements, conducted a cop training process that reached every Brazilian state in the Amazon. We went more than once in Amazonas. There were three stages in Mato Grosso do Sul, two stages. Considering the linguistics challenge of the guarani-kaiowa, we held a specific stage for them here in para. We held a statewide stage and the State Secretariat for Indigenous Peoples conducted the nine stages, including in the region where some of the indigenous individuals who protested were from. President Lula made a visit on the Saturday after the leader's meeting. To that region. Were indigenous peoples attending the Cup live? He went there to learn and to bring public policies to that territory. So there is no absence of state there. There was no real reason for the protest. Of course, we still have a significant backlog of indigenous land demarcation. We are working to demarcate those territories. The lands mentioned during the protests are not currently on the president's desk to be signed. They are still in early stages. That is why I say we have the largest indigenous representations here, not only in physical presence, but with effective participation in our space specifics.
Christiana Figueres: [00:38:15] Minister Guajajara, thank you so very much.
Sonia Guajajara: [00:38:19] Obrigada.
Fiona McRaith: [00:38:27] In my response to this interview, I actually want to zoom out or look back to when Lula won office and when Minister Guajajara was brought into office, and the international waves that this made as a symbol of opportunity, of joy, of The success of fortitude, of centering of indigenous peoples perspectives in a brilliant, progressive government in Brazil was ground shaking. And I just want to, like, hold up that testament to the the real labor that it takes to continuously return to centering indigenous peoples and indigenous knowledge and indigenous perspectives in bureaucratic, often Western style government ministries. I don't want to oversimplify it like it's it's not a simple issue, and I feel that it's probably near impossible to be perfect in how to do this, especially when you're doing it for the first time. And I hope that this example from Brazil, which is courageous and sets a precedent for what is expected in the future of other presidencies, regardless of what their. If they have a ministry that is focused on indigenous peoples. Um, and I think it's so important to recognize the immense volume of what we can learn from these conversations and from the messages that we're listening to from indigenous leaders and indigenous people, and the fact that these aren't just us listening. There are tangible things being said that we can and governments can, and other actors can and must attend to. And that came through to me in this conversation and in others that we've other guests that we've had on the podcast.
Paul Dickinson: [00:40:38] What a lovely note to end on. Um, great to be with you all today and we're going to be back tomorrow, so see you soon on Inside Court.
Fiona McRaith: [00:40:44] Bye.
JooJin Kim: [00:19:28] Yes, yes it is. But it doesn't stop there. I mean, cars are basically made out of steel plates. Okay. And steel is, until now, unfortunately, a coal based product. The car industry will also have to not just change the how the engines, but also they should change how the how the how the.
Paul Dickinson: [00:19:43] Materials.
JooJin Kim: [00:19:44] That that steel cars are made of as well.
Paul Dickinson: [00:19:47] And look, one more weird question, but I got to prompt you. Do you think there's a potential for South Korean manufacture of solar and batteries to increase, to meet your domestic demand for decarbonised electricity systems?
JooJin Kim: [00:20:01] The reality was that our solar solar industry was mainly relying on exports, because the way our power sector is run did not provide a lot of opportunities for solar power plants, they had to find markets abroad. Battery industry as well. That's not good. And I think.
Paul Dickinson: [00:20:18] Okay, so now you're going to become domestic champions purchasing your own product.
JooJin Kim: [00:20:21] I hope so, yeah, I hope so.
Paul Dickinson: [00:20:23] I mean last question for me really is. I personally have had the privilege to to be visiting your great country for a couple of decades now. How do you feel about the future of South Korean industrial development, innovation, and the opportunities to catch the kind of decarbonisation wave, the electro tech revolution? How well positioned is South Korea?
JooJin Kim: [00:20:48] Well, Denmark realized that oil and gas will be a problem in the 1970s, and that became the birth of Danish wind industry. We're late, and you got to understand and make it clear that something is bad in order to in order to get something new done. It does take a lot of time and effort to make that innovation. We're I mean, our people are quite diligent. Um, there is a legacy of economic innovation in the country. I hope this and many other announcements that could follow in the future, contributes to our innovation in the future.
Paul Dickinson: [00:21:24] You might be late, but my experience of Korean industries is also fast and it's also big. So good luck helping the world. Thank you very much. Thank you. Great day. Thank you. See, I got to tell you, I really enjoyed that conversation. What did you make?
Fiona McRaith: [00:21:39] I mean, ah, I kind of wish I could be there and clone myself because this is just, to me, like, such a brilliant signal. And I think one of the things that I want to underscore about the Powering Pascal Alliance, which is we hear all the time, is that when you join, when you become a member, you not only commit to no new coal, you commit to a clear timetable for coal phaseout and ending public finance for unabated coal like these are tangible, clear commitments. It's not kind of some like future maybe this will happen vague vague thing. And I just think that is so refreshing. I'm a little bit envious of you, Paul, though I don't envy like being in the the heat of the of the room. Um, I think one of the things that struck me, though, from your brilliant conversation was the fact that industry wants this. I mean, 99% of Korean business executives want renewable electricity. That is pretty epically amazing. As someone who works with corporate sector as part of the Climate Pledge, like that is a brilliant leadership signal from executives illustrating, um, I don't know, just awesomeness. What did you what did you think of it, Paul?
Paul Dickinson: [00:22:59] Well, yeah. I mean, look, shout out also to the Re100 initiative who helped, um, Korea sort of kind of wake up. But I think they've got there and, you know, this is sort of kind of classic, super advanced, uh, Korean industry thinking, how's this work? Will renewable energy be an important part of us achieving our export objectives? Yes, it will be essential. Right. I think 99% of us agree about this. That's the that's the smartness of career. And actually I will, if I may, um, give a little shout out to the organization where I work, uh, CDP.
Fiona McRaith: [00:23:32] We had the organization ahem you founded.
Paul Dickinson: [00:23:36] You're very you're very kind. Feel blessed.
Fiona McRaith: [00:23:39] It is true, dear listeners.
Paul Dickinson: [00:23:42] We we we, uh, we launched a report, actually, in November, uh, very recently called Unlocking Credible Transition Finance at scale and all so many of these companies, 94% of companies talking about transition plans to CDP disclosed dependencies critical to achieving them. Um, and one of those categories is infrastructure and regulatory frameworks. And I think, you know, policy is necessary to address the bottlenecks. And certainly the Korean government has come forward and sort of said, right, well, we're going to we're going to deliver that policy. We're going to join the Powering Past alliance. It's fantastically good news was pointed out that maybe not such great news for Australia, which is the world's largest coal exporter. But maybe that's good because maybe Australia doesn't want to be exporting so much coal. I don't even know. It's kind of complicated. Coal is a problematic product. It's kind of the tobacco of climate change, sorry, got to say it. But, you know, it's something that we have to drive out for health reasons. And it's there's there's more of a, there's more of a like it's not just metaphorical. Um, coal actually does contribute significantly to lung disease. So there's a kind of weird parallel with tobacco. I just good, good news for coal. Good news for Korea.
Fiona McRaith: [00:24:51] Great. Great news for Korea. Good news for coal. Because I kind of am of the belief that coal wants to be left in the ground where it is and where it belongs. Absolutely. Good news for coal. Absolutely right. Good news for all of us.
Paul Dickinson: [00:25:03] It's kind of like you're down there. You're kind of like you're.
Fiona McRaith: [00:25:05] Kind of chilling. You've been down.
Paul Dickinson: [00:25:07] Wait a minute. Some fool with a bulldozer is trying to dig me up and burn me. No.
Fiona McRaith: [00:25:12] Why are you burning me? Okay, um. Now that we've gone into coals, um. Mind and heart and soul and appreciate that they don't even want to be burned. I also wanted to call out because you mentioned Australia. You know, one of the issues that we've been following and I think will continue to follow with even more interest, is who will host next year's Cop Cop 31. You know, it's been between Turkey and Australia. We talked about this last week with the rumor that Turkey's first lady has taken a personal interest in this. And, you know, some Intel from the ground is that the Australian minister is here and the their counterpart from Turkey is not here. His their deputy is here. So that is an interesting thing. We'll see how that falls out. But it is an interesting question, especially with this coal announcement. If Australia were to host and they would host with the South Pacific Islands, um, the presidency, what light would that shine on on some of their heavy industries? And they do have some leaders in that space. But you know, they're also a have.
Paul Dickinson: [00:26:13] Incredible growth of solar there as well. The ironies are rich. Yeah.
Fiona McRaith: [00:26:17] And I think a real snapshot of of reality and and what is possible that and could be charted. But let's go on to the brilliant minister Sonia Guajajara, Brazil's minister of indigenous Peoples. Last week, Christiana sat down with her. Um, and as with some of their interviews, they conducted this in Portuguese and Spanish. But you'll hear Christiana speak in English, and the minister's words are voiced in English by the brilliant Georgia.
Christiana Figueres: [00:26:54] Minister Guajajara, thank you so much for joining us here on Inside Cop. Minister. Quisiera empezar por preguntarle lo mas basico y lo mas evidente. Minister. In 30 years of history of the climate convention, Brazil is the first Cop presidency to place indigenous voices at the center of this discussion. Why did Brazil do that? And as you are leading this effort on behalf of the Brazilian government, why is it important and how are you achieving it?
Sonia Guajajara: [00:27:37] Climaticas nao pode acontecer sem.
Sonia Gujajara: [00:27:42] The debate on climate change cannot take place without considering the voices and the presence of those who truly protect the environment, protect the forests and protect the land. It has already been proven that indigenous peoples are the greatest guardians of the planet, the greatest guardians of life. So we have worked very hard here as the Ministry of Indigenous Peoples, in coordination with the indigenous movement, to ensure that this scope would have indigenous identity That it would reflect the diversity of indigenous people from Brazil, Latin America and the world. We work together with the indigenous movement to clarify what the cop is, what structure it has, and what topics are discussed. We also coordinated with the Brazilian government to ensure the largest number of indigenous participants possible. So here we have 65,000%, 17% of the Brazilian delegations of the Brazilian civil society delegations are indigenous.
Christiana Figueres: [00:28:50] 17% of the Brazilian civil delegation at this cop is indigenous.
Sonia Guajajara: [00:28:58] Trabajamos para receber esses indigenous. Aqui também em Berlin.
Sonia Gujajara: [00:29:02] So you also work to welcome these indigenous participants here in Berlin and we build our cop village. The cop Copper Village has 3400 indigenous people hosted there, but also a place for gathering and debate. It is where science meets ancestry. There we are promoting debates, dialogues and exchanges among peoples. Community initiatives are being presented. We have the cycle of peoples here in the Green Zone, which is also built by the Ministry of Indigenous Peoples, together with the International Indigenous Movement and the Global Alliance of Territorial Communities, so that we could have representation from Brazil and through existing indigenous bodies such as the platform of indigenous peoples and local communities, the UN Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues, the Indigenous Caucus, the Amazon Basin. We worked on national and international coordination to ensure organized participation connected to the thematic discussions. So the scope is already marked as the one with the greatest and best indigenous participations in leaderships, because we are not here only with a physical presence or simply the largest delegation in history, we managed to bring indigenous agenda to the center of the global debate so that together we can find solutions to the climate crisis.
Christiana Figueres: [00:30:26] Minister Porfavor so, Minister, please explain to us what are the themes. I understand the structure and the participation, and I understand, of course, that there is more indigenous participation in this Cop than in any other cop. But what are the specific goals? What achievements are being sought at this cop on the part of indigenous peoples?
Sonia Guajajara: [00:30:56] Or territories?
Sonia Gujajara: [00:30:59] This cop needs to recognize indigenous territories and traditional territories as climate mitigation measures we have also worked on this with the Brazilian government. President Lula spoke at the leaders meeting on the first day, both on the NDC issues and the launch of the Tropical Forest Forever facility in testing that is important for Brazil to recognize and calling on other countries to also recognize indigenous territories as mitigation measures. He also called on countries to include indigenous territories and indigenous peoples in their indices. This was very important. President Lula publicly assuming this together with other countries. He also launches the financing mechanism, which was directly built by the Ministry of Indigenous Peoples and Indigenous Movement, to ensure that at least 20% of the funds are transferred directly to indigenous people and organizations. So we had these two important announcements, which for us are more than announcements. They are achievements. These are important steps because in the 15 cups I have participated in completely in 15 here in Berlin, this is the first time in history that indigenous agenda is the center of the debates, that presidents are talking about indigenous peoples, and recognizing what science has already show that indigenous territories are carbon sinks, that they prevent emissions, and that we need the foreign sustained to continue producing rain, to continue producing the air everyone breathes. So we are very pleased with the progress of the indigenous agenda within the official speech of the conference.
Christiana Figueres: [00:32:40] Podriamos decir gran parte de. So we could say that a major part of the goal of indigenous participation has already been achieved because the Forest Protection Fund has been launched, already capitalized with at least $5.5 billion, and will continue to receive more. Would it be fair to say that this was the first success of the cup.
Sonia Guajajara: [00:33:07] O primeiro a primeira grande.
Sonia Gujajara: [00:33:10] It is fair to say that the first major achievement of this cup is the launch of the team, with the guarantee that 20% will go to indigenous peoples. It is also an achievement that President Lula has already recognized indigenous territory as a climate mitigation measure. And now we are working actively every day to ensure that this recognition appears in the thematic groups, especially in the mitigation group, and is included in the final document.
Christiana Figueres: [00:33:42] Es muy, muy interesante. That perspective is very interesting because until now, in the convention's tradition, forest protection has mostly been understood through the lens of resilience and adaptation, considering it as mitigation is innovative in.
Sonia Guajajara: [00:34:01] É a primeira vez.
Sonia Gujajara: [00:34:03] It is innovative. It is the first time this proposal has arrived at the centre of the debates. In addition to think about the mitigations policy through the demarcation of indigenous lands, we are also proposing the need for support for adaptation projects because many indigenous people, even though we are the greatest guardians, are the first to be affected by the consequence of the climate crisis. Many are already being displaced. Many are already being affected in their day to day lives within their territories, when severe droughts of major floods prevent them from travelling to attend classes or go to school. It affects education when transportation is by river and access is not possible due to drought. It affects food security when planning and harvesting no longer follow the customary seasons due to changing weather patterns, it affects culture. Executor when we no longer have water to carry out our rituals. It affects health, and when we no longer have medicinal herbs to perform our traditional healing. So we are already living the impacts of climate change. We urgently need support for adaptation projects and agenda.
Christiana Figueres: [00:35:20] Positiva Constructiva tan exitosa. With such a positive, constructive and already successful agenda and with more successes to come, it was very difficult for the public to understand the cause of the protests we saw on the second day of the Cop last week. Some representatives of indigenous communities were unhappy with something and protested. I think. Could you explain to us what happened?
Sonia Gujajara: [00:35:57] The first thing that needs to be understood is that it was not a protest led by the indigenous people. There were many other people there, many other movements, students, political groups, other movements leading that protest.
Christiana Figueres: [00:36:12] Are very interesting.
Sonia Gujajara: [00:36:13] Indigenous and some indigenous individuals were present, but it was not led by indigenous people. I think that is the first point, because they cannot place the blame on indigenous peoples for acts of vandalism here at the Cop. It is important that you help conveying this because you are against any act of vandalism, any act of destruction of public or private property here. Access is guaranteed. There are 400 indigenous participants from Brazil accredited in the Blue Zone, and this representation was selected by the Brazilian Indigenous Movement. The Ministry of Indigenous Peoples, together with the movements, conducted a cop training process that reached every Brazilian state in the Amazon. We went more than once in Amazonas. There were three stages in Mato Grosso do Sul, two stages. Considering the linguistics challenge of the guarani-kaiowa, we held a specific stage for them here in para. We held a statewide stage and the State Secretariat for Indigenous Peoples conducted the nine stages, including in the region where some of the indigenous individuals who protested were from. President Lula made a visit on the Saturday after the leader's meeting. To that region. Were indigenous peoples attending the Cup live? He went there to learn and to bring public policies to that territory. So there is no absence of state there. There was no real reason for the protest. Of course, we still have a significant backlog of indigenous land demarcation. We are working to demarcate those territories. The lands mentioned during the protests are not currently on the president's desk to be signed. They are still in early stages. That is why I say we have the largest indigenous representations here, not only in physical presence, but with effective participation in our space specifics.
Christiana Figueres: [00:38:15] Minister Guajajara, thank you so very much.
Sonia Guajajara: [00:38:19] Obrigada.
Fiona McRaith: [00:38:27] In my response to this interview, I actually want to zoom out or look back to when Lula won office and when Minister Guajajara was brought into office, and the international waves that this made as a symbol of opportunity, of joy, of The success of fortitude, of centering of indigenous peoples perspectives in a brilliant, progressive government in Brazil was ground shaking. And I just want to, like, hold up that testament to the the real labor that it takes to continuously return to centering indigenous peoples and indigenous knowledge and indigenous perspectives in bureaucratic, often Western style government ministries. I don't want to oversimplify it like it's it's not a simple issue, and I feel that it's probably near impossible to be perfect in how to do this, especially when you're doing it for the first time. And I hope that this example from Brazil, which is courageous and sets a precedent for what is expected in the future of other presidencies, regardless of what their. If they have a ministry that is focused on indigenous peoples. Um, and I think it's so important to recognize the immense volume of what we can learn from these conversations and from the messages that we're listening to from indigenous leaders and indigenous people, and the fact that these aren't just us listening. There are tangible things being said that we can and governments can, and other actors can and must attend to. And that came through to me in this conversation and in others that we've other guests that we've had on the podcast.
Paul Dickinson: [00:40:38] What a lovely note to end on. Um, great to be with you all today and we're going to be back tomorrow, so see you soon on Inside Court.
Fiona McRaith: [00:40:44] Bye.
